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SomerBlinks non-RMT RL earnings

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RAW23
#241 - 2013-10-29 16:49:29 UTC
Handsome Feller wrote:
I'm kinda curious about you people who are still baying for Somer's blood. I get that you're unhappy. I am too. Favoritism is bad. Messing with the sandbox is bad. There's a lot to not like. But have you really thought about what it means if CCP were to kick Somer out? Do you not realize how horrifically bad this would make CCP look? Analogy time.

Old Lady: I would like to cross the road.
Policeman: OK, go and cross the road.
Old Lady: It is OK for me to cross the road then?
Policeman: Oh yes.
Policeman: Tell you what, I'll even give you a hand.
Old Lady: Sweet!
Policeman: That's OK, I heard you help out other people too.
Old Lady: Yes, sometimes I do, but it often benefits me too (sinister cackle).
Policeman: OK, you can manage the rest of the way.
Old Lady: Thanks, almost there. See you around!
Policeman: STOP! OR I'LL SHOOT.
Old Lady: Errr OK, I've stopped. I've done as you aske....
Policeman: Sorry, got to kill you now.

Old Lady gets mown down in a hail of gunfire.

Is this really the CCP you guys would be happy doing business with? They've been giving Somer the green light for years. They've been thanking them. They've given them their blessing. This is indisputable.

Now you want CCP to do a u-turn and "mow them down". You're the same guys who ***** about CCP not being trustworthy right? The ones who get all butt hurt when CCP renege on delivering something, yeah? The ones who cry rivers of tears when you're told you can go ahead and do something, but then are told later you should stop doing it. At least they didn't ban you once you had stopped.

But now all of a sudden, you actually want CCP to act in this way. People, get a grip for once. Please.


Great post and good points. Personally, as I see it the blame is really all with CCP. However, there might also be an argument that Somer is at fault for wrongly accepting inappropriate help from CCP, just as BoB were at fault for wrongly accepting T2 BPOs from their pet developer. If CCP did explicitly ok Somer's business model then it would really be pretty grim of them to punish him for it now. But if they didn't and it was just overlooked ... At the same time, if CCP did explicitly allow Somer's business model then heads should genuinely roll as they have now made clear that this behaviour is inappropriate for everyone else.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#242 - 2013-10-29 16:50:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Handsome Feller wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Crossing the road was always against the law, just because some cops looked the other way for a few years does not change that fact.


Logic fail. There's only one cop and he was happy with you crossing the road every single day. He also helped you to cross the road. But one day, he killed you for it.


You do understand that loopholes in laws/rules/EULAs often get closed? Using your analogy closed = killed.

Sometimes a loophole becomes a noose, as CCP is finding out.

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Ace Boogi
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#243 - 2013-10-29 16:51:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Ace Boogi
Winchester Steele wrote:

Aside from your terrible analogy which makes no sense (in what way is SOMER like a little old lady?), I would be satisfied to know that SOMER loses his RL cash cow. Who gives a rat's ass about the imaginary pixel side of it. RL tears, best tears.

Somer will still be sitting on a fat pile of ISK even if they lose the cash cow. at that point, she could get all bittervet about it and just RMT the old fashioned way. coupled with rumours i'd previously heard about Somer staff about to finish university (can't confirm this), it would be the perfect time/situation for them to say **** it and cash everything out and quit the game. i mean, just looking at it so far, they don't seem to have any ethics, so what exactly would prevent this?

the seizure of all in-game assets and currency and a permanent ban for all associated accounts.

you know... like they do with everyone else who RMTs.
Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#244 - 2013-10-29 16:52:54 UTC
Ace Boogi wrote:

yes, it would mean the rules are being applied fairly, for once. everyone else who shows the slightest hint of RMT gets a banhammer, but in this case we have clear evidence of massive ongoing RMT to the tune of over $135k over several years. if that isn't ban-worthy, i don't know what is.


So you'd be perfectly happy for CCP to tell you that evading Concord in highsec is fine. So you evade Concord. But then the next day they ban you for it? Providing they ban everyone who evaded Concord (after being told it's OK), you'd be cool with that?
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#245 - 2013-10-29 16:53:03 UTC
Handsome Feller wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Crossing the road was always against the law, just because some cops looked the other way for a few years does not change that fact.


Logic fail. There's only one cop and he was happy with you crossing the road every single day. He also helped you to cross the road. But one day, he killed you for it.
Well no, not really. There was one cop, and there were lots of people loudly crossing the road and they stopped them crossing all the time. But the little old lady was quietly sneaking across the road, while the cop was busy elsewhere.
Now that everyone behaving themselves by not crossing the road has said "hey, look at that old lady, she's been crossing the road!", and some people have been saying "look, look at how I can cross the road sneakily", the cop now is changing how he enforces the already existing law to prevent the old lady crossing sneakily.
The old lady should get the chair since she's a far worse road crosser than a blatant road crosser, as she knowingly sneaks across the road!

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#246 - 2013-10-29 16:53:34 UTC
Handsome Feller wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Crossing the road was always against the law, just because some cops looked the other way for a few years does not change that fact.


Logic fail. There's only one cop and he was happy with you crossing the road every single day. He also helped you to cross the road. But one day, he killed you for it.


But now the car drivers say that its not OK to shut down a complete highway just because ol' granny wants to cross it.

RATE LIKE SUBSCRIBE
Winchester Steele
#247 - 2013-10-29 16:54:17 UTC
Handsome Feller wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Crossing the road was always against the law, just because some cops looked the other way for a few years does not change that fact.


Logic fail. There's only one cop and he was happy with you crossing the road every single day. He also helped you to cross the road. But one day, he killed you for it.


A better analogy would be:

Corrupt cop helps lady illegally cross the road for a share of the illicit road crossing profit.(where do you get this stuff???).
There is an investigation and cops corrupt activity is exposed alongside ladies corrupt activity.
Court convicts both and justice gets served. Lady gets 20 to life, no parole. Cop gets shitcanned.
Hopefully the new cop isnt such a corrupt money-grubbing dbag.

The end.

...

RAW23
#248 - 2013-10-29 16:54:24 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Handsome Feller wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Crossing the road was always against the law, just because some cops looked the other way for a few years does not change that fact.


Logic fail. There's only one cop and he was happy with you crossing the road every single day. He also helped you to cross the road. But one day, he killed you for it.


You do understand that loopholes often get closed? Using your analogy closed = killed.

Sometimes a loophole becomes a noose, as CCP is finding out.



Closing loopholes in one thing. Punishing someone for actions you have told them are acceptable is another. The question is, had CCP, or someone at CCP approved Somer's setup? If they had then it would be more than closing a loophole to punish Somer for acting as he had been told he could; it would be a pretty clear case of injustice. But things get tricky when we start to ask whether approval came from CCP or just someone at CCP and whether CCP would stand behind their someone in this case. T20 was someone at CCP and they didn't stand behind him. This situation is clearly not directly analogous but some of the same issues arise. If someone ok'ed Somer's business did they have the authority to do so or did they go off the reservation?

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Ace Boogi
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#249 - 2013-10-29 16:54:44 UTC
Handsome Feller wrote:
Ace Boogi wrote:

yes, it would mean the rules are being applied fairly, for once. everyone else who shows the slightest hint of RMT gets a banhammer, but in this case we have clear evidence of massive ongoing RMT to the tune of over $135k over several years. if that isn't ban-worthy, i don't know what is.


So you'd be perfectly happy for CCP to tell you that evading Concord in highsec is fine. So you evade Concord. But then the next day they ban you for it? Providing they ban everyone who evaded Concord (after being told it's OK), you'd be cool with that?

bad analogy is bad. not even gonna bother.
Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#250 - 2013-10-29 16:54:49 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Handsome Feller wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Crossing the road was always against the law, just because some cops looked the other way for a few years does not change that fact.


Logic fail. There's only one cop and he was happy with you crossing the road every single day. He also helped you to cross the road. But one day, he killed you for it.
Well no, not really. There was one cop, and there were lots of people loudly crossing the road and they stopped them crossing all the time. But the little old lady was quietly sneaking across the road, while the cop was busy elsewhere.
Now that everyone behaving themselves by not crossing the road has said "hey, look at that old lady, she's been crossing the road!", and some people have been saying "look, look at how I can cross the road sneakily", the cop now is changing how he enforces the already existing law to prevent the old lady crossing sneakily.
The old lady should get the chair since she's a far worse road crosser than a blatant road crosser, as she knowingly sneaks across the road!


You missed a bit. let me help you out.

"But the little old lady was quietly sneaking across the road, AND THE COP WAS HELPING HER."
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#251 - 2013-10-29 16:56:29 UTC
Handsome Feller wrote:
Ace Boogi wrote:

yes, it would mean the rules are being applied fairly, for once. everyone else who shows the slightest hint of RMT gets a banhammer, but in this case we have clear evidence of massive ongoing RMT to the tune of over $135k over several years. if that isn't ban-worthy, i don't know what is.


So you'd be perfectly happy for CCP to tell you that evading Concord in highsec is fine. So you evade Concord. But then the next day they ban you for it? Providing they ban everyone who evaded Concord (after being told it's OK), you'd be cool with that?

If you can show me the evidence that CCP officially told Somer it was fine to RMT, I would LOVE to see it.
Now if they had banned everyone that was evading concord, but I found a way to evade concord that they couldn't track, and I used that to my advantage, I would understand entirely the epic destruction from the banhammer I would get when they found out. And that's more what Somer are doing.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Frying Doom
#252 - 2013-10-29 16:56:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Handsome Feller wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Crossing the road was always against the law, just because some cops looked the other way for a few years does not change that fact.


Logic fail. There's only one cop and he was happy with you crossing the road every single day. He also helped you to cross the road. But one day, he killed you for it.

So he saw the light and stopped being a corrupt cop and decided to follow the law instead.Smile

The law never changed. Just the cops leniency for law breakers did.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#253 - 2013-10-29 16:57:08 UTC
So what about GTC resellers like Markee Dragon and Shattered Crystal? do they now have to resell at cost to?
Handsome Feller
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#254 - 2013-10-29 16:57:38 UTC
RAW23 wrote:
Closing loopholes in one thing. Punishing someone for actions you have told them are acceptable is another. The question is, had CCP, or someone at CCP approved Somer's setup? If they had then it would be more than closing a loophole to punish Somer for acting as he had been told he could; it would be a pretty clear case of injustice. But things get tricky when we start to ask whether approval came from CCP or just someone at CCP and whether CCP would stand behind their someone in this case. T20 was someone at CCP and they didn't stand behind him. This situation is clearly not directly analogous but some of the same issues arise. If someone ok'ed Somer's business did they have the authority to do so or did they go off the reservation?


Agreed. The implication is, that CCPs gifts to Somer equate to approval. Not necessarily my opinion, but it's the opinion of many who are currently baying for Somer's blood.
Ace Boogi
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#255 - 2013-10-29 16:57:56 UTC
Handsome Feller wrote:


You missed a bit. let me help you out.

"But the little old lady was quietly sneaking across the road, AND THE COP WAS HELPING HER."



you familiar with Whitey Bulger?

he was running his racket successfully for years in part because he had help from corrupt LEO

when he was finally caught... he went on trial. he didn't get off because some crooked FBI agent helped him Roll
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#256 - 2013-10-29 16:58:25 UTC
Handsome Feller wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Handsome Feller wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Crossing the road was always against the law, just because some cops looked the other way for a few years does not change that fact.


Logic fail. There's only one cop and he was happy with you crossing the road every single day. He also helped you to cross the road. But one day, he killed you for it.
Well no, not really. There was one cop, and there were lots of people loudly crossing the road and they stopped them crossing all the time. But the little old lady was quietly sneaking across the road, while the cop was busy elsewhere.
Now that everyone behaving themselves by not crossing the road has said "hey, look at that old lady, she's been crossing the road!", and some people have been saying "look, look at how I can cross the road sneakily", the cop now is changing how he enforces the already existing law to prevent the old lady crossing sneakily.
The old lady should get the chair since she's a far worse road crosser than a blatant road crosser, as she knowingly sneaks across the road!


You missed a bit. let me help you out.

"But the little old lady was quietly sneaking across the road, AND THE COP WAS HELPING HER."

HOW was the cop helping her?
CCP didn't help Somer to RMT. CCP separately gave them items. That is: he saw the old lady, but not crossing the road, giving out sweets to the good people and thought "she could give out our good citizen medals", so he put her in charge of the good citizen medals. Now he sees she's been crossing the road. Naughty old lady.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#257 - 2013-10-29 16:59:18 UTC
Winchester Steele wrote:


A better analogy would be:

Corrupt cop helps lady illegally cross the road for a share of the illicit road crossing profit.(where do you get this stuff???).
There is an investigation and cops corrupt activity is exposed alongside ladies corrupt activity.
Court convicts both and justice gets served. Lady gets 20 to life, no parole. Cop gets shitcanned.
Hopefully the new cop isnt such a corrupt money-grubbing dbag.

The end.


this pretty much

I lol'ed

Not today spaghetti.
RAW23
#258 - 2013-10-29 16:59:24 UTC
People here not quite understanding the point of an analogy. this one captures the salient details perfectly well. Pointing out places where it differs does not help. Analogous things are by definition different from the things they are analogous to. The point of this analogy is to illuminate one particular aspect of the case - that someone in a position of authority authorized certain behaviour and that it looks pretty odd when the same authority is now being called on to punish the behaviour they (may have) authorised.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#259 - 2013-10-29 17:00:23 UTC
Rroff wrote:
So what about GTC resellers like Markee Dragon and Shattered Crystal? do they now have to resell at cost to?
No, they are an allowed reseller. Nothing changes on that front. They would not be allowed to give out in game incentives to buy though them though, but as far as I know, none of them do.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
RAW23
#260 - 2013-10-29 17:01:10 UTC
Ace Boogi wrote:
Handsome Feller wrote:


You missed a bit. let me help you out.

"But the little old lady was quietly sneaking across the road, AND THE COP WAS HELPING HER."



you familiar with Whitey Bulger?

he was running his racket successfully for years in part because he had help from corrupt LEO

when he was finally caught... he went on trial. he didn't get off because some crooked FBI agent helped him Roll


You''ve hit the nail on the head here. The question is whether CCP owns the decision of whoever approved Somer's operation or not. If they treat the dev as having gone rogue then Somer is in the position you describe. If they back the dev as executing company policy then it's not a crooked FBI agent, just an FBI agent.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.