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Siphon unit now useless

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Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#1 - 2013-11-03 06:45:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Zloco Crendraven
As stated on Goon forums:

Quote:
even with the most expensive moon mineral, they can't justify the cost now before we do a daily alt log in to check the pos grid
Thank god for our csm elect! XXXXXX you rock good sir.
just update the sheet and be mindful of using the same alt in different tz. i.e. don't be stupid
the pubbie tears will be glorious~


When heard about siphon units few lowsec groups coordinated to hit nullsec alliances moons.
But with these late changes it won't be possible. Now siphon units became only a grief tool for those with deep pockets and still does poorly on griefing.

Takes out a possible play style that could be done with adding the yurt. Nomad style of life siphoning moon goo around npc 0.0. Now it is not worth it. The module is useless.

CCP you should ve gone the other way of the first realease stats.
- Decrease the waste of stolen moon
- Make them cheaper
- Have possibility to steal reactions or choose to steal from silo.
- Put enough HP and resists that they can tank POS guns with 1-2 logi on field

Now there is no way for the module to earn you any isk, or at least to pay with itself even when anchored on the most juicy moons. Which means it can only be used for griefing, right? And Griefing for only those with deep poclets.

Useless feature is useless

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-11-03 07:27:07 UTC
If the siphon takes more than a day to break even on even the best moons, no one will use them. Might as well scrap the whole thing and re-use the art assets for a later dev project that players might actually use.

Oh well...Rubicon still has the warp changes and cloaky ishtar going for it, I guess....
JamDunc
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#3 - 2013-11-03 17:08:45 UTC
What did they change?
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#4 - 2013-11-04 09:45:19 UTC
JamDunc wrote:
What did they change?


Nothing, Why do people believe info from goons forums.. Really...
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#5 - 2013-11-04 11:04:26 UTC
Tappits wrote:
JamDunc wrote:
What did they change?


Nothing, Why do people believe info from goons forums.. Really...


The minerals that were needed for production were risen. So they cost even more now. The aprox 10 mil was still high to be effective. Now the entire feature is just useless.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#6 - 2013-11-04 11:50:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Zloco Crendraven
The price should be equal to the average moon income per hour X hours of an EVE player average game session.
Like that u make the feature less AFKish. People will put the siphon go do their stuff or guard it and when they about to log off, pick up the stuff.

If i have to leave the Siphon unit whole day just to return the invested isk, no way really. Because 1 day, especially in lowsec where the traffic is much higher than in null, those siphons will be destroyed or stolen from.

The feature, as i understood is ment especially for underdogs to hurt big slow entities. Making it a whole day long job for a small entity to just repay itself is a lot.

Have in mind that if you want to earn from this or hurt bigger entities there will be needed of hundreds of these siphons monthly.

You say risk vs reward. With this feature there is only risk and no reward at all if it takes more than an average gaming session to repay for itself.

Only bigger budgets will profit from this feature. IE masohistic behaviors (hurting your own pocket) because you can to inflict the dmg to small entities because they can't withstand it.

If any DEV responsible for this feature can respond me to a question pls. As it is now on SISI what are your thoughts of the ways this unit will be used. Can you write down 3 ways at least pls?

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#7 - 2013-11-04 12:23:31 UTC
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
As stated on Goon forums:


I have found the source of your confusion.

Big smile

Check on Sisi for the actual stats.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#8 - 2013-11-04 12:32:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Zloco Crendraven
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
As stated on Goon forums:


I have found the source of your confusion.

Big smile

Check on Sisi for the actual stats.


Already checked. Take the avarage moon price x yield/hour x80%
Than take the cost of the siphon unit and divide with the above number.

How much hours it needs to repay for itself? And be objective, you played the game, is it worth it?

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2013-11-04 12:44:06 UTC
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
As stated on Goon forums:

Quote:
even with the most expensive moon mineral, they can't justify the cost now before we do a daily alt log in to check the pos grid
Thank god for our csm elect! XXXXXX you rock good sir.
just update the sheet and be mindful of using the same alt in different tz. i.e. don't be stupid
the pubbie tears will be glorious~



Anyone posting this badly on our forums would have been immediately banned. And our CSM rep is called Mynnna, since you were too lazy to look it up before faking this post.

I'm not sure which is more sad; the fact you felt the need to do that, or that it deserved a new thread since no one agreed with you in the proper siphon thread.

In any case, I feel this succinctly addresses the points you raised:

xttz wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
So with the added requirements on sisi, it takes over a day for a siphon to break even on dysprosium (the most expensive moon mineral).



Citation Needed.

The material list on sisi puts these things at around 12 million ISK each, using current Jita prices. That means you can break even on the following in under a day with a single siphon:

Hafnium (~1 day)
Tech (1 day)
Thulium (18 hours)
Prome / Neo (9-10 hours)
Dyspro ( 5-6 hours)

PotatoOverdose wrote:
why would anyone bother siphoning


Because siphoning is by far the best griefing mechanic CCP have come up with since the remote doomsday, and Eve players love griefing.

Siphons are going to be intensely broken on arrival, but not for anything related to cost. They're a poorly implemented idea that does nothing to encourage player interaction. It's an attempt to counter perceived "low-effort income" by allowing even lower effort aggression.
At the end of the day it doesn't matter what these things cost - as long as they work they way they do now, players will drop them to simply deny enemy income with no intention to collect or profit on them.
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#10 - 2013-11-04 12:53:48 UTC
Quote:


Citation Needed.

The material list on sisi puts these things at around 12 million ISK each, using current Jita prices. That means you can break even on the following in under a day with a single siphon:

Hafnium (~1 day)
Tech (1 day)
Thulium (18 hours)
Prome / Neo (9-10 hours)
Dyspro ( 5-6 hours)


Yeah banned sure...don't make me laugh
And the numbers are higher ofc

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2013-11-04 13:06:46 UTC  |  Edited by: xttz
Zloco Crendraven wrote:


Yeah banned sure...don't make me laugh
And the numbers are higher ofc


But you didn't post any numbers!

Here are some for you:

1 siphon will pull 54 units of raw materials per hour, or 1296 per day.

A build cost of 12mil isk divided by that is 9,259. That means any raw material worth more than 9.26k p/u will break even in a day or less. Dyspro pays for itself in about 5 hours.

Of course, lesser materials can still break even if they can mine for more than a day, especially if emptied before the siphon fills.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2013-11-04 13:08:47 UTC
so why would we be censoring mynnna's name on our own forum

put some effort into your faked logs man have a little dignity

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2013-11-04 13:16:48 UTC
you know I'm sure it's just a coincidence that the poster of this thread is obviously not a native english speaker and the english of all of the "quotes" is atrocious

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#14 - 2013-11-04 13:31:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Zloco Crendraven
xttz wrote:
Zloco Crendraven wrote:


Yeah banned sure...don't make me laugh
And the numbers are higher ofc


But you didn't post any numbers!

Here are some for you:

1 siphon will pull 48 units of raw materials per hour, or 1152 per day.

A build cost of 12mil isk divided by that is 10,416. That means any raw material worth more than 10.4k p/u will break even in a day or less. Dyspro pays for itself in about 5 hours.

Of course, lesser materials can still break even if they can mine for more than a day, especially if emptied before the siphon fills.


The numbers are still a bit higher. But tnx for those also. You made my point. They are not worth it. Have in mind that the best moons are not seeded all around. So take the avarage. With the avarage as i stated it takes 1 whole day to pay for itself. In 1 day they are dead or stolen and promote AFK play. When you put 10 of them, they should be repaid and earn something in 1 average game session of 4 hours.

Take the average moon cost of 15k per unit. It means it will earn you around 750k isk per hour. An average EVE gaming session is let say 4 hours which means that the siphon unit should be worth at most 1,5 - 2 million so it is repaid in 2 hours and in next 2 you earn something.

Everything above those prices makes the feature useless because the next day when u turn on EVE the siphon unit will be destroyed or stolen from.

The less they cost the more people will go around POSes to put them and i know for sure that many in lowsec (because we live where we eat) will be camping moons for sure for those that come to put the siphons or to take form them.

It is not my fault you don't live around your moons so u can not guard it and won't be getting any content. For me and many others in lowsec and npc 0.0 it has potential to be one of the best features ever.

So the Solution to make these siphon units viable.
- Reduce the price to 2 milion
- Reduce the waste to 10%
- Rise the m3 of the unit (so it is not spammable with ceptors and dictors)
- Cap 10 units per char
- Rise the required anchoring level to 4 at least

Also make them stick in the new yurt deployable structures if they are not. Dunno about this info.

Weaselior wrote:
so why would we be censoring mynnna's name on our own forum

put some effort into your faked logs man have a little dignity


Well mistakes were made, what to tell you :DD. PL also didn't want to put on their BL bait screenshot the spy proof, mistakes were made :DDD

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
Powers Sa
#15 - 2013-11-04 14:36:30 UTC
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
As stated on Goon forums:

Quote:
even with the most expensive moon mineral, they can't justify the cost now before we do a daily alt log in to check the pos grid
Thank god for our csm elect! XXXXXX you rock good sir.
just update the sheet and be mindful of using the same alt in different tz. i.e. don't be stupid
the pubbie tears will be glorious~


When heard about siphon units few lowsec groups coordinated to hit nullsec alliances moons.
But with these late changes it won't be possible. Now siphon units became only a grief tool for those with deep pockets and still does poorly on griefing.

Takes out a possible play style that could be done with adding the yurt. Nomad style of life siphoning moon goo around npc 0.0. Now it is not worth it. The module is useless.

CCP you should ve gone the other way of the first realease stats.
- Decrease the waste of stolen moon
- Make them cheaper
- Have possibility to steal reactions or choose to steal from silo.
- Put enough HP and resists that they can tank POS guns with 1-2 logi on field

Now there is no way for the module to earn you any isk, or at least to pay with itself even when anchored on the most juicy moons. Which means it can only be used for griefing, right? And Griefing for only those with deep poclets.

Useless feature is useless


Yeeeeeeees. Please post more threads with tears like this.

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.
Alghara
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2013-11-04 14:44:31 UTC
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
xttz wrote:
Zloco Crendraven wrote:


Yeah banned sure...don't make me laugh
And the numbers are higher ofc


But you didn't post any numbers!

Here are some for you:

1 siphon will pull 48 units of raw materials per hour, or 1152 per day.

A build cost of 12mil isk divided by that is 10,416. That means any raw material worth more than 10.4k p/u will break even in a day or less. Dyspro pays for itself in about 5 hours.

Of course, lesser materials can still break even if they can mine for more than a day, especially if emptied before the siphon fills.


The numbers are still a bit higher. But tnx for those also. You made my point. They are not worth it. Have in mind that the best moons are not seeded all around. So take the avarage. With the avarage as i stated it takes 1 whole day to pay for itself. In 1 day they are dead or stolen and promote AFK play. When you put 10 of them, they should be repaid and earn something in 1 average game session of 4 hours.

Take the average moon cost of 15k per unit. It means it will earn you around 750k isk per hour. An average EVE gaming session is let say 4 hours which means that the siphon unit should be worth at most 1,5 - 2 million so it is repaid in 2 hours and in next 2 you earn something.

Everything above those prices makes the feature useless because the next day when u turn on EVE the siphon unit will be destroyed or stolen from.

The less they cost the more people will go around POSes to put them and i know for sure that many in lowsec (because we live where we eat) will be camping moons for sure for those that come to put the siphons or to take form them.

It is not my fault you don't live around your moons so u can not guard it and won't be getting any content. For me and many others in lowsec and npc 0.0 it has potential to be one of the best features ever.

So the Solution to make these siphon units viable.
- Reduce the price to 2 milion
- Reduce the waste to 10%
- Rise the m3 of the unit (so it is not spammable with ceptors and dictors)
- Cap 10 units per char
- Rise the required anchoring level to 4 at least

Also make them stick in the new yurt deployable structures if they are not. Dunno about this info.

Weaselior wrote:
so why would we be censoring mynnna's name on our own forum

put some effort into your faked logs man have a little dignity


Well mistakes were made, what to tell you :DD. PL also didn't want to put on their BL bait screenshot the spy proof, mistakes were made :DDD


OR remove this stupidity from rubicon, and began to attack the real problem.

The main problem is passive income, remove all raw from moon and make some activity to found them like mining or exploration or new PI.

That will be better, the money will be go to people playing to EVE.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-11-04 14:48:20 UTC
Linked to fake logs thread. Saw Logs.

Oh jeez, at least put 5 minutes of effort into it and get a native English speaker to fix it for you.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-11-04 15:28:39 UTC
Kaleb Rysode parachute spotted.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
The Mittani
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-11-04 15:47:04 UTC
Put some more effort into your fakes lest you end up like Teredrum: http://i.imgur.com/hOAwpWr.jpg

~hi~
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#20 - 2013-11-04 15:48:56 UTC
Alghara wrote:
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
xttz wrote:
Zloco Crendraven wrote:


Yeah banned sure...don't make me laugh
And the numbers are higher ofc


But you didn't post any numbers!

Here are some for you:

1 siphon will pull 48 units of raw materials per hour, or 1152 per day.

A build cost of 12mil isk divided by that is 10,416. That means any raw material worth more than 10.4k p/u will break even in a day or less. Dyspro pays for itself in about 5 hours.

Of course, lesser materials can still break even if they can mine for more than a day, especially if emptied before the siphon fills.


The numbers are still a bit higher. But tnx for those also. You made my point. They are not worth it. Have in mind that the best moons are not seeded all around. So take the avarage. With the avarage as i stated it takes 1 whole day to pay for itself. In 1 day they are dead or stolen and promote AFK play. When you put 10 of them, they should be repaid and earn something in 1 average game session of 4 hours.

Take the average moon cost of 15k per unit. It means it will earn you around 750k isk per hour. An average EVE gaming session is let say 4 hours which means that the siphon unit should be worth at most 1,5 - 2 million so it is repaid in 2 hours and in next 2 you earn something.

Everything above those prices makes the feature useless because the next day when u turn on EVE the siphon unit will be destroyed or stolen from.

The less they cost the more people will go around POSes to put them and i know for sure that many in lowsec (because we live where we eat) will be camping moons for sure for those that come to put the siphons or to take form them.

It is not my fault you don't live around your moons so u can not guard it and won't be getting any content. For me and many others in lowsec and npc 0.0 it has potential to be one of the best features ever.

So the Solution to make these siphon units viable.
- Reduce the price to 2 milion
- Reduce the waste to 10%
- Rise the m3 of the unit (so it is not spammable with ceptors and dictors)
- Cap 10 units per char
- Rise the required anchoring level to 4 at least

Also make them stick in the new yurt deployable structures if they are not. Dunno about this info.

Weaselior wrote:
so why would we be censoring mynnna's name on our own forum

put some effort into your faked logs man have a little dignity


Well mistakes were made, what to tell you :DD. PL also didn't want to put on their BL bait screenshot the spy proof, mistakes were made :DDD


OR remove this stupidity from rubicon, and began to attack the real problem.

The main problem is passive income, remove all raw from moon and make some activity to found them like mining or exploration or new PI.

That will be better, the money will be go to people playing to EVE.


Seems someone, before they left for Sony, suggested moving T2 raw materials from moons into belts.
Seems like CCP has game mechanics right now that allow for anom belts when mined out to respawn in the same constellation, or even, same region.

But we have been told by other goons, because apparently CCP is far too busy to speak for themselves, that converting moon goo to belts is "too hard".

The act of setting all static variables that represent hourly moon output to zero is clearly very hard.
And creating new T2 raw material belts, or incorporating T2 raw materials into existing belts, well if setting static variables to zero is hard, imagine actually trying to reuse existing mechanics on a new object, that would be well nigh impossible.
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