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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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GetSirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1401 - 2013-10-30 02:57:00 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:

a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%

b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.

Let me know what you think.



There is no need for a limit, since the player deploying has the empty these things.

Quote:
It has a capacity of 1200 m³. If it is full, it stops stealing.


As for deceiving the API? Firstly I recall that wormhole jumps were removed from data extract. Otherwise just check jumps in the hole and know that someone is cloaked within. So defeats the purpose intended of no local. So would having honesty of API reporting a deficit of moongoo. The alternative would be for the API cease reporting moongoo production. There is a precedent after all.
My Little Pyongyang
Doomheim
#1402 - 2013-10-30 06:50:02 UTC
This is wonderful. Goons crying about siphons, PL crying about instant on grid dics, this expansion is going to be beautiful.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#1403 - 2013-10-30 07:28:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Ah yes, the mythological small-entity moon miner. Much like the fabled unicorn of olde. It's simply heartwarming to see all of the larger moon mining entities rise up to the defense of the little man.

And of course, these small-entity moon miners control the most valuable of low sec moons and would naturally be the first targets of so-called griefers, unlike all of the big entities which content themselves with the more worthless moons. You lot are truly magnanimous.


I ran a plat moon out of arida for 6 months. ie I am the small moon miner you speak of. I serviced the tower weekly with a blockade runner, and I lost the tower when I unsubbed for work reasons for a while.

I can tell you right now, that i know exactly how much a blockade runner full of plat is, and as it stands right now, there is absolutely no reason I'd attempt to siphon plat.

If was going to siphon anything, it would be a once a month serviced by jump bridge R64 that everyone nearly forgot about, because its just not worth flying a BR for less.

Also I'll note with a great deal of amusement that one of the changes wrought by nerfing moon income, is that I am now a renter who lives in null and who considers how to recruit more people to null. Even more amusingly there is a plat moon in the system that I rent, that the CFC hasn't towered, so I could actually ninja the moon altogether, yet I haven't bothered.
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#1404 - 2013-10-30 07:41:53 UTC
The mechanic is broken....there will be more siphons than ships.
We will spam this units just for ***** and giggles...everywhere.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1405 - 2013-10-30 07:58:49 UTC
Hell, the goons can siphon every other moon in the game as long as I can siphon me their dyspro, prom, and neo.

Goons: "We'll steal all your dirt!"
Everyone Else: "K mate, we'll just help ourselves to some of your gold."
Twisted
Anomaly One
Doomheim
#1406 - 2013-10-30 08:07:58 UTC
Eugene Kerner wrote:
The mechanic is broken....there will be more siphons than ships.
We will spam this units just for ***** and giggles...everywhere.


I'm hoping every low sec entity does the same
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1407 - 2013-10-30 08:41:49 UTC
Sweet this sounds nice :) got 8 covert ops alts, busy times ahead

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1408 - 2013-10-30 09:58:15 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Sweet this sounds nice :) got 8 covert ops alts, busy times ahead
May sound nice when you say it fast but did you add up how much it will cost you to deploy syphon's with those 8 alts?? 10 a piece (to stand a chance of it paying) is an 800 mil outlay.. Better hope no-one steals from your syphon's or worse blows them up for jollies.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Gothikia
Wicked Cartel
#1409 - 2013-10-30 10:00:00 UTC
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Sparkus Volundar wrote:
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Two step wrote:
Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about?


Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.


Sorry for probably unneeded question about potential bug: This reporting will account for the 20% loss? Just asking because "what is syphoned" sounds potentially different to what was mined/made.

Thanks,
Sparks

Yes it will account for the lossed items as well. The idea is that you wouldn't notice that you were being siphoned from the API.


Whoever came up with this needs to be slapped. This is quite possibly one of the most ******** things in the history of retardation without a microgram of exaggeration.

This game feature isn't something that will affect me... but it's ******* ******** nonetheless. Get your **** together CCP, jesus ******* christ.

<3 Gothie
Gothikia
Wicked Cartel
#1410 - 2013-10-30 10:00:47 UTC
I hate these stupid filters on the forums too btw....

<3 Gothie
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#1411 - 2013-10-30 10:29:48 UTC
Wow, so many people still believe this will actually be an awesome tool to hurt the Big Bad Goon. So, so much "grrr goon" in this thread.

The truth is, to profit from this moongoo you need to also haul it out of the area. For one, show up at the siphon you've dropped with an industrial. Blockade runners won't be able to fit a lot into them, and anything larger may have slight issues leaving the space. Of course, there are ways to shuffle the goo out quickly but they'd be mostly utilized by organized entities. Entities such as the Big Bad Goon.

Even if you leave the goods and destroy the siphon, you will just contribute to the price increase - something those entities will benefit from. All in all it's a great idea, a wonderfully trolly idea but needs some work in implementation. Else we'll all drown in tears.

(For starters, I'd look into the mis-reporting API. If you want to generate conflict, you want people knowing about their POS being drained if they're paying enough attention to send a defense gang.)

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp
Retribution.
#1412 - 2013-10-30 10:38:58 UTC  |  Edited by: ImYourMom
what a good idea in theory! in practice forget it. Firstly you have got to get to the POS WITHOUT being insta killed, warp scrammed yada yada, then secondly the POS will take out the siphon unit in seconds once the pos gunner alt logs in. Seriously what is the point of such a stupid.

So either you will be dead before you even start to deploy it, or/and the siphon unit will be killed not long after. So again this wont affect any large alliances not even smaller corps/alliances.

Anything worth stealing and because of the changes recently (wont be worth stealing because of the paltry amounts you can take). Again another very high risk for the tiniest reward. Also the main r64 moons will be gunned up to the max.

You going to make nothing at all, all it could be (if you actually managed not to die) is a little flea in someones ear. But again log in ALT pos gunner, problem solved.

can you imagine romping up to a fully gunned out POS in your industrial to pick up the mins = poof bye bye ship.

Seriously ccp do you even think about this stuff or just make up ideas in your head and implement them without a single iota of real thought.

complete waste of time
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#1413 - 2013-10-30 15:01:36 UTC
ImYourMom wrote:
what a good idea in theory! in practice forget it. Firstly you have got to get to the POS WITHOUT being insta killed, warp scrammed yada yada, then secondly the POS will take out the siphon unit in seconds once the pos gunner alt logs in. Seriously what is the point of such a stupid.

So either you will be dead before you even start to deploy it, or/and the siphon unit will be killed not long after. So again this wont affect any large alliances not even smaller corps/alliances.

Anything worth stealing and because of the changes recently (wont be worth stealing because of the paltry amounts you can take). Again another very high risk for the tiniest reward. Also the main r64 moons will be gunned up to the max.

You going to make nothing at all, all it could be (if you actually managed not to die) is a little flea in someones ear. But again log in ALT pos gunner, problem solved.

can you imagine romping up to a fully gunned out POS in your industrial to pick up the mins = poof bye bye ship.

Seriously ccp do you even think about this stuff or just make up ideas in your head and implement them without a single iota of real thought.

complete waste of time

Jon Snow?

Nyan
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1414 - 2013-10-30 16:01:02 UTC
Narffy wrote:

You're assuming people will be using siphons to make isk. They're really going to be used for griefing and the easiest targets by a large margin are smaller lowsec corps. I can easily afford to buy thousands of siphons just to screw with people. However, I probably don't need to bother beings Goons have trillions of isk to spend on assaulting lowsec.

For lowsec corps to run the complex reactions, simple reactions must first be run by someone and you can't run an entire chain at a single POS.


If you think spending hundreds of hours planting your thousands of siphons and giving billions worth of free killmails to the pos owners is "griefing", then yes


.
irish84
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1415 - 2013-10-30 17:00:55 UTC
if someone is able to fly by and pick these things up and they only take up 20m3, but can hold 1200m3, are people going to be able to pick them up while full and will it still be 20m3?
Orakkus
ImperiaI Federation
Goonswarm Federation
#1416 - 2013-10-30 17:09:05 UTC
irish84 wrote:
if someone is able to fly by and pick these things up and they only take up 20m3, but can hold 1200m3, are people going to be able to pick them up while full and will it still be 20m3?


You can't pick them up. Once they are deployed, they stay deployed until destroyed.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
irish84
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1417 - 2013-10-30 17:35:03 UTC
Orakkus wrote:
irish84 wrote:
if someone is able to fly by and pick these things up and they only take up 20m3, but can hold 1200m3, are people going to be able to pick them up while full and will it still be 20m3?


You can't pick them up. Once they are deployed, they stay deployed until destroyed.


Oh right yea its still early for me and I just didn't read that part right. For some reason I saw you can pick them up, but now since i went back I see where I read it wrong. Thanks
Grace Chang
Tyrannis Enterprises
#1418 - 2013-10-30 17:37:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Grace Chang
I think something obvious is missed here. You do not have to do complicated logistics with black ops and such. The obvious way is to get one alt into the x000 alliances (or any blued entity) and deploy siphons with an unrelated char. Then exchange the loot via GSC cans or in space.

This module will enable the grunts to steal from the alliance leadership. And most likely this will happen to some extend. Personally i think this is great. To prevent this, you cannot just invite anybody to your alliance or blue everyone, you actually have to have a trust relationship to some extend. Which in turn means smaller alliances and less blues.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1419 - 2013-10-30 18:07:10 UTC
I can't wait until the whine thread about these after Rubicon comes out
"CCP goons are siphoning everyone's lowsec moongoo and nobody can make any isk anymore!"

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Orakkus
ImperiaI Federation
Goonswarm Federation
#1420 - 2013-10-30 18:47:46 UTC
I think another factor we need to consider on this issue has not really been revealed yet. That is the deployable storage unit (though, I may have missed the dev posts on it - please link it if they have given some more info on that).. That, in conjuction with the Siphon unit will really determine how successful the intent of the siphon will be.

Here's how I see original basic intent:

Individual A wants to slurp some moon goo and reactions from Group B.
Individual A then sneaks into the region, finds a nearby system that is relatively dead, and drops a storage unit*.
Individual A quickly drops a Siphon unit or two on all the target POSes - Max possibility of ten POSes.
Every 24 hours, assuming Group B isn't paying attention, Individual A goes out and scoops the moon goo/reactions using a Blockade Runner.
Moon Goon/Reactions slurped by Individual A gets dumped in his Deployable Storage Unit for later pick up.
Individual A, after deployable storage unit is full, either a.) Brings in a Jump Freighter, or b.) tries to sneak it out in a Deep Space Transport.

Now, this is the only potential direct "for profit" use I see, and it doesn't take into account the realities of where the locations of the moons are in relation to each other. Yes, you could go back and forth to a station with a transport but that is pretty situational, and isn't generally very practical, especially since there is the option to keep harvesting so long as no one interrupts the siphon, either by stealing the goo/reactions or by destroying the siphon. So, I think it would be nice to hear some more specifics about the storage unit, like:

- How much will the storage unit hold and will there be difference sizes (i.e. small, medium, large, etc.).
- How long do they stay out in space.
- Cost of Storage Units
- Pre-deploy size of Storage Units
- Signature size (i.e. how difficult will it be to scan them down?)

It could be that some or all of these questions have been already answered, and feel free to tell me what they are. However, I think the ultimiate viability of the Siphon units a being a tool for anyone other than a major alliance hinges on the answers to those questions.

(*The Same thing can be achieved by a group, however, at this time since the Deployable Storage unit is only accessable by the person who deployed, then a POS with appropriate mods will have to be set up.)

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander