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Suggesting updated rules for highsec capitals

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Mhari Dson
Lazy Brothers Inc
#101 - 2013-10-30 19:10:04 UTC
a drone control module shouldn't be a violation since it would be used (properly mind you) for just deploying additional mining drones. Also when was the no sale allowed rule added? It did not exsist as of my petition regarding the rules on 3-30-2010 (if it was missed GM Syndemic wasn't informed either and the petition has been purposefully retained by me). I personally have been interested in eventually acquiring one regardless of price since lowsec/nullsec has about the same appeal to me as a dentist's appointment on chainsaw day. Don't need it as a combat ship, just something I've always wanted to posess even if it's horribly gimped by location.
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#102 - 2013-10-30 19:15:25 UTC
This is a case where specifying what you can do with it would be much clearer than trying to corner all the things you can't do with it.

Rule XX: In HiSec capitals may only lock onto asteroids.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#103 - 2013-10-30 19:24:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Eram Fidard
Astecus wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
I know just what to do with that Archon man. Trust me... Blink

How many pilots are needed to gank 4 million EHP (not overloaded)?


No more than 1600 catalysts.

More "math" reveals you would need 444.44444444444444444444444444444444444 tornados to alpha the sucker.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Dynotron
Perkone
Caldari State
#104 - 2013-10-30 19:28:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Dynotron
My 2 cents

The current rules do not result in a line being drawn. More like a monstrous piecewise function. This is a result of attempting to draw the line too late. There being so much to do in eve this bring the "fight" into a battlefield that is one large grey area. Attempting to dictate how the ship is controlled without proper game mechanics is extremely messy and inevitably leads to conflict as unexplored grey areas are encountered. Another problem with how things are dealt with is the punishment of the player (the ban). High sec capitals should be the issue here, not players in high-sec capitals. It is NO way the players fault as they are NOT violating any game mechanics. Them having a high sec capital is already seen as not a violation of game mechanics.

Allowing players to keep capitals in high sec with the current rules and protocols for dealing with violations of said rules are not in favor of the players or GM's as they have HIGH probability of causing periodic conflict between said parties leading to hurt feelings and damaged relations.

//Example solution//
Draw a (complete as possible) line at the undock as rule 2 does.

A potential new set of rules would be

1. Undocking with any modules or drones that can apply DPS is not allowed.
2. If at war, or with war declaration pending, you may not take your capital ship out of station.
3. Violation of any of the above will result in the capital in question being stripped of CPU, powergrid, and shield/hull/structure (values are edited to be 1).
4. Upon second violation a wormhole will be randomly selected and said capital will be sent there with or without the pilot.
5. Any unforeseen questionable behavior may result in 3 and 4. (This is especially necessary as the game's mechanics are not static)
*READ THIS*(NOTE: 3 and 4 are not necessarily permanent and perceived improper handling of the situation can be petitioned!)*READ THIS*

(The no sales rule does not fit in here as it's reasoning is pretty grey, legacy capitals are allowed in highsec for the players to enjoy, buying/selling them does not have a negative impact on the player base and would increase the enjoyment that can be had from these high-sec capitals.)

Send out a one time pop-up notification to all players informing them of the new rules.

To enforce these rules in a way that does not lead to conflict, add the following data logging on undock

If (security >= 0.5 && ship.type == captial)
{
Log(player.name)
Log(ship.ID)
Log(ship.modules)
Log(player.warstatus)
}

If a capital is accused of violation of the rules, verifying said breach would be simple and quick. (Rule 3 could potentially be automated)
Ideally also have someone (Me? ;D) write a simple database API that GMs can call somehow.

ShipCripple(string shipID, string GMcredentials)
{
if (credentials are not verified) return;

RetrieveShip(shipID)
{
CPU/Powergrid/max shield/max hull/max structure == 1
}
}

ShipUncripple(string shipID, string GMcredentials) (As we are all humans)
{
if (credentials are not verified) return;

RetrieveShip(shipID)
{
Restore values to normal
}
}
Mana Potion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#105 - 2013-10-30 19:41:29 UTC
Just wait a couple expansions. then we can take over High Sec....first POCOs... next NPC stations.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#106 - 2013-10-30 20:17:35 UTC
The GM did a good job.

The Tears Must Flow
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#107 - 2013-10-30 20:18:59 UTC
CCP should just move all of the remaining ships to lowsec.

The Tears Must Flow
Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#108 - 2013-10-30 21:21:02 UTC
I don't see the opposition to highsec capitals when they're not negatively impacting the game in any way.

I'd absolutely love to have one.
TharOkha
0asis Group
#109 - 2013-10-30 21:33:47 UTC
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:
I don't see the opposition to highsec capitals when they're not negatively impacting the game in any way.

I'd absolutely love to have one.


So buy one in lowsec for f sake. Roll I remember the old days when i brought my first carrier and delivered it toi empty lowsec. I was playing with that toy all day long doing that "brrrrrm" sound and i enjoyed it. You could do it too.

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
Viktor Fel
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#110 - 2013-10-30 21:43:51 UTC
OP: you need to lose another capital. Some night I hope to make that happen and mine your tears.

Who is Viktor Fel?

Killboard
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#111 - 2013-10-30 22:29:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Lena Lazair
Dynotron wrote:
My 2 cents


WAY too complex.

Here is the only mechanics change necessary to balance capitals in hisec: do not let players board a capital in hisec space or undock a capital from a hisec station if they are not in a player corporation.

That's it. Force dock up all existing hisec capitals during a DT after making this change, then remove ALL other GM restrictions on capital use in hisec.

Now, everyone in a hisec capital is forced to be in a player corp if they want to be in space. IF someone attempts to use a capital to any significant combat or personal advantage, they will be perma wardec'd to the point that either a) they can never undock their capital anyway or b) they eventually lose their capital. Yay for player-driven content!

CCP, I have removed all GM workload regarding hi-sec capitals. I expect my cheque in the mail.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm saying this rule should be baked into the engine and turned into a game mechanic. Not just some nebulous "you will be petitioned for doing it" kind of GM rule.
Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#112 - 2013-10-30 22:31:33 UTC
TharOkha wrote:
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:
I don't see the opposition to highsec capitals when they're not negatively impacting the game in any way.

I'd absolutely love to have one.


So buy one in lowsec for f sake. Roll I remember the old days when i brought my first carrier and delivered it toi empty lowsec. I was playing with that toy all day long doing that "brrrrrm" sound and i enjoyed it. You could do it too.

Going "brrrrrrm" around lowsec isn't the point; going "brrrrrrm" around highsec is. Sure it's a matter of having something other people can't easily get, of course there's a desire to show off my awesome super special ship. But it's more than that. It's also knowing that I could be inspiring some new player. I could be showing them something they probably won't be seeing for quite some time.

Call it what you will, but the first time I saw a capital ship, just a month ago, it was kinda awe inspiring. Sure I looked at them in the ship viewer. But that's not really comparable to flying next to one. You can go on and on about how easy it is to go find one: "just jump into Nullsec, there are shittons there". But the vast majority of new players won't make it to Null for a good while.

I mean, what is there really in highsec that's awe inspiring? You've got stations, those are big. And planets. Moons. POSes, if you're desperate. I guess you could say those industrial ships are "big", but it's an industrial ship; a glorified tanker. It's not really the same as seeing a Carrier or Dreadnaught in highsec. Especially when you know those ships are so rare.

I'd gladly give up offensive modules on it to be able to fly it around highsec.
Gekkoh
Circle of Steel Inc.
#113 - 2013-10-30 22:53:26 UTC
Dynotron wrote:
My 2 cents

...

To enforce these rules in a way that does not lead to conflict, add the following data logging on undock

If (security >= 0.5 && ship.type == captial)
{
Log(player.name)
Log(ship.ID)
Log(ship.modules)
Log(player.warstatus)
}

If a capital is accused of violation of the rules, verifying said breach would be simple and quick. (Rule 3 could potentially be automated)
Ideally also have someone (Me? ;D) write a simple database API that GMs can call somehow.

ShipCripple(string shipID, string GMcredentials)
{
if (credentials are not verified) return;

RetrieveShip(shipID)
{
CPU/Powergrid/max shield/max hull/max structure == 1
}
}

ShipUncripple(string shipID, string GMcredentials) (As we are all humans)
{
if (credentials are not verified) return;

RetrieveShip(shipID)
{
Restore values to normal
}
}


Eve runs on stackless python. Why are you including types and braces?

Also, why on earth would you store a GUID as a string?

Finally, I'm going to guess that the engineers know how to write simple functions without help on the forums :-P

On the original topic, I don't see why caps shouldn't be allowed in hisec. "It's not fair!" is hardly one of the design pillars of Eve.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#114 - 2013-10-30 23:08:13 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
CCP should just move all of the remaining ships to lowsec.

I wonder if they can, though. I'm not sure they could find them all. I almost bought an Aeon that was docked at a station in lowsec, but just to be safe I asked a GM about it and they said "no way"... apparently if you don't long in for a certain period of time (or something) you and your ship can get docked at the closest NPC station, even in a supercarrier. ...but it can't stay that way, and you can't sell a docked SC. I would think they would force them all out of dock if they could...

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Kibitt Kallinikov
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#115 - 2013-10-31 01:23:09 UTC
GM Spiral wrote:
The rules clarification written in this thread were written in response to this thread and are not currently on the Evelopedia. We'll make sure it is clear enough and then update the page. If you have any further feedback on this, it is welcome.


Capitals in high-sec are a legacy issue from way back when for a brief time certain types of capitals could be produced in high security space. Community feedback at the time resulted in the current incarnation of the rules and the permission for those capitals already built in high-sec to remain there. The discussion to change or remove these rules and special permissions has come up a few times in the past decade, but has been inconclusive.

The rules could be interpreted as an incentive for a high-sec capital pilot to contact us and request relocation to a low-sec system on their own accord. Ultimately it is an exception to intended and established game mechanics and will have to be continued being treated in that way.

And always remember: You can always defer a decision to a senior game master for a review. Our game masters are all human and have been known to err occasionally. We are usually more than happy to discuss and amend as required. :)


I know this is nit-picking, but war-decs are the common way to engage people in high security space. Are you saying that a Capital ship is not allowed to defend itself from a war-dec enemy? It's a tricky question to tackle because you have to know who struck who first, but that could be solved by making aggressive actions by capital ships in high security space impossible unless you have an engagement timer on you, INCLUDING TRIAGE/SIEGE to make it impossible to get tangled with a capital ship unless a pilot wants to, as you only receive those timers unless an enemy takes an aggressive action against you, whereas suspect status or a capsuleer combat timer could be achieved via remote assistance or the aforementioned Siege/Triage modules (At least, I think that's how the modules work).

In addition, you could make it so that cyno fields can be lit in high sec, but only for the purposes of capital ships [In other words, only a Capital ship can jump through], thus preventing the use of cyno to deploy offensive or defensive forces in high sec. Whether or not you make this extend to Jump Freighters is up to you, because I know that would have a serious impact upon JF capabilities. If you consider this option, please remember that Titans give gang link bonuses, so if you wish to allow Titans to cyno into high sec, there would have to be even more headache work (straight up prevent them from joining a fleet) involved, and the effect of Titans on Jita undock or the like would probably be horrific for traffic.
Lady Naween
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#116 - 2013-10-31 02:44:12 UTC
Kibitt Kallinikov wrote:


I know this is nit-picking, but war-decs are the common way to engage people in high security space. Are you saying that a Capital ship is not allowed to defend itself from a war-dec enemy? It's a tricky question to tackle because you have to know who struck who first, but that could be solved by making aggressive actions by capital ships in high security space impossible unless you have an engagement timer on you, INCLUDING TRIAGE/SIEGE to make it impossible to get tangled with a capital ship unless a pilot wants to, as you only receive those timers unless an enemy takes an aggressive action against you, whereas suspect status or a capsuleer combat timer could be achieved via remote assistance or the aforementioned Siege/Triage modules (At least, I think that's how the modules work).


you may not undock in a highsec capital ship while wardeced.
Thatt Guy
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#117 - 2013-10-31 05:13:31 UTC
Remove all high-sec capitals to low-sec. Problem solved.
Can't be used, sold, traded or anything else, so what's the point of them being there?

Haters gonna hate, Trolls gonna troll.
ZAKURELL0 LINDA
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#118 - 2013-10-31 06:14:29 UTC
Thatt Guy wrote:
Remove all high-sec capitals to low-sec. Problem solved.
Can't be used, sold, traded or anything else, so what's the point of them being there?

- for fellow citizens of eve have an idol to worship
- for bitter vets to remember da good ol' days
- for mining veldspar
- for a good firework shows

or just because they can.

RIP Iron Lady
Lugalbandak
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#119 - 2013-10-31 10:30:35 UTC
Nice to see you made a event & a video of sestruction og your cap , +1

The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#120 - 2013-10-31 13:27:23 UTC
You know we are only talking about carriers and dreads here. These are not supercarriers that can only be destroyed by other supercarriers. Carriers and dreads can both be destroyed by subcapital fleets. Further the hs capitals are limited in their movements because they cannot cyno around hs. Hence, its not likely that you are going to see multiple capitals assisting each other. In view of the above, I say remove the combat restrictions from the few remaining carriers and dreads in hs. Destroying such a ship would clearly be both fun and an achievement. Let those who own such ships take them out to use in whatever system they are docked in if they dare. They will produce content for eve's players and slowly but surely attrition will solve the hs capital "problem."

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.