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Intaki and the Federation
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Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#81 - 2013-11-03 13:38:46 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
I'm sure the Caldari capsuleers are trying to keep face, but I find it hard to believe that a State where the largest constituent is an arms manufacturer wants universal peace, love, and a total end to all war.


Mr. Inhonores, I assure you, Peace is my Profession.

Whilst war may be abhorrent, it happens, and Kaalakiota merely seeks to provide the tools to give peace a chance.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#82 - 2013-11-03 13:59:27 UTC
I was never under the impression the Caldari found war all that abhorrent, with all the romanticism of it in State media and the education system. One of the greatest heroes of the State, for example, is someone responsible for the deaths of two million civilians (that allowed the evacuation ships to escape, granted, but we can't cherrypick history). In contrast, one of the greatest heroes of the Federation is someone who ended that war and brought about the foundation of CONCORD.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#83 - 2013-11-03 14:21:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
I was never under the impression the Caldari found war all that abhorrent, with all the romanticism of it in State media and the education system. One of the greatest heroes of the State, for example, is someone responsible for the deaths of two million civilians (that allowed the evacuation ships to escape, granted, but we can't cherrypick history). In contrast, one of the greatest heroes of the Federation is someone who ended that war and brought about the foundation of CONCORD.


What you see as romanticism, is to me the necessity of having to understand conflict as a fundamental aspect of human expression. The difference here I think is that one may see it as either peace with periods of war; or war with periods of peace. I prescribe to the latter. As such, I fight for the peace, in the defense of my people and my State for while we may never escape the bounds of conflict, we can at least struggle as best we can for the day we may let the guns at last fall silent.

It is not the Caldari people that wish or desire for war, but we must always prepare for it against those that would seek to deny us the right to live as we desire through force and violence.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#84 - 2013-11-03 16:05:32 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:

I still fail to see the difference between Malkalen and Nouvelle Rouvenor...

Both were terrorist attacks and condemned by their respective governments.

The State claims that the Federation try to hide their implication in Malkalen by condemning Noir, the Federation blamed the State to have secretly backed Nouvelle Rouvenor in the past. Where is the difference ?

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Then by your twisted logic, the Amarr were "dragged into" a war with the Federation by the State.


Except that two powers as ideologically opposed and expansionistic as the Federation and the Empire would have moved against each other eventually, anyway.

Even if the aid you gave the Minmatar hadn't already given them a cause for war.


Except nothing of the sort has happened yet, besides that proxy war. The only thing that has happened between the Federation and the Empire has always been small incidents quickly solved by mutually beneficial agreements (Iyen-Oursta/Quafe), or convergent ideals on cluster politics (Aidonis/Heideran).

You are trying to create/seee conflict where there is only in the mass media.


The comparison that was being offered was one between Noir and Tovil-Toba and not between Noir and the swine who blew up Nouvelle Rouvenor, may their ancestors never recognise them. Despite the circumstances surrounding Noir's crime, I have already indicated that I am willing to entertain the possibility that his actions were his own and opportunistic - even though that explanation conveniently ignores the failure of the orbital's shields.

So, while I can't agree that 'I see no difference' I'm willing to agree that there are quite a few similarities between the two incidents - provided you accept that Noir was working alone, and we don't have concrete proof that this wasn't so.

As for the Empire versus the Federation - I think you'll find that they harbour more unhappiness over the Federation's funding of their war machine than you'd think. The Golden Fleet would likely cross your borders within a year of the Republic ceasing to be a military threat to the Empire.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#85 - 2013-11-03 16:08:15 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
I was never under the impression the Caldari found war all that abhorrent, with all the romanticism of it in State media and the education system. One of the greatest heroes of the State, for example, is someone responsible for the deaths of two million civilians (that allowed the evacuation ships to escape, granted, but we can't cherrypick history). In contrast, one of the greatest heroes of the Federation is someone who ended that war and brought about the foundation of CONCORD.


Unfortunately we were born in fire and have had to endure it for a great part of our history. Because we're fighting an enemy that outnumbers and outproduces us so much we have had to militarise a greater proportion of our population. I don't think it's something that we like to have to do, but our willingness to sacrifice individually so that the greater whole can go on is undeniably one of the main reasons that I'm not speaking to you about the culture of a client race of the Federation.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#86 - 2013-11-03 16:18:00 UTC
Preaching Alarmist theories now, Tuulinen ?

Of course there is no difference, can you show me a single one, except that they share different skins for the same model ?

You think that it might well be the Federation that commanded him to crash his supercarrier - with thousands of crew, materials and valuable assets in the process - but you still have doubts. Some Federation bigots thought exactly the same thing with Nouvelle Rouvenor and they also tried to suppress doubt since they were unable to bring up any proof and were as much as in the dark than us regarding Malkalen. The State also had no "concrete proof" that those Caldari terrorists were working alone, right ?

And what do you mean by "orbital shields" ? The defense systems of the station ? Those are not gallente systems, right ? Are you accusing Ishukone of being just incompetent, or slipping into conspiracy theories even more about some gallente infiltration team that would have conveniently sabotaged it ?
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#87 - 2013-11-03 16:18:04 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
I'm sure the Caldari capsuleers are trying to keep face, but I find it hard to believe that a State where the largest constituent is an arms manufacturer wants universal peace, love, and a total end to all war.

You'd better worry about the Federation, that uses it weapons to cause colossal amount of death among civilians, to force prosperous nations into filthy degraded and inefficient democracies, and to maintain occupation in the worlds, that do not belong to them.

And this is why the Federation must be destroyed.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#88 - 2013-11-03 18:12:07 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Preaching Alarmist theories now, Tuulinen ?

Of course there is no difference, can you show me a single one, except that they share different skins for the same model ?

You think that it might well be the Federation that commanded him to crash his supercarrier - with thousands of crew, materials and valuable assets in the process - but you still have doubts. Some Federation bigots thought exactly the same thing with Nouvelle Rouvenor and they also tried to suppress doubt since they were unable to bring up any proof and were as much as in the dark than us regarding Malkalen. The State also had no "concrete proof" that those Caldari terrorists were working alone, right ?

And what do you mean by "orbital shields" ? The defense systems of the station ? Those are not gallente systems, right ? Are you accusing Ishukone of being just incompetent, or slipping into conspiracy theories even more about some gallente infiltration team that would have conveniently sabotaged it ?


I've already gone into differences, Lyn. You only have to look back a page or so to see them, one was an attack on a peace conferences by an appointed delegate of a sovreign state. The other was an attack by a pack of terrorists on a city full of those they considered enemies during the build up to a war.

Regarding Admiral Noir acting on behalf of the Federation - I accept that there are reasonable doubts. I don't try to discredit those doubts. The shields on the Orbital Station at Malkalen were operated by Ishukone and I have no reason to believe that they wished their CEO to perish - nontheless something happened to take those shields offline at precisely the only time it would have mattered. If that doesn't make you think that Noir wasn't working alone then you have a much greater faith in coincidence than I do.

Nontheless I accept that it is more likely to have been the work of some rogue element within the Federation that didn't want the war to end, not the Federation government proper.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Arkady Vachon
The Gold Angels
Sixth Empire
#89 - 2013-11-04 01:42:40 UTC
Gallente... Caldari... Only thing that changes is whose flags are flying and who is puffing up over being in charge of our home system on any given day. My homeworld gets ping ponged back and forth in this war, that's just the way it is.

Independence is a nice dream, and as much as I like the thought of an free Intaki its pretty much just that, a dream...

No matter who is in charge, though, life on Intaki goes on...

Nothing Personal - Just Business...

Chaos Creates Content
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#90 - 2013-11-04 01:59:02 UTC
Arkady Vachon wrote:
Gallente... Caldari... Only thing that changes is whose flags are flying and who is puffing up over being in charge of our home system on any given day. My homeworld gets ping ponged back and forth in this war, that's just the way it is.

Independence is a nice dream, and as much as I like the thought of an free Intaki its pretty much just that, a dream...

No matter who is in charge, though, life on Intaki goes on...

May Intaki life go on a thousand years more!
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#91 - 2013-11-04 02:33:28 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
Arkady Vachon wrote:
Gallente... Caldari... Only thing that changes is whose flags are flying and who is puffing up over being in charge of our home system on any given day. My homeworld gets ping ponged back and forth in this war, that's just the way it is.

Independence is a nice dream, and as much as I like the thought of an free Intaki its pretty much just that, a dream...

No matter who is in charge, though, life on Intaki goes on...

May Intaki life go on a thousand years more!

And without gallente!

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2013-11-04 03:16:59 UTC
As I always say, if the majority of Intaki wanted out, they could of easily done it at any time. Hell, at some points they would of even had Caldari military support to back their secession. There's literally no reason why the Intaki couldn't have jumped ship.

Those that wish to splinter from the Federation are an extreme minority. Most Intaki I have encountered are either indifferent or almost fanatically loyal to the Federation.

The fact that one of the greatest Presidents in Federation history was Intaki is a testament to how much they like the Federation and how much the Federation likes them.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#93 - 2013-11-04 03:30:57 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
As I always say, if the majority of Intaki wanted out, they could of easily done it at any time. Hell, at some points they would of even had Caldari military support to back their secession. There's literally no reason why the Intaki couldn't have jumped ship.

Those that wish to splinter from the Federation are an extreme minority. Most Intaki I have encountered are either indifferent or almost fanatically loyal to the Federation.

The fact that one of the greatest Presidents in Federation history was Intaki is a testament to how much they like the Federation and how much the Federation likes them.


Blah.
Majority.
You are gallentean and you reason like a gallentean.
Well, taking into account, that gallentean's can't reason properly anyway, this is going nowhere, but still, I'll explain.

No one cares about your freaking majority, because majority can be simple janitors. Got it? There is no place for democracy and similar barbaric methods in civilized world. Future of Intaki should be determined by competent and wise citizens, and not mediocre grey majority.

So, take your democracy, chew it and sit in your dark burrow, called federation, while we build bright future.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2013-11-04 03:48:24 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
As I always say, if the majority of Intaki wanted out, they could of easily done it at any time. Hell, at some points they would of even had Caldari military support to back their secession. There's literally no reason why the Intaki couldn't have jumped ship.

Those that wish to splinter from the Federation are an extreme minority. Most Intaki I have encountered are either indifferent or almost fanatically loyal to the Federation.

The fact that one of the greatest Presidents in Federation history was Intaki is a testament to how much they like the Federation and how much the Federation likes them.


Blah.
Majority.
You are gallentean and you reason like a gallentean.
Well, taking into account, that gallentean's can't reason properly anyway, this is going nowhere, but still, I'll explain.

No one cares about your freaking majority, because majority can be simple janitors. Got it? There is no place for democracy and similar barbaric methods in civilized world. Future of Intaki should be determined by competent and wise citizens, and not mediocre grey majority.

So, take your democracy, chew it and sit in your dark burrow, called federation, while we build bright future.


Of all the billions of Intaki, the amount that want to secede are less than 1%. Probably less than 1% of 1% if you really want to get to the math.

And listening to the majority isn't only a Gallente thing, the Caldari do it all the time. The CEP vote on major decisions and shareholders often have a say in the workings of a megacorp, the one with the majority of the shares having the most influence.

Put it this way, Heth didn't listen to the majority of Caldari, look how that turned out. He's either starving to death on some abandoned asteroid mine or getting rectal implants from Uncle Sansha.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2013-11-04 03:58:18 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

Regarding Admiral Noir acting on behalf of the Federation - I accept that there are reasonable doubts. I don't try to discredit those doubts. The shields on the Orbital Station at Malkalen were operated by Ishukone and I have no reason to believe that they wished their CEO to perish - nontheless something happened to take those shields offline at precisely the only time it would have mattered. If that doesn't make you think that Noir wasn't working alone then you have a much greater faith in coincidence than I do.


Mr. Tuulinen, wouldn't it be far more likely that someone working with Heth lowered the shields in order to take out his chief political rival?

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#96 - 2013-11-04 05:24:49 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:


Of all the billions of Intaki, the amount that want to secede are less than 1%. Probably less than 1% of 1% if you really want to get to the math.

While I do my best to stay out of thse sorts of discussions, there are times my passion rises and I must intercede. This is one of those times, sir. The violence you do to statistics and to mathematics in the above is beyond the pale. If you wish to claim that Intaki secessionists number 0.01% of a population, sir, please state it as so - not as the more confusing and less clear "1% of 1%." Further, speaking with such precision, with such accuracy of significant digits, requires a very thorough and exacting methodology which should therefore be included with the statistic.

Were I not so sure of your character, sir, and the sterling nature of your disposition, I might be pressed into thinking that your statements were mere hyperbole to lend false credence to an otherwise unsupportable position. This is clearly not the case, as there are very good resons to hold your position. Perhaps in the future it may be a good idea to have a statistician vet your claims beforehand, if that sort of mathematics isn't to your interest? It's certainly not for everyone, and there's no shame in it.

I'm sorry for the outburst.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#97 - 2013-11-04 05:28:33 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

Regarding Admiral Noir acting on behalf of the Federation - I accept that there are reasonable doubts. I don't try to discredit those doubts. The shields on the Orbital Station at Malkalen were operated by Ishukone and I have no reason to believe that they wished their CEO to perish - nontheless something happened to take those shields offline at precisely the only time it would have mattered. If that doesn't make you think that Noir wasn't working alone then you have a much greater faith in coincidence than I do.


Mr. Tuulinen, wouldn't it be far more likely that someone working with Heth lowered the shields in order to take out his chief political rival?


And they also convinced Noir to ram the station?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#98 - 2013-11-04 09:56:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Why not ? It does not make that less sense that all those conspiracy theories.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:


I've already gone into differences, Lyn. You only have to look back a page or so to see them, one was an attack on a peace conferences by an appointed delegate of a sovreign state. The other was an attack by a pack of terrorists on a city full of those they considered enemies during the build up to a war.


Well, that's a difference in mere skin, as I said above. The same face wearing a different mask if you will... The pattern is identical, the results are identical.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Regarding Admiral Noir acting on behalf of the Federation - I accept that there are reasonable doubts. I don't try to discredit those doubts. The shields on the Orbital Station at Malkalen were operated by Ishukone and I have no reason to believe that they wished their CEO to perish - nontheless something happened to take those shields offline at precisely the only time it would have mattered. If that doesn't make you think that Noir wasn't working alone then you have a much greater faith in coincidence than I do.

Nontheless I accept that it is more likely to have been the work of some rogue element within the Federation that didn't want the war to end, not the Federation government proper.


Please forgive me since I am far from being an expert in station systems and supercarrier ballistics, and do not know the full details of the situation when it happened, but wasn't that delegation close enough to the station, with all the clearance it needed from both parties, not to have to raise a station shield ? And how much time does one need to raise a station defense system in such a hurry ?

Honestly, the number of scenari seems rather endless. I am not sure what makes you obsessed with only a few specific ones...
Kyllsa Siikanen
Tuonelan Virta
#99 - 2013-11-04 11:36:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyllsa Siikanen
Scherezad wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:


Of all the billions of Intaki, the amount that want to secede are less than 1%. Probably less than 1% of 1% if you really want to get to the math.

While I do my best to stay out of thse sorts of discussions, there are times my passion rises and I must intercede. This is one of those times, sir. The violence you do to statistics and to mathematics in the above is beyond the pale. If you wish to claim that Intaki secessionists number 0.01% of a population, sir, please state it as so - not as the more confusing and less clear "1% of 1%." Further, speaking with such precision, with such accuracy of significant digits, requires a very thorough and exacting methodology which should therefore be included with the statistic.

Were I not so sure of your character, sir, and the sterling nature of your disposition, I might be pressed into thinking that your statements were mere hyperbole to lend false credence to an otherwise unsupportable position. This is clearly not the case, as there are very good resons to hold your position. Perhaps in the future it may be a good idea to have a statistician vet your claims beforehand, if that sort of mathematics isn't to your interest? It's certainly not for everyone, and there's no shame in it.

I'm sorry for the outburst.


Future diplomats, note this well. The most artistic way anyone has ever said "Bullshit, citation needed". I am impressed!

Diplomacy, after all, is the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip, mm?

Scherezad, I like you, too. Between you and Pieter, my day becomes brighter.

“Crying is all right in its own way while it lasts. But you have to stop sooner or later, and then you still have to decide what to do.” 

― C.S. Lewis 
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#100 - 2013-11-04 11:43:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Scherezad wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:


Of all the billions of Intaki, the amount that want to secede are less than 1%. Probably less than 1% of 1% if you really want to get to the math.

While I do my best to stay out of thse sorts of discussions, there are times my passion rises and I must intercede. This is one of those times, sir. The violence you do to statistics and to mathematics in the above is beyond the pale. If you wish to claim that Intaki secessionists number 0.01% of a population, sir, please state it as so - not as the more confusing and less clear "1% of 1%." Further, speaking with such precision, with such accuracy of significant digits, requires a very thorough and exacting methodology which should therefore be included with the statistic.

Were I not so sure of your character, sir, and the sterling nature of your disposition, I might be pressed into thinking that your statements were mere hyperbole to lend false credence to an otherwise unsupportable position. This is clearly not the case, as there are very good resons to hold your position. Perhaps in the future it may be a good idea to have a statistician vet your claims beforehand, if that sort of mathematics isn't to your interest? It's certainly not for everyone, and there's no shame in it.

I'm sorry for the outburst.


Ah, where were you when the reverse argument of "The Intaki (sic majority) want out of the Federation" was being made?

There's too little guesswork and not enough top down facts being made here.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.