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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#7121 - 2013-11-01 18:19:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Brib Vogt
Anize Oramara wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:

this was done with eft. no implants. all lv5 skills. drones added on both (5 for vagur 4 for mach) bastion vargur requires less tank. fitted dcu and te on mach to help make up for bastion. vargur has more mids and util highs in addition to more free mids from bastion tank. the difference is 40 dps with the vargur having far superior tank, range, tracking including drone range and tracking and dps

Ah I thought you were saying the vargur was out dmging the mach by 40 pts, but its the other way around.

So 5 sentry does doesn't surpass the max dmg. Let's take the discussion a bit further. Not knowing ur fit or having access to EFT, I would imagine the 40 dmg difference is around a 4-5% dmg difference. I would also estimate that the difference in gun dmg alone is around 9.5% in favor of the mach. The mach then can take advantage of using its mobility to deal more damage, and given the number of lows can makes its raw drone dmg superior. Drone dmg via sentry can also be reduced by killing the drones and is more situational.

Overall the mach can still top out higher than the vargur if it want to via the number of lows. The mach gains substantially more mobility and turret dps as well. Completely outclassed? Really?

Sentry drones would also play well with the optional highs and stationary playstyle

No see you completely missed the point. 40dps is nothing when you take into account that the mach will have next to NO damage application modules while the vargur will have tons. This is what I hate about EFT warriors, they only care about dps without taking into account the QUALITY of that dps. The vargur will far surpass the damage applicaiton of a mach if it has 5 sentries and that means that that 40dps means nothing as you are doing tons more REAL WORLD damage as you have far better drones from tracking and range modules and your guns quality is higher as well.

So just to be clear, although the vargur does 40 dps less it APPLIES more damage than the mach meaning it will outclass the mach because IN ADDITION to near identical raw damage it now has better applicaiton, better tank and loot/salvage capability.

That means it outclasses the Mach. 5 sentries is a very very bad idea.


Vargur will not apply more damage.My mach has 4 rf gyros and 3 te+1TC, Vargur has 4 rf gyros one TE and 2 TCs. I am way faster with macha which is the main factor for applying damage. Fly in and deal heavy damage.

Even on Forsaken hubs a macha outperforms a vargur in raw dps and the ability to field 4 Sentries.

If you try to fly the vargur like a mach to keep up the killspeed you completely render the bastion module useless.


In my eyes the "new" bastion vargur could easily work with 1200 paper dsp on 4 rf gyros and faction short range ammo. It would end up in around 800 dps at 40km while you are stationary.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#7122 - 2013-11-01 18:23:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Is this what we've devolved into in this thread?

I think this thread devolved long before that... With less than 3 weeks until Rubicon, I think it's a foregone conclusion that the last iteration is final at this point. And barring some serious issues with play balance, I don't think we can reasonably expect to see any minor tweaks until the next quarterly update (if at all).

I for one welcome our new Marauder overlords. Lol


I just wish the Bastion Module gave the Torp Golem and AC Vargur somewhat more than ~10km of useful extra range.

I will continue to remain dissatisfied about it being considered "pretty good" because of "Kronos gets amazing range with Null".

Other than that, I'm actually quite pleased with the changes.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#7123 - 2013-11-01 18:29:04 UTC
For the sake of our input devices (click click click....) can we make a tiny cosmetic change to the MJD so that it "blinks" when it is cooling down and stops blinking as soon as it is ready to use for the next jump?

Thank you!

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7124 - 2013-11-01 18:32:22 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
Anize Oramara wrote:
No see you completely missed the point. 40dps is nothing when you take into account that the mach will have next to NO damage application modules while the vargur will have tons. This is what I hate about EFT warriors, they only care about dps without taking into account the QUALITY of that dps. The vargur will far surpass the damage applicaiton of a mach if it has 5 sentries and that means that that 40dps means nothing as you are doing tons more REAL WORLD damage as you have far better drones from tracking and range modules and your guns quality is higher as well.

So just to be clear, although the vargur does 40 dps less it APPLIES more damage than the mach meaning it will outclass the mach because IN ADDITION to near identical raw damage it now has better applicaiton, better tank and loot/salvage capability.

That means it outclasses the Mach. 5 sentries is a very very bad idea.

Anize, I think you're not quite right here.

The problem is that stacked bastion does not add much to range. With 2xTE + 1xTC I used to fly with we're talking about 65km vs. maybe 70km of optimal+falloff.

Actual improvement of damage application I see in such situation is that when bastion is activated and I already have a ton of range bonus, I can unscript TC or script it for tracking but its effect is harder to measure.

Thats very true but I get 82km falloff on my rubicon vargur fit that I have already run multiple very hard missions with. The range can be scripted out to get uo to 0.13 tracking (up from .08) So although the vargur is slower (and immobile in bsation) it doesn't matter because I don't have to move :)

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Kane Fenris
NWP
#7125 - 2013-11-01 18:38:23 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Is this what we've devolved into in this thread?

Someone observed that since thread goes about such nitpicking on details it's good indicator that there isn't anymore any major design flaw.

I find it hard not to agree with.


could be or could be that all people with good arguments have resigned

i think the concept of the bastion module is fundamentally flawed yet the marrauders did not get waeker in lvl4's but i dont know if that is an great achievement in game design.

but there are alot of cool things in rubicon so im only a bit disapointed
Rio Bravo
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7126 - 2013-11-01 18:42:29 UTC
The new Marauder class. It's a PVE ship, but with PVP capability from what I can see...Wouldn't know what to tell you if you asked me how to fly it. Have to see it in operation I guess first.

Fuel troubles me if your a mission runner with it. I hated buying cap charges and ammo for different damage types...now people want me to carry fuel too...might just fly a BS then. (Cheaper too). Trying to avoid hassles while doing missions, just one more thing to run out of.

The other thing is the skills it takes to fly it. Don't get me wrong, it's a great ship. But takes forever to train for. On top of that, it is very expensive. Any ship can be lost, but there are more cost effective alternatives then those beasts. Faction BS while the same price nearly, is way easier to train. T1 BS's might be rather sub-standard, but are like a 5th of the price, and can do the job for most missions or anoms. If your really strapped for cash can do decent sniping in a tier 3 BC. and T3 while all-in-one ships, are easy to train, yet on the costly side. The price of versatility.

I like the marauder, lots of nice work went into it. I would never PVP in something that shiney. Incursions you cannot do in it, maybe VG, but you'd be laughed out of a AS or HQ site fleet. For me, will be a ship I bring out on special occasions and parades....maybe run the odd high sec mission in it. I can't risk that kind of money out in null alone to do a scan site or anom. I would get hot-dropped to easily, and I would be shedding tears for days.

From an engineering perspective? Nice work CCP, flagship of the sub-caps! Deadly, I am sure, in the hands of a pilot who knows how to fly it! Perfectly balanced too I believe, enough, but not too much.

“You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend: Those with loaded guns and those who dig. I dig.”  - Clint Eastwood, misquote.

hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#7127 - 2013-11-01 18:50:13 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Is this what we've devolved into in this thread?

Someone observed that since thread goes about such nitpicking on details it's good indicator that there isn't anymore any major design flaw.

I find it hard not to agree with.


could be or could be that all people with good arguments have resigned

That's right too.

Quote:
i think the concept of the bastion module is fundamentally flawed yet the marrauders did not get waeker in lvl4's but i dont know if that is an great achievement in game design.

Like I mentioned earlier, when I went to test server I expected more umph and was... maybe not disappointed, but lacked some awe. However the initiative of CCP is called "ship rebalancing", not "buffing ships whether it makes sense or not".
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#7128 - 2013-11-01 19:04:20 UTC
Brib Vogt wrote:
If you try to fly the vargur like a mach to keep up the killspeed you completely render the bastion module useless.

A comment to the same effect I made several pages back. If you fly new Marauder like you used to fly old Marauder, the bastion module is not needed.

The trick is to monetize on new bonuses, MJD for mobility and bastion for lighter tanking.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7129 - 2013-11-01 19:11:24 UTC
Rio Bravo wrote:
The new Marauder class. It's a PVE ship, but with PVP capability from what I can see...Wouldn't know what to tell you if you asked me how to fly it. Have to see it in operation I guess first.

Fuel troubles me if your a mission runner with it. I hated buying cap charges and ammo for different damage types...now people want me to carry fuel too...might just fly a BS then. (Cheaper too). Trying to avoid hassles while doing missions, just one more thing to run out of.

The other thing is the skills it takes to fly it. Don't get me wrong, it's a great ship. But takes forever to train for. On top of that, it is very expensive. Any ship can be lost, but there are more cost effective alternatives then those beasts. Faction BS while the same price nearly, is way easier to train. T1 BS's might be rather sub-standard, but are like a 5th of the price, and can do the job for most missions or anoms. If your really strapped for cash can do decent sniping in a tier 3 BC. and T3 while all-in-one ships, are easy to train, yet on the costly side. The price of versatility.

I like the marauder, lots of nice work went into it. I would never PVP in something that shiney. Incursions you cannot do in it, maybe VG, but you'd be laughed out of a AS or HQ site fleet. For me, will be a ship I bring out on special occasions and parades....maybe run the odd high sec mission in it. I can't risk that kind of money out in null alone to do a scan site or anom. I would get hot-dropped to easily, and I would be shedding tears for days.

From an engineering perspective? Nice work CCP, flagship of the sub-caps! Deadly, I am sure, in the hands of a pilot who knows how to fly it! Perfectly balanced too I believe, enough, but not too much.

You seem to be confused, or didn't bother reading the first post of the thread. There are no fuel requirements. On the palladin there isn't even ammo really and kronos you only going to be using AM for the most part or null with blasters...

The marauder is a T2 BS to when you say BS do you mean T1 BS, navy BS or Pirate BS?

Paladins and Kronos is relatively popular in Incurtions because of webs but those are getting removed.

The marauder is and always has been very niche. It's main advantage for me was it could salvage and loot while missioning. Others used it for Incurtions but apart form that it is pretty niche. The change is aimed at diversifying and changing it's niche a little bit.

You really should read up a bit better on something you're commenting on next time.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7130 - 2013-11-01 19:14:49 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
Brib Vogt wrote:
If you try to fly the vargur like a mach to keep up the killspeed you completely render the bastion module useless.

A comment to the same effect I made several pages back. If you fly new Marauder like you used to fly old Marauder, the bastion module is not needed.

The trick is to monetize on new bonuses, MJD for mobility and bastion for lighter tanking.

Indeed it's close to a new ship really. It's funny how in a rut some people are, unable to think outside the box and capitalize on the unique advantages the ship brings.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#7131 - 2013-11-01 19:20:08 UTC
A personal attack post has been removed.

Forum rule 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

ISD Tyrozan

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

@ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL

Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
#7132 - 2013-11-01 19:28:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Dorororo
I have a question for CCP devs regarding the current thinking on Bastion skills. When will we be able to confirm if it will be High Energy Physics 4 (if at all)?

Honestly, if Marauders are now being balanced around Bastion, I would suggest that Bastion not use an arbitrary science skill as it's pre-req. All this does is add yet another skill to the already lengthy skill pre-reqs for Marauders. You've already added another one in the form of MJD operation, but at least that's usable in any BS class ship. It would be much better if Bastion's skill pre-req was one of the existing pre-reqs for Marauders.

If Bastion was optional I'd be ok with something like High Energy Physics, but right now it's going against the policy of "you can fly whatever you can before the rebalance". Technically yes you can undock in a Bastion-less Marauder but the entire way the rebalance has been structured has been pretty biased towards the use of Bastion.

It's just one skill and not really a big deal, but there isn't any reason at all to add yet another skill pre-req either. I mean Hull Upgrades V would probably make more sense.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#7133 - 2013-11-01 19:42:28 UTC
Dorororo wrote:
If Bastion was optional I'd be ok with something like High Energy Physics, but right now it's going against the policy of "you can fly whatever you can before the rebalance". Technically yes you can undock in a Bastion-less Marauder but the entire way the rebalance has been structured has been pretty biased towards the use of Bastion.

You can fly Marauders and pretend neither bastion nor MJD do exist, apart from slight DPS nerf you won't notice much difference.

I agree the skill does not make much sense and itself it's not much useful but come on, it's a couple of days.
Dorororo
Keroro Platoon
#7134 - 2013-11-01 19:51:06 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
Dorororo wrote:
If Bastion was optional I'd be ok with something like High Energy Physics, but right now it's going against the policy of "you can fly whatever you can before the rebalance". Technically yes you can undock in a Bastion-less Marauder but the entire way the rebalance has been structured has been pretty biased towards the use of Bastion.

You can fly Marauders and pretend neither bastion nor MJD do exist, apart from slight DPS nerf you won't notice much difference.

I agree the skill does not make much sense and itself it's not much useful but come on, it's a couple of days.


Yes, like I said it's not a big deal. But if there is no reason to do it, then don't do it and add even more to the Marauder pre-req queue.

Even if "it's a couple of days" there is zero basis for any defense of this, other than just for the sake of being contrary.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#7135 - 2013-11-01 19:51:30 UTC
Dorororo wrote:
I have a question for CCP devs regarding the current thinking on Bastion skills. When will we be able to confirm if it will be High Energy Physics 4 (if at all)?

Honestly, if Marauders are now being balanced around Bastion, I would suggest that Bastion not use an arbitrary science skill as it's pre-req. All this does is add yet another skill to the already lengthy skill pre-reqs for Marauders. You've already added another one in the form of MJD operation, but at least that's usable in any BS class ship. It would be much better if Bastion's skill pre-req was one of the existing pre-reqs for Marauders.

If Bastion was optional I'd be ok with something like High Energy Physics, but right now it's going against the policy of "you can fly whatever you can before the rebalance". Technically yes you can undock in a Bastion-less Marauder but the entire way the rebalance has been structured has been pretty biased towards the use of Bastion.

It's just one skill and not really a big deal, but there isn't any reason at all to add yet another skill pre-req either. I mean Hull Upgrades V would probably make more sense.

The rebicon marauder is nearly identical to the TQ one. a few minor adjustments a major adjustment or two, kinda like when some of the other ships were rebalanced. You can still do the same things after rubicon in the marauder. they added functionality though and that added functionality should come with added skill to train.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Shinzhi Xadi
Doomheim
#7136 - 2013-11-01 19:56:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Shinzhi Xadi
The new Paladin textures are in!

Check out the test server to see them. Looks nice!

New tractor unit, and 3 versions of the mobile depot are on also

Mac Pro dual 6-core Xeon 3.06ghz, 24gig ecc ram, EVGA GTX 680 Mac Edition, Intel SSD, OS X Yosemite and Windows 8.1 Pro.

hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#7137 - 2013-11-01 19:59:12 UTC
Dorororo wrote:
Yes, like I said it's not a big deal. But if there is no reason to do it, then don't do it and add even more to the Marauder pre-req queue.

Even if "it's a couple of days" there is zero basis for any defense of this, other than just for the sake of being contrary.

You can fly Marauder without a bastion module.

You can fly Marauder without High Energy trained.

To use bastion you need to train High Energy.

Hope this helps.
Serge SC
The Valhalla Project
#7138 - 2013-11-01 20:07:45 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Is this what we've devolved into in this thread?

Someone observed that since thread goes about such nitpicking on details it's good indicator that there isn't anymore any major design flaw.

I find it hard not to agree with.

I kinda disagree with you here, with all due respect.

The Marauders are fine as they are combat-wise. But their PVE "role" seems a bit redundant now (I'm looking at you tractor bonus and unbonused salvagers).

Most can agree that they have flaws (all ships do), but in general, they are pretty well balanced and working properly. There's a lot more testing to be done here to compare how they actually stack, but out of experience so far, the new Paladin completely outclasses the TQ Paladin. The new Vargur has several advantages over the TQ Vargur (PG, more utility, better tank, smaller sig, more scan res), but is losing badly on the speed area (hello? CCP? Us Matari are known for having faster but nimbler ships, give us some speed back please) especially as Bastion is not very as projectile friendly as it is to Hybrids and Lasers (I keep hearing about how awesome the new range for the Kronos us, and the uber-range of the Paladin is too awesome).

But that's not the point of my post, I'm going to say this:

New tractor structure is ruining Marauders' main role as a marauding ship (one who attacks in search of gain or loot). Marauders should have a bonus to salvage and or tractor (a la Noctis, but not as powerful). Marauders need to be able to tractor stuff in and salvage it, or get better loot compared to non-marauding ships, otherwise, a marauder gets out-marauded by a non-marauder (haha this is getting confusing).

The idea is that marauders actually get to maraud and get better loot compared to non-marauders (better salvage or something, or better mods dropped from wrecks I guess?) I want my ship to actually be a Marauder, not just some combat ship with open high-slots, like a Bhaalgorn with better resists...I want them to actually mean and be what they are supposed to be. Marauders.

Serge SC Le Frenchman Friendly FC

Tsukinosuke
Id Est
RAZOR Alliance
#7139 - 2013-11-01 20:15:22 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
Tsukinosuke wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
Tsukinosuke wrote:
125/125 drone bay/bandwidth for all marauders, would it break the game's balance?!?

Let me counter with another question: if they gave it to you, would you have any reason to use another ship for the same thing, whatever you're doing? If the answer is no then the answer to your question is yes.


there are a lot of requirements to fly it, do you know how long you have to wait to fly a marauder-sentry ship? " When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot neither be remote assisted or remote assist in any way" it will give a bit balance? pvp and fleet usage may be nerfed a little bit.. Roll (triage mode off)

That bit is new! Where is it written that Marauders cannot *give* remote assist while in bastion?


im sure you are enough smart to notice underlined parts is the cost of 125/125 drone bay - bandwidth.. anyway, it may be caused my bad speaking..

it is just a raw idea for sentry lovers, tbh, it is still better than asking for speed to hull which it is useless(and ridiculous) with bastion.. or better than comparing 3b-4b worth machariel fitting vs t2 fitting vargur..

anti-antagonist "not a friend of enemy of antagonist"

hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#7140 - 2013-11-01 20:27:00 UTC
Serge SC wrote:

New tractor structure is ruining Marauders' main role as a marauding ship (one who attacks in search of gain or loot). Marauders should have a bonus to salvage and or tractor (a la Noctis, but not as powerful). Marauders need to be able to tractor stuff in and salvage it, or get better loot compared to non-marauding ships, otherwise, a marauder gets out-marauded by a non-marauder (haha this is getting confusing).

The idea is that marauders actually get to maraud and get better loot compared to non-marauders (better salvage or something, or better mods dropped from wrecks I guess?) I want my ship to actually be a Marauder, not just some combat ship with open high-slots, like a Bhaalgorn with better resists...I want them to actually mean and be what they are supposed to be. Marauders.

Serge, I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me, nor being showed I'm wrong. If anything, it's an opportunity to learn something new.

That said, you're not the first person arguing this new tractor structure hits Marauders where it hurts and I admit I don't get it. As far as I could check, the 40/48 km tractor range works precisely the same way on TQ and on test server. Unless you're competing in the same grid, which during mission running is rather rare occurence, you are in no way impaired by someone launching the thingy.

I dare say that uniqueness is a domain of special issue ships. Regular ones, like Marauders are, are supposed to get the job done and their bonuses are supposed to help with that. I repeat, until there is direct competition the fact that the other ship has bigger this or longer that is completely irrelevant.

Or did I miss something?