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Armor Tank T2 vs Shield Tank T2?
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Skittles Austrene
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-10-30 06:10:37 UTC
How come after skilling to shield upgrades 4 I can fit T2 shield tank fittings but after skilling to hull upgrades 4 I can't fit T2 armor tank fittings?
Alice Ituin
Doomheim
#2 - 2013-10-30 08:53:39 UTC
Because the skilltree is a complete mess and needs a major rework?
Maybe someday CCP will move around some skill requirements and then call it an "expansion". Roll
Oska Rus
Free Ice Cream People
#3 - 2013-10-30 13:13:12 UTC
Because armour tank is better. You need meds for ewarrrrrr :D
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-10-30 15:40:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
Ok well let's have a look at this. Below is what you need for a T2 tank (Repair / hardeners / plate or extender).

Armor : 557.255 SP
- Hull Upgrades 5 (Rank2)
- Repair System 4 (rank1)

Shields: 527.530 SP
- Shield Operation 5 (Rank1)
- Shield Upgrades 4 (rank2)
- Tactical Shield Manipulation 4 (Rank4)

That's not counting the vital shield skills:
- Shield Management (Rank3)
- Shield Compensation (Rank2)

You are upset you have to train 30K more in one skill and 2 entire skills less? If anything, Armor is much easier and much faster to train than Shields.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2013-10-30 18:00:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Aivo Dresden wrote:
Ok well let's have a look at this. Below is what you need for a T2 tank (Repair / hardeners / plate or extender).

Armor : 557.255 SP
- Hull Upgrades 5 (Rank2)
- Repair System 4 (rank1)

Shields: 527.530 SP
- Shield Operation 5 (Rank1)
- Shield Upgrades 4 (rank2)
- Tactical Shield Manipulation 4 (Rank4)

That's not counting the vital shield skills:
- Shield Management (Rank3)
- Shield Compensation (Rank2)

You are upset you have to train 30K more in one skill and 2 entire skills less? If anything, Armor is much easier and much faster to train than Shields.

To be honest anyone who is really serious about armor tanking will have Repair Systems V, Armor Layering IV, and all four armor compensation skills to at least IV, probably V, in addition to the skills you listed.
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-10-30 18:18:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
Yea but the compensation skills you have for shields too.

The armor layering and resistance phasing skills are both rank 3 skills. Assuming you max out both, its 2.304.000 sp for armor vs 3.072.000 sp for Shields (not counting the compensations, as they are identical or an extra 2.048.000 sp for both).

That said, Most people leave Tactical Shield Manipulation at 4 as it is arguably better, so that would equal to 2.229.020 sp vs the 2.304.000 for Armor.

All in all, I think the 2 are fairly even SP wise. Just different skills at different ranks. The overall training time is comparable.
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
#7 - 2013-10-30 18:31:12 UTC
As someone who recently returned from some time off, are the adaptive resistance modules worth it? I learned to play with specific hardeners, but I haven't played around with the adaptive ones.
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-10-30 19:17:26 UTC
They have their use in certain situations. It depends largely on what you're planning on doing with your ship.

Give us an example. :P
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2013-10-30 19:18:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Aivo Dresden wrote:
Yea but the compensation skills you have for shields too.

The armor layering and resistance phasing skills are both rank 3 skills. Assuming you max out both, its 2.304.000 sp for armor vs 3.072.000 sp for Shields (not counting the compensations, as they are identical or an extra 2.048.000 sp for both).

That said, Most people leave Tactical Shield Manipulation at 4 as it is arguably better, so that would equal to 2.229.020 sp vs the 2.304.000 for Armor.

All in all, I think the 2 are fairly even SP wise. Just different skills at different ranks. The overall training time is comparable.

Given that the shield compensation skills are almost wasted SP and not worth training while the armor compensation skills are essentially mandatory I would disagree.

Well trained armor tanking would be the following skills:

Hull Upgrades V rank 2
Repair Systems V rank 1
EM Armor Compensation V rank 2
Thermal Armor Compensation V rank 2
Kinetic Armor Compensation V rank 2
Explosive Armor Compensation V rank 2
Armor Layering IV rank 3

Which is 11 total ranks in skills trained to level V and 3 total ranks in skills trained to level IV.

While well trained shield tanking would be:

Shield Operation V rank 1
Shield Upgrades IV rank 2
Tactical Shield Manipulation IV rank 4
Shield Management V rank 3
Shield Compensation IV rank 2

Which is 4 total ranks in skills trained to V and and 8 total ranks in skills trained to level IV.

Even if you take Tactical Shield Manipulation and Shield Compensation to V you are still a full rank lower on the level V total while being only 1 rank higher on the level IV total. So good armor tanking takes more training than good shield tanking. That being said I generally prefer armor tanking personally.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2013-10-30 19:22:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
OllieNorth wrote:
As someone who recently returned from some time off, are the adaptive resistance modules worth it? I learned to play with specific hardeners, but I haven't played around with the adaptive ones.

Their main selling point is that they are stacking penalized with DCUs instead of normal hardeners so they can be amazingly useful in both PvP and PvE. Especially on capital ships. However their massive cap use (which gets worse the more you train them) and the time it takes for them to adapt makes it hard to justify fitting one on anything smaller than a battleship.
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-10-30 19:50:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Given that the shield compensation skills are almost wasted SP and not worth training while the armor compensation skills are essentially mandatory I would disagree.

I think that's highly situational. I would agree the armor ones are 'more useful' simple because pretty much anyone flying armor will fit an EANM.

The shield ones I found useful on a passive Nighthawk / Rattlesnake / ... fit. Basically anything you will run in to a heavy neuting environment. Especially the EM one isn't a bad one to train, since most ships have inherent weaknesses to EM damage. They also use a little less CPU, so it frees up fitting for other modules. :P

Edit: Now that I think of it. I'm pretty sure I've used passive modules on a Gila as well. So not entirely wasted skill points. If they do ever decide to add a shield module counterpart to armor's EANM, the shield compensation skills would be more useful. :P
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-10-31 04:05:45 UTC
Anyone who trains shield comps at all is doing it wrong.

Shield tanking need 4 skills (upgrades, tactical, operation, management) to 4 to be virtually 100% effective.
Total training time is a week.

Armour needs hull ups 5 and the 4 comp skills to 4.
Total training time is 2 weeks.
(Note that this isnt including layering or resistance phasing since theyre secondary skills not needed for general tanking.)


(The active skills are the same for both so irrelevant.)

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Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-10-31 10:07:04 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Anyone who trains shield comps at all is doing it wrong.
Shield tanking need 4 skills (upgrades, tactical, operation, management) to 4 to be virtually 100% effective.
Total training time is a week.

Incorrect, t2 XL Shield boosters require Shield Operation 5.

There is a place for the compensations as well, saying it's wrong makes you look pretty ignorant to what a certain part of the EVE population does. Maybe for you they have no use, but don't talk for everyone. Some players get a lot of use out of those skills.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#14 - 2013-10-31 17:00:11 UTC
Is everyone aware the shield and armor comp skills no longer apply to active modules even if they are off?

So, they really aren't that great for either, unless you are passive tank which isn't even possible for armor unless you have Logi.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#15 - 2013-10-31 17:10:19 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Is everyone aware the shield and armor comp skills no longer apply to active modules even if they are off?

So, they really aren't that great for either, unless you are passive tank which isn't even possible for armor unless you have Logi.


EANMs. Shield comps are kind of meh because no one really uses resist amps, but everyone and their brother uses EANMs so armor comps are still very much in demand.
Skittles Austrene
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2013-11-05 16:18:08 UTC
Aivo Dresden wrote:
Ok well let's have a look at this. Below is what you need for a T2 tank (Repair / hardeners / plate or extender).

Armor : 557.255 SP
- Hull Upgrades 5 (Rank2)
- Repair System 4 (rank1)

Shields: 527.530 SP
- Shield Operation 5 (Rank1)
- Shield Upgrades 4 (rank2)
- Tactical Shield Manipulation 4 (Rank4)

That's not counting the vital shield skills:
- Shield Management (Rank3)
- Shield Compensation (Rank2)

You are upset you have to train 30K more in one skill and 2 entire skills less? If anything, Armor is much easier and much faster to train than Shields.


I'm not upset. I'm confused and asking a question.

I skilled Shield Upgrades 4 and I could fit T2 shield extenders. Then I skilled Hull Upgrades 4 and I couldn't fit T2 armor plates. It just seemed like they ought to be equivalent. If I'm understanding the list of skills above, it looks like CCP decided to reverse the costs T2 repairs and augments.

On an armor fit the plates take more skill to fit but you can T2 rep cheaper. On a shield fit the extenders take less skill to fit but you need more skill to T2 repair.

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#17 - 2013-11-05 16:41:14 UTC
This is new.... not.

CCP have said it is because shield tanking and armor tanking are different.

There is no promise of balance in EVE.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#18 - 2013-11-07 04:50:05 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Aivo Dresden wrote:
Yea but the compensation skills you have for shields too.

The armor layering and resistance phasing skills are both rank 3 skills. Assuming you max out both, its 2.304.000 sp for armor vs 3.072.000 sp for Shields (not counting the compensations, as they are identical or an extra 2.048.000 sp for both).

That said, Most people leave Tactical Shield Manipulation at 4 as it is arguably better, so that would equal to 2.229.020 sp vs the 2.304.000 for Armor.

All in all, I think the 2 are fairly even SP wise. Just different skills at different ranks. The overall training time is comparable.

Given that the shield compensation skills are almost wasted SP and not worth training while the armor compensation skills are essentially mandatory I would disagree.

Well trained armor tanking would be the following skills:

Hull Upgrades V rank 2
Repair Systems V rank 1
EM Armor Compensation V rank 2
Thermal Armor Compensation V rank 2
Kinetic Armor Compensation V rank 2
Explosive Armor Compensation V rank 2
Armor Layering IV rank 3

Which is 11 total ranks in skills trained to level V and 3 total ranks in skills trained to level IV.

While well trained shield tanking would be:

Shield Operation V rank 1
Shield Upgrades IV rank 2
Tactical Shield Manipulation IV rank 4
Shield Management V rank 3
Shield Compensation IV rank 2

Which is 4 total ranks in skills trained to V and and 8 total ranks in skills trained to level IV.

Even if you take Tactical Shield Manipulation and Shield Compensation to V you are still a full rank lower on the level V total while being only 1 rank higher on the level IV total. So good armor tanking takes more training than good shield tanking. That being said I generally prefer armor tanking personally.




You conveniently forgot 4 of the shield skills.
The EM, Thermal, Kinetic and Exp comp ones.

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Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2013-11-07 15:20:21 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
You conveniently forgot 4 of the shield skills.
The EM, Thermal, Kinetic and Exp comp ones.

I didn't forget them. They just aren't worth training.
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2013-11-09 00:23:47 UTC
Alice Ituin wrote:
Because the skilltree is a complete mess and needs a major rework?
Maybe someday CCP will move around some skill requirements and then call it an "expansion". Roll



And maybe someday they'll start charging for expansions, like every other game ever.
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