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[NEWS] “Operation Highlander” documents released, implicate Federation in widespread spying
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Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#161 - 2013-10-28 23:40:14 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:

Not at all, it needed to never even go that far, the blockades, the ethnic cleansing ground side, all of it, could have all been avoided long, long before. The other member states of the Federation could have been compensated financially for the Caldari deception, before they seceeded peacefully. No loss of life or home and no prolonged conflict that has long lost a great deal of it's meaning and mostly exists to fund the arms dealers.


That could of been negotiated if we decided not to act like idiots and deliver the first blow.


Define first blow, I'd rather avoid the whole "Chicken and the Egg" discussion here, it's been done to death, but where in history do you go through the timeline and say "That's the first step of it all going wrong."


Condemning an entire civilization over the actions of a few terrorist and bombing their home worldsounds like the first part of a clusterfuck to me.


It was more than Nouvelle Rouvenour though, prior to that the Caldari army was taking direct military action against Gallente settlements, levelling them to the ground in an act of nothing more than ethnic cleansing.

The condemnation of an entire race was one of the steps (and certainly one of the larger) where things went wrong, but it wasn't the first, not even the first shot fired. That doesn't justify it, not at all, not now and not ever, but it is still unfair regardless to say it was the first blow.


You do realize that Gallente dissidents were also doing the exact same thing to the Caldari at the exact same time right? We were hardly defending poor innocent Gallenteans being bullied by meanie Caldari when the bombardment started.

The bombardment was the first official act of war, as it was directly ordered by the Federal government. Caldari attacks on Gallente settlements were done in response to Gallente attacks on Caldari settlements, and vice versa.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#162 - 2013-10-28 23:56:22 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:


You do realize that Gallente dissidents were also doing the exact same thing to the Caldari at the exact same time right? We were hardly defending poor innocent Gallenteans being bullied by meanie Caldari when the bombardment started.

The bombardment was the first official act of war, as it was directly ordered by the Federal government. Caldari attacks on Gallente settlements were done in response to Gallente attacks on Caldari settlements, and vice versa.



I think you have your chronology confused.

Sectarian violence against ethnic Gallente lead to a militia responce to defend them, this lead to the Caldari army bombarding villages and towns, while the militia enacted guerilla warfare against the Caldari military, in a quite barbaric matter.

The Caldari were the first to fire on the civilian populace, and the ever growing death toll was more Gallente than Caldari.

Nouvelle Rouvenour was the merely the final straw in an escalating conflict where people were already killing each other, whether it was military strikes against civilians, or paramilitary assaults against the State's army. The violence had forced the Gallente citizens into the underwater cities, when they were struck by radicals, it lead to the worst in a chain of already rather long bad decisions.

And contrary to your argument, the UNATS demanded military action long before Nouvelle to go in and protect the Gallente citizens on the planet. By the time the bombardments started they'd come to the twisted logic that their options were kill or be killed. Again, wrong call, but by no means the first one in any sense.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#163 - 2013-10-29 00:01:35 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:

Because you, a Provist


Now, on the Intaki history stuff, I'll bow to your greater knowledge. You're Intaki and it's your history, you likely know it better than I do.

On the matter of calling me a Provist, I'm going to assume that it's simple jaijii ignorance. I'm not a Provist. I've never been a Provist. I was active in fighting against the Provist and the Templis Dragonaur. I supported the CEP against Heth in every major engagement fought in his ouster, bar one, where I got sidelined into a peripheral skirmish.

So that one you get for free, Andreus. But please don't call me a Provist again.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#164 - 2013-10-29 00:03:46 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:

Nouvelle Rouvenour was the merely the final straw in an escalating conflict where people were already killing each other, whether it was military strikes against civilians, or paramilitary assaults against the State's army. The violence had forced the Gallente citizens into the underwater cities, when they were struck by radicals, it lead to the worst in a chain of already rather long bad decisions.


With Nouvelle Rouvenor it's a serious competition to decide whether it was more a tragedy than an outrage or vice versa. Certainly everything that came after it was a tragedy.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#165 - 2013-10-29 00:04:01 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:

Because you, a Provist


Now, on the Intaki history stuff, I'll bow to your greater knowledge. You're Intaki and it's your history, you likely know it better than I do.

On the matter of calling me a Provist, I'm going to assume that it's simple jaijii ignorance. I'm not a Provist. I've never been a Provist. I was active in fighting against the Provist and the Templis Dragonaur. I supported the CEP against Heth in every major engagement fought in his ouster, bar one, where I got sidelined into a peripheral skirmish.

So that one you get for free, Andreus. But please don't call me a Provist again.


Funny, I thought he was replying to TomHorn.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#166 - 2013-10-29 00:08:24 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
On the matter of calling me a Provist

Everything you just wrote would be relevant if I had called you a Provist. Everything you just wrote is not relevant because you didn't check who my post was addressed to and what post it was quoting before you wrote a response.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#167 - 2013-10-29 00:12:26 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:

Nouvelle Rouvenour was the merely the final straw in an escalating conflict where people were already killing each other, whether it was military strikes against civilians, or paramilitary assaults against the State's army. The violence had forced the Gallente citizens into the underwater cities, when they were struck by radicals, it lead to the worst in a chain of already rather long bad decisions.


With Nouvelle Rouvenor it's a serious competition to decide whether it was more a tragedy than an outrage or vice versa. Certainly everything that came after it was a tragedy.


Tragedy is something unfortunate that happens by circumstance and bad luck.

The frothing at the mouth, violent frenzy that had been whipped up in the Federation was certainly outrage, the only other time in history I've seen it's like, they burned a man from within in public.

It's when the Federation is the furthest from its principles, the core ideals it was founded on, when it acts like this. It's also its most unstable, and most dangerous. 200 years ago it resulted in attempted genocide and only ended when the masses were delivered a shock to the system.

200 years later that frenzy was whipped up and allowed the creation of the most underhanded, morally bankrupt and limitless policing and intelligence network, lead by a man who has no restraints in his desire to win. To make things even worse for us, he's paired up with a criminal posing as a President, who gets rich by supplying the very arms and armanents possible to prolong the war he has no intention of ending.

I only fear what will happen to cause the Citizenship of the Federation to see sense this time, I fear more that they never will.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#168 - 2013-10-29 00:44:38 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:

I think you have your chronology confused.

Sectarian violence against ethnic Gallente lead to a militia responce to defend them, this lead to the Caldari army bombarding villages and towns, while the militia enacted guerilla warfare against the Caldari military, in a quite barbaric matter.

The Caldari were the first to fire on the civilian populace, and the ever growing death toll was more Gallente than Caldari.

Nouvelle Rouvenour was the merely the final straw in an escalating conflict where people were already killing each other, whether it was military strikes against civilians, or paramilitary assaults against the State's army. The violence had forced the Gallente citizens into the underwater cities, when they were struck by radicals, it lead to the worst in a chain of already rather long bad decisions.

And contrary to your argument, the UNATS demanded military action long before Nouvelle to go in and protect the Gallente citizens on the planet. By the time the bombardments started they'd come to the twisted logic that their options were kill or be killed. Again, wrong call, but by no means the first one in any sense.


Ahh a typical rookie historian mistake, "The order it was written is the order things happened!" you forget that all of those events parallel with each other. Violence was occurring between both groups at the same time. Keep in mind that the whole build up to the war happened in under a month. If things happened in the order you describe them, everyone would be running around so fast their hearts would give out.

And the underwater cities were already inhabited by then. It's fairly difficult to build a/mass immigrate to an underwater city in under a month.

And yes, the U-Nats were calling for war before Nouvelle Rounevour, but they didn't have their call answered until then.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#169 - 2013-10-29 00:53:53 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:


Ahh a typical rookie historian mistake, "The order it was written is the order things happened!" you forget that all of those events parallel with each other.


That's entirely impossible, even if you ignore the chronology in which the article was written, the wording explains how one event lead to another, and then lead to another.

Quote:
Violence was occurring between both groups at the same time. Keep in mind that the whole build up to the war happened in under a month. If things happened in the order you describe them, everyone would be running around so fast their hearts would give out.


Eventually yes people were fighting each other, and yes it escalated in a short space of time, 2-3 months, a bit longer than you suggested, and while things escalated quickly, they certainly didn't do so at an unreaslistic pace.

Quote:
And the underwater cities were already inhabited by then. It's fairly difficult to build a/mass immigrate to an underwater city in under a month.


Build no, flee from the surface to crowd and over populate already existing ones? Who can't relocate across a planet in a month or two when their home is being shelled.



But again, the article is quite clear in this chicken and egg scenario, and it's not even based on the order in which it's written, the first shots were fired are made clear in the language used. "Beginning in, X did this against Y. In responce to this Y did Z. This caused the situation to escalate."

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#170 - 2013-10-29 01:01:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Makkal Hanaya
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
I doubt very much that the Ni-Kunni would have developed into a great nation if they'd been set down on Athra.

Why not? After all, the Athrans did.

Are you perhaps spuriously implying Athrans have some sort of innate genetic or intellectual superiority?

If I were going to call us superior, I'd say we were spiritually superior.

I doubt very much that if I handed you a 100-sided die, you'd land a 100 on your first roll. That said, it helps if God is on your side.

Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Makkal's one of these neo-Amarrian charlatans like Baracca, trying to put a kinder, gentler face on the Amarrian religion without actually changing any of the things that put "having a kinder, gentler face" so high on the list of requirements for modern proselytisation in the first place.


Translation: I have no idea what Makkal's religious, political, or social viewpoints are. Watch as I grasp at this lovely pile of straws.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#171 - 2013-10-29 01:09:51 UTC
My information on your viewpoints was admittedly slightly limited. Fortunately, you've been obliging enough to fill in the few remaining gaps in my knowledge with the arrogant self-satisfaction I've come to expect from Amarrians of a religious bent. I already knew that you think that your birthright gives you an inherent superiority of some description - I was merely in the dark as to what precisely you believed its nature was.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#172 - 2013-10-29 01:29:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Makkal Hanaya
Having Andreus suggest I'm too smug feels like Captain Blake telling me I'm too serious and need to live a little.

Forgive me, Pilot Ixiris, next time I'll be sure to toss myself at your feet and beg for forgiveness before pointing out you're talking out of your rear.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#173 - 2013-10-29 01:31:34 UTC
If you wish to find a solution or common ground, hyperbole and sarcasm are your enemies.

If you wish to harden your hearts, passion and abruptness are your friends.

Perhaps we would all be well-suited if we argued the positions opposite to our beliefs for awhile, to see the shape that our opponents' minds take.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#174 - 2013-10-29 01:35:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Caellach Marellus wrote:

That's entirely impossible, even if you ignore the chronology in which the article was written, the wording explains how one event lead to another, and then lead to another.


Overall? Yes. In regards to various atrocities? No. The Gallenteans formed militias in response to the violence yes, but that violence weren't along the lines of say, a massacre or something. More like riots and beatings. The militias and the Caldari Army then began to clash and both pillage and plunder.

Caellach Marellus wrote:
Eventually yes people were fighting each other, and yes it escalated in a short space of time, 2-3 months, a bit longer than you suggested, and while things escalated quickly, they certainly didn't do so at an unreaslistic pace.


The first cases of violence and the forming of Gallente militias started at the beginning of December, Nouvelle Rounevuor happened at the beginning of January. The U-Nats took control a week or two later. So the escalation took place over a month and a half. No more than two months.

Caellach Marellus wrote:
Who can't relocate across a planet in a month or two when their home is being shelled.


Moving across the planet when people are trying to kill you is very difficult, let alone within a month with all high-speed transportation either being destroyed or controlled by the people trying to kill you.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#175 - 2013-10-29 01:42:38 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
Perhaps we would all be well-suited if we argued the positions opposite to our beliefs for awhile.

Nah, I'm good.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#176 - 2013-10-29 01:43:38 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Scherezad wrote:
There is little profit in this idle vitriol.

Ailer Stane wrote:
​I agree. I have read several past postings that encouraged peace from many of those contending against each other in this discussion. I encourage each participants to consider the cost of idle insult to what I hope is the common cause of all people of good will, peace.​ So I implore you to let the potential future of our two cultures not be decided by the bitterness of our common past.

You are both correct. I have allowed myself to be baited by those of ill intentions, despite my hopes in a greater peace between the Federation and State. I have erred and brought shame, and admit that my contributions to this thread have only gone counter to the aspirations of both Ishukone and myself.

For that, I beg the forgiveness of those present.

I now resign myself from this thread.

Why is it so easy to start screaming and so difficult to stop.

Pride I suppose.

I thank the calmer voices for reminding us there is a quieter more constructive way.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#177 - 2013-10-29 03:08:47 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
On the matter of calling me a Provist

Everything you just wrote would be relevant if I had called you a Provist. Everything you just wrote is not relevant because you didn't check who my post was addressed to and what post it was quoting before you wrote a response.


Fair enough. Never have I been more glad to be irrelevant.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#178 - 2013-10-29 03:19:09 UTC
Quote:
Quote:
Has there ever been any tangible proof, beyond a loud spoken minority, that the Intaki actually want to secede?

No really, this comes up every couple of years


Because they've never asked for one? Because every survey ever conducted - by Federal agencies, by independent organisations, even by the Caldari when they briefly occupied the planet - indicated that the overwhelming majority of Intaki living on Intaki Prime want to stay with the Federation? Because the overwhelming majority of the Intaki ethnicity doesn't even live on Intaki anymore? Because billions of non-Intaki Federal citizens live and work on planets that would be inside a notional "independent Intaki nation?"


There are calls for Intaki to secede, there are Intaki secession groups and organisations. The Intaki are generally not confrontational or outspoken. They know the history of the Caldari what happened when we seceded and the Intaki 5000 when they protested.

Solve the Intaki problem once and for all and let them have a referendum to stay in or out of the Federation. Give them the option every 4 years to decided wether or not they want another referendum or not if they decide to stay in. What is wrong with that Andreus & Marellus, that is democracy. You cant have any objections to a referendum.

Thats ok to Andreus the billions of non-Intaki federal citizens could still live and work there, but they would be working and living within a independent Intaki nation.

Quote:
Speaking of sensationalist crap, I hear the FIO apparently lost a document that may well just be a false flag to instill paranoia within the State. Oh hey, wait, this was the thread for discussing that.


Im sure the FIO are capable of false flags, but the people in the senate are not actors. The raids on the Scope these are not acts. Your conspiracy theory here Marellus is just to far fetched. This is genuine concern for lost confidential document. Strapon your tinfoil helmet protect yourself Marellus.

Quote:
my people - in the Federation


Your people , you dont act like they are your people. You act like a true Gallente.

Long live a free Intaki
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#179 - 2013-10-29 03:32:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
If the Intaki really wanted to secede, they would of done it a loooooong time ago. There have been periods in history where they could of done it without firing a single shot. It would be as easy as walking out the door.

The Intaki are loyal members of the Federation, and there is nothing realistic the State or ironically, the Federation, can do that will change that.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#180 - 2013-10-29 04:12:01 UTC
My, noses certainly got bent out of joint when I pointed out a bit of simple history. You built in secret a network of stargates and bases to project your power and influence and to expand your potential markets without sharing the profits with your supposed partners.

Name call, berate and insult me all you like, but the history is what it is. I didn't make it either; you Caldari did.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.