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Sieging Customs Offices

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Nye Jaran
Doomheim
#1 - 2011-11-18 05:01:22 UTC
So I just tried sieging an interbus customs office in my Naglfar (what? stop laughing).

It was a mixed bag. ACs did great, was getting hits of 26k using EMP XL and named turrets. Citadel torps though, are a different story. I used Thor Citadel Torps (EM) and did laughable damage. Weapons are grouped, here's a snippet of the combat log:

[ 2011.11.18 02:40:22 ] (combat) Your group of 6x2500mm Heavy Gallium Repeating Cannon barely scratches Interbus Customs Office (S-U8A4 VI) [InterBus], causing 7726.5 damage.
[ 2011.11.18 02:40:26 ] (combat) Your group of 6x2500mm Heavy Gallium Repeating Cannon barely scratches Interbus Customs Office (S-U8A4 VI) [InterBus], causing 10791.1 damage.
[ 2011.11.18 02:40:31 ] (combat) Your group of 6x2500mm Heavy Gallium Repeating Cannon barely scratches Interbus Customs Office (S-U8A4 VI) [InterBus], causing 8597.5 damage.
[ 2011.11.18 02:40:35 ] (combat) Your group of 6x2500mm Heavy Gallium Repeating Cannon hits Interbus Customs Office (S-U8A4 VI) [InterBus], doing 17612.7 damage.
[ 2011.11.18 02:40:38 ] (combat) Your Thor Citadel Torpedo hits Interbus Customs Office (S-U8A4 VI) [InterBus], doing 1262.6 damage.
[ 2011.11.18 02:40:38 ] (combat) Your Thor Citadel Torpedo hits Interbus Customs Office (S-U8A4 VI) [InterBus], doing 1262.6 damage.

What's wrong with this picture? Nag fit had 3x Gyro IIs and 2x BCU IIs.
Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2011-11-18 05:11:15 UTC
Yes, the sig radius of custom offices is very small. They're designed to be taken out by smaller ships.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2011-11-18 09:52:02 UTC
But, they have 14.5M EHP.

How many "smaller ships" would be required to take those down in less than a day ? :/

I agree on a sig radius change. More occasions to siege dreads, more occasions to kill dreads Twisted
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#4 - 2011-11-18 09:56:42 UTC
For some reason, the sig radius of customs office is only 100m.

This must be a bug, since the things are huge (the size attribute in overview says 16km). It means anything larger that a heavy missile won't apply full damage (and even heavy missiles need good skills for it). HAMs, cruises and torps, even stealth bomber torps, suffer damage reduction from it.

I already bug reported it, and has been posted here several times. Good luck getting a dev reply tho.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Nye Jaran
Doomheim
#5 - 2011-11-18 18:48:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Nye Jaran
Zagdul wrote:
Yes, the sig radius of custom offices is very small. They're designed to be taken out by smaller ships.


Sorry, but you're wrong. I'm getting roughly 25% damage on a SB and that's definitely a "smaller ship". Further, any ship with turrets is hitting for full damage. This means that Revs and Moros will do just fine, but a Nag can only bring partial damage to bear and a Phoenix is outright boned.

As you and others have said, this is a problem with the signature radius, which effectively nerfs all missile boats. Hopefully it's an oversight and will be fixed. If not, then so much for balance.
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2011-11-18 19:02:51 UTC
Nye Jaran wrote:
Zagdul wrote:
Yes, the sig radius of custom offices is very small. They're designed to be taken out by smaller ships.


Sorry, but you're wrong. I'm getting roughly 25% damage on a SB and that's definitely a "smaller ship". Further, any ship with turrets is hitting for full damage. This means that Revs and Moros will do just fine, but a Nag can only bring partial damage to bear and a Phoenix is outright boned.

As you and others have said, this is a problem with the signature radius, which effectively nerfs all missile boats. Hopefully it's an oversight and will be fixed. If not, then so much for balance.


smaller ship = smaller gun, not SB TORPS

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#7 - 2011-11-18 19:12:51 UTC
At 100m sig radius, neither HAMs, cruise missiles nor torps can do full damage to the COs. The things are HUGE, they can't possibly have the sig radius of a cruiser except by a bug.

Are people seriously defending this?

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Nye Jaran
Doomheim
#8 - 2011-11-18 19:22:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Nye Jaran
Max Kolonko wrote:
Nye Jaran wrote:
Zagdul wrote:
Yes, the sig radius of custom offices is very small. They're designed to be taken out by smaller ships.


Sorry, but you're wrong. I'm getting roughly 25% damage on a SB and that's definitely a "smaller ship". Further, any ship with turrets is hitting for full damage. This means that Revs and Moros will do just fine, but a Nag can only bring partial damage to bear and a Phoenix is outright boned.

As you and others have said, this is a problem with the signature radius, which effectively nerfs all missile boats. Hopefully it's an oversight and will be fixed. If not, then so much for balance.


smaller ship = smaller gun, not SB TORPS



Then why does a Rev, Moros, or a Nag's ACs / Arties do full damage? If this is intentional, it's a knock against missile users, plain and simple.
Bull Eramix
Tir Capital Management Group
#9 - 2011-11-18 19:25:01 UTC
It's certainly not going to make it harder to do damage to them with smaller ships if they increase the sig radius.


However, how do you go about protecting one or more in lowsec if they can be taken out quickly by a bore fleet that comes along in off hours? More of an issue in lowsec obviously where things are more... fluid. I mean there is no defense options available to the owners right now which is a bit of a shame since obviously if you put one up you would want to be able to defend it somehow. With no defenses maybe it makes sense to require a determined fleet to take one down?
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#10 - 2011-11-18 19:40:47 UTC
You protect them with a fleet of your own, of course. The bored fleet can only reinforce them, then they have to come back the next day to finish the job in a timezone of your choosing. The whole point is to generate conflict. If you can't field a defense fleet, you shouldn't be putting up POCOs.

Besides, the more AFK defenses it has (be pure ehp or guns), the more they will end up in the hands of the larger alliances. If it's easy to hit them with a small fleet, and it requires more or less constant presence in the area to defend it, it won't be practical for a large entity to hold all the POCOs in 3 regions around its home.

Now, the bit that should be worked on is how the defense works when the attacker doesn't come back at the end of the RF timer. Right now, it will suck to rep 2.5 mil shield hp so it reinforces again. It's not the end of the world, but tedious as hell.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Nye Jaran
Doomheim
#11 - 2011-11-18 19:47:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Nye Jaran
Bull, not disagreeing with you, but a bore fleet of turret-based dreads can take one down quickly. Meanwhile a fleet of HAM Drakes, for example, will struggle to do damage without target painters. If they want to make them harder to take them down, change it so they can't be targeted by cap ships.

Even then, it ignores the issue of anything HAM and larger can't do full damage to this massive structure.

Edit: I will say that HAMs do only need a single target painter II painting the POCO to do full damage. Going back for a raven to test Torps and Cruise.

Edit 2: Yeah, even with 6 TPs (I know stack nerfed to hell, don't have another toon that can use TPs at the moment) and a max damage raven, I was still only getting 50% damage. Not very fair to cut out the Raven, Phoon, etc.
pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2011-11-18 21:37:45 UTC  |  Edited by: pmchem
Jack Dant wrote:
For some reason, the sig radius of customs office is only 100m.

This must be a bug, since the things are huge (the size attribute in overview says 16km). It means anything larger that a heavy missile won't apply full damage (and even heavy missiles need good skills for it). HAMs, cruises and torps, even stealth bomber torps, suffer damage reduction from it.

I already bug reported it, and has been posted here several times. Good luck getting a dev reply tho.



Yes, Interbus CO sig radius is way too small. Here is some hard data:

Volley damage (Hound, 3x T2 SiegeML, no BCS fit):

Caldari Navy Bane Torps:
744.5 target Interbus CO
1675.1 target SBU

Rage Bane Torps:
574.2 target Interbus CO
1866.2 target SBU

Volley damage (Hound comedy fit with 3x T2 StandardML):

CN Piranha Light Missiles
348.3 target Interbus CO
174.2 target SBU

Piranha Fury Light Missiles
388.8 target Interbus CO
194.4 target SBU

From the data we see that the interbus CO has no shield resist (by looking at the light missile damage data, since a SBU has 50% shield resist to explosive). Yet the Interbus CO takes only 574.2 damage from a volley of Bane Rage Torps when the tested configuration should have done about 3732.4 volley damage. This means the Hound is only doing about 15% of the damage it should be doing to an Interbus CO.

Any missile weapons of useful size have been significantly nerfed for shooting COs, which just seems like a straight up bug since it's not like the things can move to disrupt weapon tracking for other weapons systems. Fix incoming?

(p.s. for anyone who cares about COs, Player Owned Customs Offices have serious economic / gameplay design problems regarding taxes -- https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=33468&find=unread )

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#13 - 2011-11-18 22:14:51 UTC
If you read through the original POCO feedback thread, the devs made it only 100m sig radius on purpose - supposedly so that they couldn't be blown up by bored cap/scap pilots.

(Mostly as an excuse of why they didn't need to give them the ability to anchor defensive modules.)
Shivus Tao
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2011-11-18 23:04:31 UTC
Zagdul wrote:
Yes, the sig radius of custom offices is very small. They're designed to be taken out by smaller ships.

Talos is THE customs office ganker. Naga is also quite good at that.
pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2011-11-19 00:42:55 UTC  |  Edited by: pmchem
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
If you read through the original POCO feedback thread, the devs made it only 100m sig radius on purpose - supposedly so that they couldn't be blown up by bored cap/scap pilots.

(Mostly as an excuse of why they didn't need to give them the ability to anchor defensive modules.)


bored dread, carrier and titan pilots will have no trouble whatsoever blowing up interbus COs. 100m sigrad would only really affect supercarriers

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Nye Jaran
Doomheim
#16 - 2011-11-19 01:50:18 UTC
pmchem wrote:
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
If you read through the original POCO feedback thread, the devs made it only 100m sig radius on purpose - supposedly so that they couldn't be blown up by bored cap/scap pilots.

(Mostly as an excuse of why they didn't need to give them the ability to anchor defensive modules.)


bored dread, carrier and titan pilots will have no trouble whatsoever blowing up interbus COs. 100m sigrad would only really affect supercarriers


No it effects the Nag (to an extent), Phoenix, and any Torp / Cruise missile fit ship. Basically, they just screwed over missile users for some half-assed poorly defined pseudo-reason.
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#17 - 2011-11-19 15:44:52 UTC
This was not by design, just a bug which has already been fixed. I believe changes will be reflected on SiSi this week, if not already.

Signature radius of Interbus and player owner Customs Offices will be 4500m.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#18 - 2011-11-19 16:05:01 UTC


Customs Offices seem to be immune to Smartbombs...

Just FYI.

Where I am.
Nye Jaran
Doomheim
#19 - 2011-11-19 19:56:54 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
This was not by design, just a bug which has already been fixed. I believe changes will be reflected on SiSi this week, if not already.

Signature radius of Interbus and player owner Customs Offices will be 4500m.


Excellent, thank you!
Pytria Le'Danness
Placid Reborn
#20 - 2011-11-19 22:28:27 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
This was not by design, just a bug which has already been fixed. I believe changes will be reflected on SiSi this week, if not already.

Signature radius of Interbus and player owner Customs Offices will be 4500m.


For the record, I killed a low sec CO from Interbus today. Took me about three hours with two Talos'. Seeing that the COs will be in the 50-100M price range I think a bit more toughness would not hurt. If killing them becomes too easy it opens up a whole new can of global griefing unless planets that lost their CO will respawn an NPC one after some time.

How so?

Kill enough NPC COs and no serious exporting can be done ; jetcanning from the CC is tedious.
If a player erects a CO wardec him, kill it too.
Result: shortage of PI supplies, rising T2 prices.

I'm not sure this will be feasible on a global scale, but a bunch of bored players or a big alliance that wants to create a monopoly might try it.

If killing COs becomes too easy only the big corporations and alliances will be able to field them, and this will make them even richer.
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