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SOV tearing down the old.

First post
Author
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#161 - 2013-10-31 08:53:58 UTC
It's funny how literally every suggestion in this thread aimed at helping smaller entities fight the big ones actually only benefits and encourages mega-coalitions. Malcanis' law anyone?
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#162 - 2013-10-31 08:55:20 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Onictus wrote:
No Infinity, it just means they would never be deployed offensively.

No its means those with balls that do deploy them will be at an advantage over those too scared to. There should be very significant risk when deploying supers.



It means that anywhere without a safe POS I have all of that TIDI'd spool down to counter.

They will never leave staging POS, It would take to long to reinforce.

The spool down doesnt have to be affected by tidi.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#163 - 2013-10-31 08:59:17 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Onictus wrote:
No Infinity, it just means they would never be deployed offensively.

No its means those with balls that do deploy them will be at an advantage over those too scared to. There should be very significant risk when deploying supers.



It means that anywhere without a safe POS I have all of that TIDI'd spool down to counter.

They will never leave staging POS, It would take to long to reinforce.

The spool down doesnt have to be affected by tidi.



That's bullshit, every other combat timer is.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#164 - 2013-10-31 09:00:46 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
It's funny how literally every suggestion in this thread aimed at helping smaller entities fight the big ones actually only benefits and encourages mega-coalitions. Malcanis' law anyone?



Correct, anything your small alliance can do we can do in the same numbers.

Times ten.
Kialopreyst
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#165 - 2013-10-31 09:02:04 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
The EvE version - you drop a stupid module and go back to your territory and magically you are given that territory. Don't even need to be there for that. No need to have troops there to defend it its got magic invulnerability timers.


What is this module that magically gives sov with zero effort?
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#166 - 2013-10-31 09:21:58 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:


Which is why there needs to be a cooldown on jump drives. And its not about turning null in WH space, that's a silly thing to say, its about balancing large alliances ability to move the most enormous and powerful ships in the game faster than the smallest, fastest ships in the game.


Right now, dreads are trapped for 5 minutes by their cycle, and if engaged by local subcap forces, their support only has to destroy tackle to escape after the cycle. Couldn't see small entities using them at all if they were trapped for 2 hours by a drive cooldown, and unable to log for 15 minutes because of one potshot from 1 noob frigate.

And no large entities need only have regional forces the same size as regional opponents to produce dominance, as an exchange would the have the strategic effect of removing the large entities defences for a few hours whilst reinforcements worked against their cooldowns (and other strategic forces would have to work against the same problem to engage), where as the local opponent would be wiped and restarting procurement to have any capital force at all.

If you lose a piece in chess, exchanges become strategically more dangerous.

IMO what you describe would be good for recreating the British Empire, because that is exactly how they operated for hundreds of years (willing to force exchanges without local superiority, and court martialling captains and admirals that failed to do so).

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#167 - 2013-10-31 09:53:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Onictus wrote:

That's bullshit, every other combat timer is.

Like I said earlier, the cooldown could be reduced by shorter jumps, so a long cooldown for maximum jumping, short cooldown for short jumps. So you form up nearby and jump into the system, you now have a short cooldown...

Really only interferes with travelling long distances, not short ones.


Tauranon wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:


Which is why there needs to be a cooldown on jump drives. And its not about turning null in WH space, that's a silly thing to say, its about balancing large alliances ability to move the most enormous and powerful ships in the game faster than the smallest, fastest ships in the game.


Right now, dreads are trapped for 5 minutes by their cycle, and if engaged by local subcap forces, their support only has to destroy tackle to escape after the cycle. Couldn't see small entities using them at all if they were trapped for 2 hours by a drive cooldown, and unable to log for 15 minutes because of one potshot from 1 noob frigate.

And no large entities need only have regional forces the same size as regional opponents to produce dominance, as an exchange would the have the strategic effect of removing the large entities defences for a few hours whilst reinforcements worked against their cooldowns (and other strategic forces would have to work against the same problem to engage), where as the local opponent would be wiped and restarting procurement to have any capital force at all.

If you lose a piece in chess, exchanges become strategically more dangerous.

IMO what you describe would be good for recreating the British Empire, because that is exactly how they operated for hundreds of years (willing to force exchanges without local superiority, and court martialling captains and admirals that failed to do so).


I didn't say two hours, actually didn't give any time. but like I said above, short jump in, short cool down, long jump in, long cool down.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#168 - 2013-10-31 09:59:50 UTC
The only thing that will work in my opinion is the following:

1. Create cheap and effective mobile bases - CCP have done this details still awaited
2. Create a way to attack passive moon income, - CCP have done this, may need adjustment
3. Reduce the EHP of sov modules where NPC pirates have not been kept down, will turn off IHUB and also reduces the time taken to online an SBU
4. Dread cycle reduced to 2 minutes
5. Remove automated mails of stucture/POS attacks
6. Limit the mass that can jump through a cyno
7. Make a portable covert cyno jammer as well as the portable normal cyno jammer

Do that and then see how it develops.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#169 - 2013-10-31 10:00:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Onictus wrote:

That's bullshit, every other combat timer is.

Like I said earlier, the cooldown could be reduced by shorter jumps, so a long cooldown for maximum jumping, short cooldown for short jumps. So you form up nearby and jump into the system, you now have a short cooldown...

Really only interferes with travelling long distances, not short ones.


Tauranon wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:


Which is why there needs to be a cooldown on jump drives. And its not about turning null in WH space, that's a silly thing to say, its about balancing large alliances ability to move the most enormous and powerful ships in the game faster than the smallest, fastest ships in the game.


Right now, dreads are trapped for 5 minutes by their cycle, and if engaged by local subcap forces, their support only has to destroy tackle to escape after the cycle. Couldn't see small entities using them at all if they were trapped for 2 hours by a drive cooldown, and unable to log for 15 minutes because of one potshot from 1 noob frigate.

And no large entities need only have regional forces the same size as regional opponents to produce dominance, as an exchange would the have the strategic effect of removing the large entities defences for a few hours whilst reinforcements worked against their cooldowns (and other strategic forces would have to work against the same problem to engage), where as the local opponent would be wiped and restarting procurement to have any capital force at all.

If you lose a piece in chess, exchanges become strategically more dangerous.

IMO what you describe would be good for recreating the British Empire, because that is exactly how they operated for hundreds of years (willing to force exchanges without local superiority, and court martialling captains and admirals that failed to do so).


I didn't say two hours, actually didn't give any time. but like I said above, short jump in, short cool down, long jump in, long cool down.


5 minutes turns into 50 in TIDI.

This is why your idea sucks

And you made everyone's caps safe from super ganks
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#170 - 2013-10-31 10:06:47 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Onictus wrote:

That's bullshit, every other combat timer is.

Like I said earlier, the cooldown could be reduced by shorter jumps, so a long cooldown for maximum jumping, short cooldown for short jumps. So you form up nearby and jump into the system, you now have a short cooldown...

Really only interferes with travelling long distances, not short ones.


Tauranon wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:


Which is why there needs to be a cooldown on jump drives. And its not about turning null in WH space, that's a silly thing to say, its about balancing large alliances ability to move the most enormous and powerful ships in the game faster than the smallest, fastest ships in the game.


Right now, dreads are trapped for 5 minutes by their cycle, and if engaged by local subcap forces, their support only has to destroy tackle to escape after the cycle. Couldn't see small entities using them at all if they were trapped for 2 hours by a drive cooldown, and unable to log for 15 minutes because of one potshot from 1 noob frigate.

And no large entities need only have regional forces the same size as regional opponents to produce dominance, as an exchange would the have the strategic effect of removing the large entities defences for a few hours whilst reinforcements worked against their cooldowns (and other strategic forces would have to work against the same problem to engage), where as the local opponent would be wiped and restarting procurement to have any capital force at all.

If you lose a piece in chess, exchanges become strategically more dangerous.

IMO what you describe would be good for recreating the British Empire, because that is exactly how they operated for hundreds of years (willing to force exchanges without local superiority, and court martialling captains and admirals that failed to do so).


I didn't say two hours, actually didn't give any time. but like I said above, short jump in, short cool down, long jump in, long cool down.


5 minutes turns into 50 in TIDI.

This is why your idea sucks

And you made everyone's caps safe from super ganks

Caps are supposed to die. Theyr'e not supposed to be immune from that. This is EvE. Its a harsh (or should be) place.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#171 - 2013-10-31 10:17:49 UTC
Quote:


And you made everyone's caps safe from super ganks

Caps are supposed to die. Theyr'e not supposed to be immune from that. This is EvE. Its a harsh (or should be) place.
[/quote]

You don't get it. Carriers jump further than supers, or even dreads. Not to mention that the can dock, so it's just a matter of having them staged in the right place.

It also means that no one is going to come running from for jumps away to kill said caps because they can't.

Blap dreads and boots with impunity, because whoever you are fighting has to have sub-superiority before they can escalate. And supers don't jump far, so it would be a nice welcoming party.

So you further tilt to the defenders, because they are likely going to be in system already, if they get counter dropped they just bounce.

..And the attacker is stuck for who knows how long......And you don't even need to tackle.
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#172 - 2013-10-31 10:20:50 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
The only thing that will work in my opinion is the following:

1. Create cheap and effective mobile bases - CCP have done this details still awaited
2. Create a way to attack passive moon income, - CCP have done this, may need adjustment
3. Reduce the EHP of sov modules where NPC pirates have not been kept down, will turn off IHUB and also reduces the time taken to online an SBU
4. Dread cycle reduced to 2 minutes
5. Remove automated mails of stucture/POS attacks
6. Limit the mass that can jump through a cyno
7. Make a portable covert cyno jammer as well as the portable normal cyno jammer

Do that and then see how it develops.


Why?
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#173 - 2013-10-31 10:31:09 UTC
Yeep wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
The only thing that will work in my opinion is the following:

1. Create cheap and effective mobile bases - CCP have done this details still awaited
2. Create a way to attack passive moon income, - CCP have done this, may need adjustment
3. Reduce the EHP of sov modules where NPC pirates have not been kept down, will turn off IHUB and also reduces the time taken to online an SBU
4. Dread cycle reduced to 2 minutes
5. Remove automated mails of stucture/POS attacks
6. Limit the mass that can jump through a cyno
7. Make a portable covert cyno jammer as well as the portable normal cyno jammer

Do that and then see how it develops.


Why?

Because we don't want to play EvE Online - Rental Space Sim, we want to play EvE Online - Blowing Shitt Up

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#174 - 2013-10-31 10:34:24 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Yeep wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
The only thing that will work in my opinion is the following:

1. Create cheap and effective mobile bases - CCP have done this details still awaited
2. Create a way to attack passive moon income, - CCP have done this, may need adjustment
3. Reduce the EHP of sov modules where NPC pirates have not been kept down, will turn off IHUB and also reduces the time taken to online an SBU
4. Dread cycle reduced to 2 minutes
5. Remove automated mails of stucture/POS attacks
6. Limit the mass that can jump through a cyno
7. Make a portable covert cyno jammer as well as the portable normal cyno jammer

Do that and then see how it develops.


Why?

Because we don't want to play EvE Online - Rental Space Sim, we want to play EvE Online - Blowing Shitt Up


Cool, so explain how the things listed here would work towards that goal.

Otherwise you're just throwing tantrum and screaming "But I want a pony!"
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#175 - 2013-10-31 10:42:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Yeep wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Yeep wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
The only thing that will work in my opinion is the following:

1. Create cheap and effective mobile bases - CCP have done this details still awaited
2. Create a way to attack passive moon income, - CCP have done this, may need adjustment
3. Reduce the EHP of sov modules where NPC pirates have not been kept down, will turn off IHUB and also reduces the time taken to online an SBU
4. Dread cycle reduced to 2 minutes
5. Remove automated mails of stucture/POS attacks
6. Limit the mass that can jump through a cyno
7. Make a portable covert cyno jammer as well as the portable normal cyno jammer

Do that and then see how it develops.


Why?

Because we don't want to play EvE Online - Rental Space Sim, we want to play EvE Online - Blowing Shitt Up


Cool, so explain how the things listed here would work towards that goal.

Otherwise you're just throwing tantrum and screaming "But I want a pony!"

1. Bases are self explanatory.
2. Siphons are self explanatory.
3. I'm not sure I agree with or disagree with this one. I prefer player created content rather than NPC.
4. Self explanatory. Lower cycle time, reduced reticence for committing dreads.
5. Self explanatory.
6. Hot dropping is imo a big reason people won't commit to a fight (bait fear) and feel the need to blob just in case. Reduces that to an extent.
7. No sure I agree with this one. On second thought I guess I do, bunch of t3's and blops dropping on you probably does decrease peoples ability to commit or take risks. Make it very expensive or skill intensive at least.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#176 - 2013-10-31 10:46:51 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Yeep wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
The only thing that will work in my opinion is the following:

1. Create cheap and effective mobile bases - CCP have done this details still awaited
2. Create a way to attack passive moon income, - CCP have done this, may need adjustment
3. Reduce the EHP of sov modules where NPC pirates have not been kept down, will turn off IHUB and also reduces the time taken to online an SBU
4. Dread cycle reduced to 2 minutes
5. Remove automated mails of stucture/POS attacks
6. Limit the mass that can jump through a cyno
7. Make a portable covert cyno jammer as well as the portable normal cyno jammer

Do that and then see how it develops.


Why?

Because we don't want to play EvE Online - Rental Space Sim, we want to play EvE Online - Blowing Shitt Up


That is a good answer, because its designed to give smaller entities the ability to take systems that others do not use, holding them is another matter, but if you have the will to keep fighting then make it possible.

Biggest issue for anyone being attacked is the base of operations, this is why getting the Personal Structure right is so important, you need a base to be able to fight from. Also this attack people for lol's and to get good fights has to have a way that the defender can get back at them, the siphon unit does that. The target of course is the lessor used systems, so that people feel that they can actually take them, of course holding them means time and effort in keeping the EHP high of the sov modules, this means that people will try to camp them to reduce the control and people will have to kill NPC's to keep it high, resulting in more small gang combat. But all those poor systems sitting in there with a TCU now become very vulnerable to attack.

Dreads are the ships that smaller entities would prefer to use, cost with insurance is rather small, and 2 minutes suits smaller entities better as they can fire off a few rounds and GTFO leaving the residue EHP to sub caps.

The mails are evident, you need to patrol your space.

Cyno's give too great a force projection, therefore limit it, this will not hurt small people as they cannot get too many in a fleet anyway, I know that the major alliances will use multiple cyno's, but that has an impact in perhaps resulting in split forces etc.

The BLOPS are being fielded in greater numbers, if it keeps up like this then it will get silly, I also think that this will impact cloaky campers because they will need two toons now, one to hold the tackle, the other to cyno in the fleet, also it makes it a race for the camper to get in position to be effective, therefore making it more likely that people will leave stations.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#177 - 2013-10-31 10:50:41 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
3. I'm not sure I agree with or disagree with this one. I prefer player created content rather than NPC.

7. No sure I agree with this one. On second thought I guess I do, bunch of t3's and blops dropping on you probably does decrease peoples ability to commit or take risks. Make it very expensive or skill intensive at least.


3. There has to be an impact to not using the system, the best way I could come up with is that the EHP of sov modules drop, this makes it necessary for people to go into those systems, but makes it easier to take. This is a cost of holding space you do not use. Therefore reducing the will to hold large tracts of space. This may open up the door for smaller entities.

7. I keep seeing very large fleets of BLOPS and that will get to a point where its too difficult for people, we want them out and about, not too scared to undock...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#178 - 2013-10-31 11:17:01 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:

Biggest issue for anyone being attacked is the base of operations, this is why getting the Personal Structure right is so important, you need a base to be able to fight from. Also this attack people for lol's and to get good fights has to have a way that the defender can get back at them, the siphon unit does that. The target of course is the lessor used systems, so that people feel that they can actually take them, of course holding them means time and effort in keeping the EHP high of the sov modules, this means that people will try to camp them to reduce the control and people will have to kill NPC's to keep it high, resulting in more small gang combat. But all those poor systems sitting in there with a TCU now become very vulnerable to attack.


There is this persistant myth that large alliances leave space unused just to wind up highsec pubbies when in actual fact the reason huge chuncks of 0.0 is unused is because it sucks, hard. If you want people to use all the space they claim (which is a worthwhile goal) you need to make it worth living in. That means changing personal income from even the worst truesec 0.0 to be better than level 4s and having it scale upwards from there.

Siphons in their current form will not generate fights but that has been sufficiently covered in the devblog thread so I won't get into it here.

Dracvlad wrote:
Dreads are the ships that smaller entities would prefer to use, cost with insurance is rather small, and 2 minutes suits smaller entities better as they can fire off a few rounds and GTFO leaving the residue EHP to sub caps.


This is a very one-sided way of looking at things. I'd actually rather see dread timers go back up to 10 minutes. Your small alliance is much more likely to need the full 5 minute timer to reinforce a tower. Reduce the timer to 2 minutes and now the 255 man CFC dread fleet can reinforce twice as many things. Right now they're sat vulnerable doing nothing.

Dracvlad wrote:
The mails are evident, you need to patrol your space.


Space in Eve is too porous for any mechanic that relies on guarding entrances or constant patrols to work. Unless you make significant changes to how ships behave when you log off, cloaking and cyno mechanics strucutre mails are necessary. In addition, if you're looking for fights you want people to know when you're attacking them.

Dracvlad wrote:
Cyno's give too great a force projection, therefore limit it, this will not hurt small people as they cannot get too many in a fleet anyway, I know that the major alliances will use multiple cyno's, but that has an impact in perhaps resulting in split forces etc.


Major alliances are also much better positioned to keep ship stores around the universe. I can't imagine the CFC would have that much difficulty just storing 20 dreads in each region it owned. They could probably come close right now by just asking people to re-sub capital alts they have lying around. The people you really hurt by reducing jump range are those who want to get in, reinforce a structure and get out again quickly because their cyno chain is going to show up on the map much longer in advance.

In general your ideas are all stick and no carrot. The thing is if you make living in 0.0 suck enough that the current occupants leave you some space, why would you want to live there?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#179 - 2013-10-31 11:18:19 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
3. I'm not sure I agree with or disagree with this one. I prefer player created content rather than NPC.

7. No sure I agree with this one. On second thought I guess I do, bunch of t3's and blops dropping on you probably does decrease peoples ability to commit or take risks. Make it very expensive or skill intensive at least.


3. There has to be an impact to not using the system, the best way I could come up with is that the EHP of sov modules drop, this makes it necessary for people to go into those systems, but makes it easier to take. This is a cost of holding space you do not use. Therefore reducing the will to hold large tracts of space. This may open up the door for smaller entities.

7. I keep seeing very large fleets of BLOPS and that will get to a point where its too difficult for people, we want them out and about, not too scared to undock...


So ummm

You know that changes nothing, people will just claim the good true sec and leave the rest.....doesn't take long to kill a tcu, assuming someone gets in there drop it.

The fact is that there is no need to claim the sov other than a defensive measure for ihub timers.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#180 - 2013-10-31 11:19:54 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Onictus wrote:

That's bullshit, every other combat timer is.

Like I said earlier, the cooldown could be reduced by shorter jumps, so a long cooldown for maximum jumping, short cooldown for short jumps. So you form up nearby and jump into the system, you now have a short cooldown...

Really only interferes with travelling long distances, not short ones.


Tauranon wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:


Which is why there needs to be a cooldown on jump drives. And its not about turning null in WH space, that's a silly thing to say, its about balancing large alliances ability to move the most enormous and powerful ships in the game faster than the smallest, fastest ships in the game.


Right now, dreads are trapped for 5 minutes by their cycle, and if engaged by local subcap forces, their support only has to destroy tackle to escape after the cycle. Couldn't see small entities using them at all if they were trapped for 2 hours by a drive cooldown, and unable to log for 15 minutes because of one potshot from 1 noob frigate.

And no large entities need only have regional forces the same size as regional opponents to produce dominance, as an exchange would the have the strategic effect of removing the large entities defences for a few hours whilst reinforcements worked against their cooldowns (and other strategic forces would have to work against the same problem to engage), where as the local opponent would be wiped and restarting procurement to have any capital force at all.

If you lose a piece in chess, exchanges become strategically more dangerous.

IMO what you describe would be good for recreating the British Empire, because that is exactly how they operated for hundreds of years (willing to force exchanges without local superiority, and court martialling captains and admirals that failed to do so).


I didn't say two hours, actually didn't give any time. but like I said above, short jump in, short cool down, long jump in, long cool down.


You didn't have to say 2 hours.

The jump cooldown is analogous to games with initiative anyway, and any jump in, means that local forces outrange your jump out. ie you literally start engagements with half your initiative gone.