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HAC analysis?

First post
Author
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2013-10-30 09:56:39 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Anyone actually dared to undock and try the eagle yet?



Blaster eagle is amazingly powerul and can surprise a lot of people.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#22 - 2013-10-30 09:58:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Lady Naween wrote:
It is a good ship despite what MR FA said. For lowsec I gladly take it out as it can easily tank gateguns while still being nimble enough to outwit gangs. And it has nice firepower as well.

Dual rep and you can tank things very comfortably while chewing them up, my only complaint is that I need to pack so many different kind of missiles ^^


I don't like the Sac as much for this these days.

Deimos just does the Dual Rep thing better IMO, its still good as a gang ship though, and probably solo although cant say I've soloed in one recently.


I use below. Gives me more optionality compared to the Deimos. There have been plenty of engagements I would have lost the Deimos in but did not because I had the option to kite whatever target. So I surivived more I suppose but that did not result in more kills that is failure of course. Rather lose the ship than not kill anything at times and I tend to do that for giggles more than often but the cost of the ship stops those tendencies. I have had an engagement where I had to tanki 5 tech-1 cruisers (Thorax Rupture and Vexor); another where there were 2 Ishtars and a Vengeance that I survived. There was another agianst 15 dudes in mix cruisers and frigates that I also surivived because I was dictating alot range at the beginging before fully commiting and prolonging things long enough to do what needed to be done. So I prefer it because it gives me options and I don't have to worry so much about tracking disruptors and tracking. I am able to do good damage to assault frigates like a Hawk and Vengeance forcing them to tank hard or explode. The neut and web helps ALOT against frigates. So, yeah! It's my prefered close range HAC atm. While I use the Cerberus for Skirmishing.

Note: in none of said engagements did I receive ANY FLEET BONUSES.

[Sacrilege, Blasphemy]
Khanid Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer
Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II

Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
10MN Microwarpdrive II
Warp Disruptor II

Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Nanobot Accelerator I

Hornet EC-300 x5
Warrior II x5

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ![/u]

Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#23 - 2013-10-30 10:21:28 UTC
I have never actually actually considered that the Sacri has a pretty good mix of Agility/Speed/Tank and Projection.

May have to give something similar a try.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-10-30 11:43:10 UTC
Chessur wrote:
More Speed, Smaller sig, drone bay, are pretty important in my experience.



Both are great bastards, I'd take a Nomen over a Zealot in solo/small gang but a Zealot over a Nomen for large fleets

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#25 - 2013-10-30 12:07:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Chessur
The zealot vs ONI numbers are wrong. Counting drones, ONI has more DPS.


Zealot
http://i.imgur.com/j92BysN.jpg

81K EHP 87 / 83 / 81 / 90
406 DPS
664 M/S
68.8 Sig

Nomen
http://i.imgur.com/86sRJFv.jpg

63.6K EHP 75 / 67.5 / 80 / 79.4
421 DPS
849 M/S
55 Sig

Nomen is still better. That increased speed + Sig will make a huge difference even while webbed and patined, when compared to the zealot. Cap is not an issue if you place a small booster. Having 5 Med drones makes the Nomen a superior choice.

But all of this talk is ponitless, because I feel that OP is probably solo / small gang. And in that arena, the zealot is completely outclassed by the Nomen.

As for a cerb fit- the only way to fit the cerb:

http://i.imgur.com/kTPNQmd.jpg
18.5K EHP 35 / 80 / 70 / 50
489 Unheated DPS
1893 M/S
Liam Inkuras
Furnace
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#26 - 2013-10-30 12:08:23 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Chessur wrote:
More Speed, Smaller sig, drone bay, are pretty important in my experience.



Both are great bastards, I'd take a Nomen over a Zealot in solo/small gang but a Zealot over a Nomen for large fleets

Finally, sense is spoken.

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone

Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#27 - 2013-10-30 12:31:30 UTC
Liam Inkuras wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Chessur wrote:
More Speed, Smaller sig, drone bay, are pretty important in my experience.



Both are great bastards, I'd take a Nomen over a Zealot in solo/small gang but a Zealot over a Nomen for large fleets

Finally, sense is spoken.


Pretty much this.

But to say that its terrible just because it doesn't fit into 1 style play is pretty dumb.

(Also drones aren't a reliable source of DPS, and will die)
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2013-10-30 13:44:30 UTC
Chessur wrote:
The zealot vs ONI numbers are wrong. Counting drones, ONI has more DPS.


Zealot
http://i.imgur.com/j92BysN.jpg

81K EHP 87 / 83 / 81 / 90
406 DPS
664 M/S
68.8 Sig

Nomen
http://i.imgur.com/86sRJFv.jpg

63.6K EHP 75 / 67.5 / 80 / 79.4
421 DPS
849 M/S
55 Sig

Nomen is still better. That increased speed + Sig will make a huge difference even while webbed and patined, when compared to the zealot. Cap is not an issue if you place a small booster. Having 5 Med drones makes the Nomen a superior choice.

But all of this talk is ponitless, because I feel that OP is probably solo / small gang. And in that arena, the zealot is completely outclassed by the Nomen.

As for a cerb fit- the only way to fit the cerb:

http://i.imgur.com/kTPNQmd.jpg
18.5K EHP 35 / 80 / 70 / 50
489 Unheated DPS
1893 M/S



Your cerberus fit is completely wrong... try to check one of OUR cerberuses to see how they are fit properly.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-11-01 22:22:45 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Anyone actually dared to undock and try the eagle yet?



Blaster eagle is amazingly powerul and can surprise a lot of people.


But is it 225,000,000-250,000,000 powerful/good/wtf are they THAT expensive?!
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#30 - 2013-11-01 22:33:18 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Chessur wrote:
The zealot vs ONI numbers are wrong. Counting drones, ONI has more DPS.


Zealot
http://i.imgur.com/j92BysN.jpg

81K EHP 87 / 83 / 81 / 90
406 DPS
664 M/S
68.8 Sig

Nomen
http://i.imgur.com/86sRJFv.jpg

63.6K EHP 75 / 67.5 / 80 / 79.4
421 DPS
849 M/S
55 Sig

Nomen is still better. That increased speed + Sig will make a huge difference even while webbed and patined, when compared to the zealot. Cap is not an issue if you place a small booster. Having 5 Med drones makes the Nomen a superior choice.

But all of this talk is ponitless, because I feel that OP is probably solo / small gang. And in that arena, the zealot is completely outclassed by the Nomen.

As for a cerb fit- the only way to fit the cerb:

http://i.imgur.com/kTPNQmd.jpg
18.5K EHP 35 / 80 / 70 / 50
489 Unheated DPS
1893 M/S



Your cerberus fit is completely wrong... try to check one of OUR cerberuses to see how they are fit properly.


Thanks but, pretty sure that is how to properly fit a cerb. Its the same fit that turn left uses, and the one that I had discussed with TL before the ship was even released.
Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
#31 - 2013-11-02 16:18:42 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Kasutra wrote:
Chessur wrote:
**** Tier:

Zealot, Sac, Eagle

Zealot is ****?

Wat


The Nomen makes a better zealot, than the zealot. True fact.


hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

TII Resists more buffer and more DPS aren't important I hear.


More Speed, Smaller sig, drone bay, are pretty important in my experience.


This will sure help loads when you are dead...
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#32 - 2013-11-02 17:03:37 UTC
Well no ****- if you are already dead, than having more speed / ehp / dps is not going to help. Thanks for pointing that elephant in the room out to me. If it wasn't for you, i would have missed it.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#33 - 2013-11-02 17:20:03 UTC
Is the impression that I am meant to be seeing is that rlml cerb is the best fit? Against other cruisers how does it fare?
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#34 - 2013-11-02 17:22:48 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Is the impression that I am meant to be seeing is that rlml cerb is the best fit? Against other cruisers how does it fare?


RLML is the only way to fit a cerb, and it does very well against cruisers. It rapes them.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#35 - 2013-11-02 17:40:28 UTC
I was under the impression that ham was viable? My old ham rook scored some good kills before it got ganked.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#36 - 2013-11-02 17:53:37 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
I was under the impression that ham was viable? My old ham rook scored some good kills before it got ganked.


Well to fit hams, you are throwing away the absurd tank, and the speed. You also need a painter if you are planning to kite. If you are trying to brawl, you basically need to be in web range with web applied to do full damage to other cruisers (And if they are linked, you will stil not do full damage). So really its up to you.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#37 - 2013-11-02 18:44:59 UTC
I can post a fit I had in mind a bit later. Basicly just a fed navy web and long point for range control otherwise just active tank.

From what I know of missiles the bigger issue is explosion velocity more than radius so dual webbing a target might net me more applied dps? My typical target is cruisers or BC
Ginger Barbarella
#38 - 2013-11-02 19:04:16 UTC
Chessur wrote:
God Tier: Ishtar / Cerb

Meh Tier: Vagabond / Munin


Cerb is GOD tier, and Vaga is meh?? Wow, times change.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac

Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2013-11-02 23:01:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
I was under the impression that ham was viable? My old ham rook scored some good kills before it got ganked.


Just look at ship stats while linked. If speed is 160% of signature radius or higher, CN HAMs start losing damage. The very high DRF on HAMs means it's very close to a 1:1 ratio, speed at 320% signature is 50% damage, 640% is 25%, etc.

Just to demonstrate, a linked Scythe Fleet Issue with a Domi MWD and 2 nanos has a signature of 308m and goes 3444m/sec. It takes about 15% of EFT DPS from CN Scourge HAMs. Even if you web this ship, HAMs are still only doing 35-40% damage. If they overload their MWD, you can apply two webs and RLMs will STILL do more DPS than HAMs.

While HAMs can't even hit ABing battleships for full DPS, if you load precisions into your RLMs you can still do 100% of EFT DPS to a Scythe Fleet with links, titan bonus, deadspace MWD, and a full Halo set.

Skirmish links completely invalidate all missile systems bigger than RLMs, period. The Sacrilege is actually overpowered if noone has links, but becomes **** if everyone does. That's just what happens when you combine a speed increase with a sig reduction of that magnitude.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#40 - 2013-11-02 23:05:49 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
I was under the impression that ham was viable? My old ham rook scored some good kills before it got ganked.


Just look at ship stats while linked. If speed is 160% of signature radius or higher, CN HAMs start losing damage. The very high DRF on HAMs means it's very close to a 1:1 ratio, speed at 320% signature is 50% damage, 640% is 25%, etc.

Just to demonstrate, a linked Scythe Fleet Issue with a Domi MWD and 2 nanos has a signature of 308m and goes 3444m/sec. It takes about 15% of EFT DPS from CN Scourge HAMs. Even if you web this ship, HAMs are still only doing 35-40% damage. If they overload their MWD, you can apply two webs and RLMs will STILL do more DPS than HAMs.

While HAMs can't even hit ABing battleships for full DPS, if you load precisions into your RLMs you can still do 100% of EFT DPS to a Scythe Fleet with links, titan bonus, deadspace MWD, and a full Halo set.

Skirmish links completely invalidate all missile systems bigger than RLMs, period. The Sacrilege is actually overpowered if noone has links, but becomes **** if everyone does. That's just what happens when you combine a speed increase with a sig reduction of that magnitude.


SAC is not OP, not even close. It lacks a much needed low slot, and has no ship bonus for missile application. Its stuck using HAM's, and HAM's are so trash- shooting a linked or unlinked ship.