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Suggesting updated rules for highsec capitals

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Thelonious Blake
Miles Research and Development
#61 - 2013-10-30 14:02:04 UTC
GM Spiral wrote:
This includes attacking or defending from belt rats, and will also include the new player owned customs offices in high sec that are coming.


So once again you are punishing someone because of a nonexistent rule that you plan to make existent sometimes soon™.
Jayne Fillon
#62 - 2013-10-30 14:08:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jayne Fillon
Howdy - I wrote the article on themittani.com regarding Asectus' Archon. I recommend you give it a read if you're not sure about the context of this Archon loss, or the decisions and interactions that occured with the GMs. Sorry I can't provide a direct link to the source because that would violate Rule #9. Lol

The problem here is that Asectus only ASKED about shooting NOCOs, never actually did. Therefore, the relation between this and the GM's order for the Archon to be removed from highsec is nonexistent and completely irrelevant.

A GM stated that the use of a Drone Control Unit on Asectus' Archon was what constituted as a rule violation.

This is what we need explained, not what the GMs would have decided in a theoretical situation.

Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI.
Angel-agl Katelo
The Fallen Angel Corp
#63 - 2013-10-30 14:09:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Angel-agl Katelo
GM Spiral wrote:
As we have stated we are fully open to suggestions and ideas on how we should handle these exceptions, or even if we should have these exceptions at all. If you feel strongly about this then please lend your opinion to the discussion.



Believe me you do not want to hear my suggestion on this matter.

I got no problem telling CCP where they can put that Archon
Nicen Jehr
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#64 - 2013-10-30 14:11:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicen Jehr
??? wrote:
"A player may not activate any hostile or assisting module, nor make use of any kind of drone or fighter drone, against any kind of structure (player or NPC owned), ship (player or NPC owned), or other asset (player or NPC owned) in high-security space with a capital ship normally restricted (under normal game mechanics) to 0.4 space or lower. "
Thank you GM Spiral this is quite clear, my next question is, where is this rule found? I am not a highsec cap pilot but these details are not mentioned in the Evelopedia page: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Capitals_in_Highsec nor in the linked posts from GM Grimmi. Without knowing the details you just posted it is not clear that killing rats with your highsec capital is disallowed. Surely Chribba has killed rats while mining?

Little Things to improve ≡⋁≡ | My Little Things posts
Sheave Yens Nor
Nocturnal Tumescence
#65 - 2013-10-30 14:20:42 UTC
You know, I used to think that CCP had some kind of grand plan for the EvE universe, and even though we may not be privy to that plan in it's entirety and therefore may not understand bizarre rule changes, it still exists. Now I'm starting to think they're just a bunch of regular dudes who've caught the dragon by the tail and are holding on for dear life; in short, they have no idea what they're doing and making snap decisions without rhyme or reason is their way of trying to convince the player base (and possibly themselves) that they're in control.

At least that's how it looks to me...
Astecus
Utama Incorporated
Astral Alliance
#66 - 2013-10-30 14:22:25 UTC
GM Spiral wrote:
"A player may not activate any hostile or assisting module, nor make use of any kind of drone or fighter drone, against any kind of structure (player or NPC owned), ship (player or NPC owned), or other asset (player or NPC owned) in high-security space with a capital ship normally restricted (under normal game mechanics) to 0.4 space or lower. "

Is this clear enough? :)

This is perfectly clear, tell me - why haven't you updated the rules accordingly? I believe you could express it more concise:

1. High security capitals may never do hostile actions or remote assistance towards any other entity, player or NPC owned.
2. High security capitals may never change hands ever.

One interesting question is if such a pilot would then get banned if he ejected from his capital.

Reloaded Main: Astevon | Creator of the Anti-ganking channel, Anti-ganking.net and AstralServices.net
Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
#67 - 2013-10-30 14:27:16 UTC
Jayne Fillon wrote:
Howdy - I wrote the article on themittani.com regarding Asectus' Archon. I recommend you give it a read if you're not sure about the context of this Archon loss, or the decisions and interactions that occured with the GMs. Sorry I can't provide a direct link to the source because that would violate Rule #9. Lol

The problem here is that Asectus only ASKED about shooting NOCOs, never actually did. Therefore, the relation between this and the GM's order for the Archon to be removed from highsec is nonexistent and completely irrelevant.

A GM stated that the use of a Drone Control Unit on Asectus' Archon was what constituted as a rule violation.

This is what we need explained, not what the GMs would have decided in a theoretical situation.



"No, it's not okay and we're taking your Archon to lowsec just because you asked if it was."

Wait, what?

"Don't ask us if you're allowed to do something, we might decide you're a nuisance and get rid of you in response."

Does the GM team really want to be perceived like this?
ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp
Retribution.
#68 - 2013-10-30 14:29:33 UTC
How about - Capitals cannot be used in highsec for pvp or pve - full stop
Treborr MintingtonJr
S.N.O.T
S.N.O.T.
#69 - 2013-10-30 14:37:03 UTC
"3. You may not use your capital ship’s attributes to gain any sort of advantage over other players while in high security space."

I'm still confused how this carrier was used to gain any sort of advantage over other players?
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#70 - 2013-10-30 14:37:42 UTC
I'm confused...where does the drone control unit enter into it?

Since mining is explicitly allowed, is one expected to launch only 5 mining drones so as not to exceed the capabilities of non-capital ships? If so this would all make sense, but it seems a little pedantic, don't you think? What kind of impact could a 5 DCU 15 mining drone archon really have? Why is it so much worse than 10 drones? 5?

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#71 - 2013-10-30 14:38:38 UTC
Treborr MintingtonJr wrote:
"3. You may not use your capital ship’s attributes to gain any sort of advantage over other players while in high security space."

I'm still confused how this carrier was used to gain any sort of advantage over other players?


It had more mining drones than it is possible to have on the subcap with the most drones I guess (Guardian Vexor).

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Treborr MintingtonJr
S.N.O.T
S.N.O.T.
#72 - 2013-10-30 14:45:23 UTC
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
Treborr MintingtonJr wrote:
"3. You may not use your capital ship’s attributes to gain any sort of advantage over other players while in high security space."

I'm still confused how this carrier was used to gain any sort of advantage over other players?


It had more mining drones than it is possible to have on the subcap with the most drones I guess (Guardian Vexor).


Can 15 mining drones mine faster than the best mining ship?
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#73 - 2013-10-30 14:46:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravcharas
ImYourMom wrote:
How about - Capitals cannot be used in highsec for pvp or pve - full stop

How about 'Players can only undock or board a capital in high security space if they are in a player corporation' - that way we could maybe get some interesting stories out of these hangar ornaments. (And that's the one rule, by the way. All other rules are defunct. Use them to do whatever you want.)

Also you could make this part of the code and not have to worry about GM roulette in regards to this issue ever again.
Grumbletwerp Bumball
Tycho Corp
#74 - 2013-10-30 14:49:08 UTC
I don't understand, Why make special rules for high sec capitals.
the supply is limited and its not super hard to kill a single capital with a blob of smaller ships(which is easy to field in high sec)
wouldn't letting people use them however they wanted just result in the people who use them in pvp loosing them eventually and only people who keep to themselves and dodge conflict being able to keep them?

The entire way this seems to be being handled seems completely unprofessional.
GM Spiral
Game Master Retirement Home
#75 - 2013-10-30 14:50:51 UTC
The rules clarification written in this thread were written in response to this thread and are not currently on the Evelopedia. We'll make sure it is clear enough and then update the page. If you have any further feedback on this, it is welcome.


Capitals in high-sec are a legacy issue from way back when for a brief time certain types of capitals could be produced in high security space. Community feedback at the time resulted in the current incarnation of the rules and the permission for those capitals already built in high-sec to remain there. The discussion to change or remove these rules and special permissions has come up a few times in the past decade, but has been inconclusive.

The rules could be interpreted as an incentive for a high-sec capital pilot to contact us and request relocation to a low-sec system on their own accord. Ultimately it is an exception to intended and established game mechanics and will have to be continued being treated in that way.

And always remember: You can always defer a decision to a senior game master for a review. Our game masters are all human and have been known to err occasionally. We are usually more than happy to discuss and amend as required. :)

Senior Game Master | CCP Games Customer Support Team

Helping capsuleers since 2004.
Nicen Jehr
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#76 - 2013-10-30 14:54:49 UTC
edit: wrote before GM spiral's last comment. leaving intact.

Is GM Spiral's clarification a quote of an existing rule, that's just hard to find? If so then I can't argue against CCPs policy of absolute enforcement (even though I do disagree with it and suggest that the rules be made absolutely clear in one easy to find place.)

On the other hand, if GM Spiral just wrote up this detailed language about NPC structures and ships now, it's unjust to apply the ruling to OP, since as best he knew, he was not violating any rules. "You may not use your capital ship’s attributes to gain any sort of advantage over other players while in high security space." As OP points out, the action he took (killing a handful of belt rats) could have been taken by other players in other setups, thus he gained no advantage . If he brought the cap to a highsec incursion and tried to steal the rewards from other players, THAT would be using his capital ship's attributes to gain an advantage over the other subcap incursion pilots.

Little Things to improve ≡⋁≡ | My Little Things posts
Money Makin Mitch
Paid in Full
#77 - 2013-10-30 14:55:27 UTC
Sirinda wrote:



"No, it's not okay and we're taking your Archon to lowsec just because you asked if it was."

Wait, what?

"Don't ask us if you're allowed to do something, we might decide you're a nuisance and get rid of you in response."

Does the GM team really want to be perceived like this?

not only that, it seems there was a 2 week ban involved from what i read in the other thread

so, moving his **** and banning him for asking a question?

you guys really must want your customers to stop being customers huh
Astecus
Utama Incorporated
Astral Alliance
#78 - 2013-10-30 15:03:30 UTC
GM Spiral wrote:
As for the OP, your ticket is still open you can still exercise your right to have the matter reviewed by a senior member of the GM department if you believe things to be amiss and it will be investigated.

Thanks for mentioning this, may I ask where I can find more information about how to do this correctly?

Reloaded Main: Astevon | Creator of the Anti-ganking channel, Anti-ganking.net and AstralServices.net
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2013-10-30 15:15:24 UTC
Nice article, Jayne.

CCP when someone files a petition, which in this case was not utter crap, it's just bad form to shut the door on their face. And NOW GM spiral says that 'your ticket is still open'. That 2 week ban was a bit of an over-reaction too.

C'mon CCP we aren't your enemies here. Some of us have been with you throughout the whole time Eve has been online. Don't you think we deserve more of your patience?

Sugar Von MurdererTits : Jake Warbird gets my vote for most intriguing and attractive male character in Eve.
Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
#80 - 2013-10-30 15:16:24 UTC
Money Makin Mitch wrote:
a 2 week ban


Wait, what?