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Crime & Punishment

 
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Goonswarm taking candy from babies via a legitimate looking website.
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Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#61 - 2011-11-17 22:46:51 UTC
Zions Child wrote:

Lol tildes. Just making sure that I was not confused as to the purpose of Goonswarm. That other person sounded like he needed a good talking to though, the one too afraid to post with his main.

"Post with your main" is an awful gimmick. What, are you going to give the guy a high-security war if he says something? Roll

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#62 - 2011-11-17 22:47:11 UTC
I prefer to snipe with my main. :pirate:

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Manar Detri
#63 - 2011-11-18 02:23:17 UTC
I wanna be an internetz lawyer too so i'll have a go!

So first off, lets disect a bit, on the internet you are always a person that is affected by the laws of the country the person in this case doing the scam is in and on the other hand the persons country that is getting scammed. The eve eula that protects scamming inside eve has no effect on this ofcourse, a contract created online is always a contract in the real world always, and abides the laws unless there are sub contracts (like the eula) affecting it. So the scam on the internet or letsay contract is affected by the laws in the country the dude who put it up is in and the laws who fell for it.

While the real scam might happen in eve and is sanctioned by the eula, the eula doesn't effect the side outside of eve eule, which ofcourse is teh internetz.

So basicly by saying on the website that you will give the money back in 30 days, you are creating a contract with the scammee (laws in different countries might have effects on the legalitys) that you will be giving the deposit back, the fact that the deposit is given in eve online and under it's eula has no effects on the scammers legal bindage on successfully complishing the contract. If he fails to do it, he fails the contract and the scammee is in the position to call out "real world scam". Especially in this case as it is well organized scamming, which usually falls into criminal prosecution label depending on the coutnrys laws ofcourse.

So to sum it up, if you do a scam outside of eve that happens to involve eve it is still an illegal scam as the eula does not protect you when scamming outside of eve even though the scam effects virtual assets owned by ccp that the accoutn holders have bought rights to use and use under its eula.


Same thing the otherway around, you can sell an eve accoutn for real money legally but ccp has the right by eula to ban such accounts.

If this made sense to anyone, i have succeeded in training "middle of night internetz lawyering lvl 5".
Z'Pax
Lamorei Prosapia Vexillum
#64 - 2011-11-18 02:34:27 UTC
I wanna be an interwebz looser too.. oh wait lawyer...

Is the website perhaps a third party piece of software used to gain an in game advantage.....

Screw the RL laws, may be merit in that argument though as its eula covered.

Faceless Mook Level 4 achieved...
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2011-11-18 02:34:51 UTC
Manar Detri wrote:
I wanna be an internetz lawyer too so i'll have a go!

So first off, lets disect a bit, on the internet you are always a person that is affected by the laws of the country the person in this case doing the scam is in and on the other hand the persons country that is getting scammed. The eve eula that protects scamming inside eve has no effect on this ofcourse, a contract created online is always a contract in the real world always, and abides the laws unless there are sub contracts (like the eula) affecting it. So the scam on the internet or letsay contract is affected by the laws in the country the dude who put it up is in and the laws who fell for it.

While the real scam might happen in eve and is sanctioned by the eula, the eula doesn't effect the side outside of eve eule, which ofcourse is teh internetz.

So basicly by saying on the website that you will give the money back in 30 days, you are creating a contract with the scammee (laws in different countries might have effects on the legalitys) that you will be giving the deposit back, the fact that the deposit is given in eve online and under it's eula has no effects on the scammers legal bindage on successfully complishing the contract. If he fails to do it, he fails the contract and the scammee is in the position to call out "real world scam". Especially in this case as it is well organized scamming, which usually falls into criminal prosecution label depending on the coutnrys laws ofcourse.

So to sum it up, if you do a scam outside of eve that happens to involve eve it is still an illegal scam as the eula does not protect you when scamming outside of eve even though the scam effects virtual assets owned by ccp that the accoutn holders have bought rights to use and use under its eula.


Same thing the otherway around, you can sell an eve accoutn for real money legally but ccp has the right by eula to ban such accounts.

If this made sense to anyone, i have succeeded in training "middle of night internetz lawyering lvl 5".


So if I scam someone in Monopoly I can drag their ass to real court?

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Virajar
Doomheim
#66 - 2011-11-18 02:36:58 UTC
Bring back Sesfan Qu'lah
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2011-11-18 04:41:11 UTC
CCP owns everything in Eve.

You cannot actually "steal" or "have stolen" that which CCP unequivocally owns.

/thread
Crias Taylor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2011-11-18 06:09:06 UTC
CCP will never own my posting. It's a national treasure.
Pelador Rova
No Luck Corp
Kenshin Shogunate.
#69 - 2011-11-18 06:20:15 UTC
Crias Taylor wrote:
CCP will never own my posting. It's a national treasure.


Pity it's an international player base then isn't it? ;)
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2011-11-18 08:13:30 UTC
Manar Detri wrote:
So basicly by saying on the website that you will give the money back in 30 days, you are creating a contract with the scammee (laws in different countries might have effects on the legalitys) that you will be giving the deposit back, the fact that the deposit is given in eve online and under it's eula has no effects on the scammers legal bindage on successfully complishing the contract. If he fails to do it, he fails the contract and the scammee is in the position to call out "real world scam". Especially in this case as it is well organized scamming, which usually falls into criminal prosecution label depending on the coutnrys laws ofcourse.

If you want to test this theory of yours, why don't you let me "recruit" you and we'll see how far up the legal tree you get before you're laughed out of court?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Killstealing
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2011-11-18 08:21:35 UTC
Hero Tackler wrote:
DrunkenNinja wrote:
I knew Goons scammed people... but this is something else XD
www.goonfleet.net
In the recruitment channel, type something like "Australian active pilot looking for pvp corp!" (etc) and you may well be approached by a Goon.... who will give you this link :P.
After looking at your API key he will determine a security deposit that is "fair" (for me it was 30 mil, about a third of what I had in my wallet at the time) and give you a sponsorship key.
You heard me, a sponsorship key. Goonfleet actually endorse this behaviour to the point that they made a phony website for more efficient scamming. GG WP.

Wait, 30 mil, you ask? Why would Goons talk to you for an extended period of time just to get 30 mil?

It seems not only do Goons conduct the big, well known "500 mil security deposit, we promise we'll give it right back!" scams, they also enjoy targeting noobs P. I was lucky I only lost 30 mil.


This may seem obvious to some, but don't give ISK to join Goonswarm (or any other corp really), no matter how nice they seem or how legit their websites look =)


Scamming people in game, ok fine because internet spaceships are serious business right? But using an autonomous website out of game to scam people for whatever, there may be real world legal issues here. I shall investigate and see if we can bring a class-action lawsuit against the Goonswarm Federation and CCP for facilitating this real world scam through their ingame channels.

Progress- Here we go, looks like it's an FBI issue http://www.ic3.gov/crimeschemes.aspx

Looks like there's some real world implications here since isk has an actual dollar value by virtue of PLEX, I think CCP should promptly disband Goonswarm and ban whoever approved this to protect themselves from any liability. At least you can report the website and Alexander Gianturco, who presents himself as the leader of Goonfleet/ Goonswarm http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-09-09-eurogamer-interviews-the-eve-council-chairman-interview to the FBI (internet crimes division) and the website scam will be investigated/ shutdown if they promise things and do not deliver on services/ goods (scam).

so is this metatrolling or what
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#72 - 2011-11-18 10:52:47 UTC
Manar Detri wrote:
So basicly by saying on the website that you will give the money back in 30 days, you are creating a contract with the scammee


Nope. I just lie to someone on the internet.

No signature from me => No contract

No signature from you => No contract

There is no real world names on the page. It's not a company, it's not real life money.

There is no legal contract right there.

If you want examples :

Emails sent to a court have no valid and legal weight because of the fact that on the internet, you can fake your identity very easily (And no-one can prove who you really are, if you're doing it right).

You have to send a letter (Idk how does US postal services works, but here in my country you can send a special letter, with which you can ask the postman to ask for a signature if the receiving guy wants to get his letter) to the court, with your signature. Or a fax. Everything else will result in your letter/contract/whatever being nil and invalid.
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#73 - 2011-11-18 11:46:02 UTC
SMT008 wrote:

You have to send a letter (Idk how does US postal services works, but here in my country you can send a special letter, with which you can ask the postman to ask for a signature if the receiving guy wants to get his letter) to the court, with your signature. Or a fax. Everything else will result in your letter/contract/whatever being nil and invalid.

This is called certified mail in the United States.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Jacada Ansari
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#74 - 2011-11-18 13:45:31 UTC
But none of the above applies anyway because the website is not a fake. It's genuine and as I said earlier it's what I used to join Goonswarm. The op is nothing more than a liar and a scoundrel!
Atrum Veneficus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#75 - 2011-11-18 14:28:00 UTC
Elise DarkStar wrote:
CCP owns everything in Eve.

You cannot actually "steal" or "have stolen" that which CCP unequivocally owns.

/thread











I'm just going to quote Elise here who makes the point that completely shuts down all of your poorly written arguments. You don't actually own anything associated with your Eve account, so you can't sue another player for theft of an asset you don't own.
Crias Taylor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2011-11-18 15:16:24 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
SMT008 wrote:

You have to send a letter (Idk how does US postal services works, but here in my country you can send a special letter, with which you can ask the postman to ask for a signature if the receiving guy wants to get his letter) to the court, with your signature. Or a fax. Everything else will result in your letter/contract/whatever being nil and invalid.

This is called certified mail in the United States.


That is just to prove you mailed with extra confidence not proof of receipt. For most cases a US postmark is good enough. You use certified mail to get a record you can keep. 
Joshke
Red's Swashbucklers Corp
U N K N O W N
#77 - 2011-11-18 16:14:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Joshke
If i were a lawyer, I'd definitely use Eve scamming - it is maybe the best and easiest after making money on people who used torrents (edit: and thought that it is legal).
BTW, even a verbal agreement is a contract, no matter were there "real names" and signatures.
Dervinus
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#78 - 2011-11-18 16:34:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Dervinus
Oh damn, this guy exposed us recruitment scammers. I am sure now that as a result of this exposure, noone will ever fall for a phony website recruitment scam ever again

Well played good sir, well played.

o7 toonies
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#79 - 2011-11-18 22:59:14 UTC
Joshke wrote:

BTW, even a verbal agreement is a contract, no matter were there "real names" and signatures.


Then how can you prove anything ?

If I tell you some crap about how I'll give you money if you do something for me, but then I don't hand over the money. What are you going to do ?

"He said that and I want him to give me 5k $ !"

How can you prove that I said anything ? And just imagine how easy it is to exploit ?

"Hey Mr Judge/lawyer, this guy told me he would give me money if I did what he asked !"

Here's what he is going to answer :

"Show me both your and his signatures on the contract that specifies the terms of the contract"

AND, who gives a fsck about you getting scammed of 30M (Which is about 1.12€, if you set the plex price at 400M, and if you could SELL ISK to get real money) in a videogame (that revolves around scamming, stealing and doing mean things to peoples). Seriously Roll
Nalia White
Tencus
#80 - 2011-11-19 02:08:28 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
Joshke wrote:

BTW, even a verbal agreement is a contract, no matter were there "real names" and signatures.


Then how can you prove anything ?

If I tell you some crap about how I'll give you money if you do something for me, but then I don't hand over the money. What are you going to do ?

"He said that and I want him to give me 5k $ !"

How can you prove that I said anything ? And just imagine how easy it is to exploit ?

"Hey Mr Judge/lawyer, this guy told me he would give me money if I did what he asked !"

Here's what he is going to answer :

"Show me both your and his signatures on the contract that specifies the terms of the contract"

AND, who gives a fsck about you getting scammed of 30M (Which is about 1.12€, if you set the plex price at 400M, and if you could SELL ISK to get real money) in a videogame (that revolves around scamming, stealing and doing mean things to peoples). Seriously Roll


in civilized countrys it would depend on the matter. if let's say i give you my used car i want to sell to try it out and you never give it back or pay you will have to face consequences before the court even if you say "He just donated me the car". There is no written contract or proof but it would be statement vs statement and the court would go for the more believable statement...

same as all the "He raped me 5 years ago" - "No, i surely did not" storys. There surely was no written contract :P and no more hard proof due to the 5 years... but the court has still to decide.

A verbal contract is a valid contract.

Syndicate - K5-JRD

Home to few, graveyard for many

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