Intergalactic Summit

Stubborn denials are your forte, at least if your recent spate of postings is anything to go by. When you actually want to discuss what is being said, and not a self structured argument designed for you to win, look me up.

I'm not beyond having a debate, but if we're going to have it, have it with the words actually being said, not some straw man argument you'd rather face.

Marellus;

I haven't been following all of this exchange, because frankly I doubt we can find new arguments after centuries.

My issue is this: whatever else follows, you argue that what is essentially a case of tax evasion (which I do not dispute) is grounds for blockade and bombardment.

Surely the war could have been avoided; but the Federation's democracy becomes a tyranny of the Gallente majority, attempting to subject minorities to cultural annihilation. Surely you must realize that those who would be forced to subject themselves to Federation 'uplift' may regard Federation mandates as onerous and burdensome in the least. This is why the Caldari seceded, why so many Intaki joined the Legion or formed the Syndicate, and why Matari immigrants find themselves discriminated against in what is supposedly the most free and open society in New Eden -- while Gallente shrug and say they don't see any problems with the Federation's institutions.

You must notice a pattern here.

The Gallente Federation -- for all it claims to be inclusive -- is ultimately the Gallente Federation.

What about the Intaki question. When will the Intaki be allowed to secession from the Federation and become independent nation. They have their own culture, their own identity and most of all they want to be independent. You believe in the great Federation democracy let the Intaki have a referendum on wether they want to stay in or out of the Federation.

Unfortunately they will find out you wont let them become independent, and the only way they will achieve this is by an armed struggle. The same way the Caldari achieved this.

I never said it was an appropriate measure of responce, for what was tax evasion, but it was the reason things happened as they did. Pointing out a cause of events historically doesn't mean you agree with the people who did them.

Cultural annihilation is a rather questionable phrase, the Federation is notoriously a melting pot of different races and cultures, it's just none of them are given special treatment. It would have to be a pretty barbaric practice, ritual sacrifice is a non specific example that springs to mind, to be fully stamped out. There are elements within the Federation that hold their opinions to the cultural practices of others, but they aren't prohibited, a specific example there would be the Matari Voluval ceremony, while to the distaste of some, it's not outlawed or condemned within the Federation.

So many Intaki would be the 5,000 that were exiled to form the Syndicate? That's hardly many when you consider an entire race, the numbers grew over time with people that for some reason or other couldn't migrate to the Federation found their way there, unless you've something to refute that?


The Matari, racism, discrimination and such is being well discussed in another topic here, if you wish to continue that train of discussion I suggest you do so there. Not avoiding the discussion but let's not have it be the topic of more threads than is necessary.

Also I think you'll find that the Jin Mei culture is well and strong, the plans to abolish the Caste system were long cancelled, and they have the right, as a member state, to protect their identity against Federal policy changes, the Intaki Ida faith is hardly a footnote in history, their soft spoken and diplomatic way has made it's own imprint on the Federation and the Mannar have gone as far as to imprint themselves on Federal culture, their influence is well seen in the Hawk bloc of Federal politics.

It may well say the Gallente Federation on the label, but you're fooling yourself if you think it's the only culture that exists, or even the only culture to imprint itself on the Federation as a whole.

Has there ever been any tangible proof, beyond a loud spoken minority, that the Intaki actually want to secede?

No really, this comes up every couple of years and to this day no one has produced a single article to support this claim, whereas, and I can't remember if it was Andreus or Seriphyn, made a rather excellent post a couple of years back with source material where the majority of Intaki considered themselves to be Federal citizens.


Yes there is a small group who wish for an independant Intaki, but vocal minorities against the status quo are something you notice, you don't get news reports of "Breaking news: Everything is fine, the majority are rather content with their lives and political status and see no need for a change."

Which is why the recent sensationalist crap has done so well, because people cling to these minority stories and explode them thinking it's a fair representation of the masses.


Speaking of sensationalist crap, I hear the FIO apparently lost a document that may well just be a false flag to instill paranoia within the State. Oh hey, wait, this was the thread for discussing that.

So, what you're essentially saying to Priano-haani is that orbital blockade and bombardment wasn't a proper reaction to tax evasion?

Meanwhile to me you're saying that orbital blockade, bombardment, theft of homeworld, two hundred years of mid to low intensity warfare, invasion of our colonies in Black Rise, destruction of the Malkalen station and assassination of Otro Gariushi? That's a proper reaction to tax evasion.

How much money are we even talking about here? It must be a lot for the largest economy in New Eden to be so bent on chasing the money down. Maybe we ought to just pay you?

Then again I was once told that 'No' is a very difficult word for two types of people to hear, but also that learning to hear and accept it was a key step on their path to self development. Those two people are Fathers and Tyrants and, really, as a Tubeborn I have no need of either.

Yes. Yes. I'm sure THIS is a strawman argument as well. I'm pretty sure that everything looks like a strawman argument to someone who can't see, can't hear and won't entertain anybody else's opinion on something. Just remember, as disagreeable as you find me, as invalid as you find my arguments - I'm fighting for the independence and survival of my people from a foe who has tried to destroy them. You're fighting because you think we owe you money.

I believe that both sides handled it wrong, at several stages, I also believe that the whole thing should have been nipped in at the bud when the colonies were exposed and the Caldari back paid the profits that should have been shared across the Federation in that time, the same way they were taking advantage of the shared wealth of everyone else's colonies.


Ultimately I suppose you could say I'm saying the Caldari took the wrong first step, they weren't the only ones to make poor choices (a phrase extremely lightly used considering the situation) that escalated into an entirely regrettable series of points in history over the last two hundred years.




No. I'm not even going to justify this stupid strawman with an explanation. Quit inventing an argument that doesn't exist.



I don't think you actually know what a strawman is, it's when you're claiming my position is something different to what I've myself stated, thus you argue against an imaginary platform that doesn't actually exist.

The State has independance, it thrives, it's now locked in a war where it invades as often as it is invaded, and even attempts to lay claim to the soverign homeworld of a people, something that the State was up in arms and offended about someone else doing for the last 200 years. Again, why are you fighting?


And I'm not fighting, I refuse to take a side in the CEPWA conflict, I'd rather focus on those who don't care if you're Federal, Caldari, Matari or Amarrian, they'll kill or enslave you regardless.

Define first blow, I'd rather avoid the whole "Chicken and the Egg" discussion here, it's been done to death, but where in history do you go through the timeline and say "That's the first step of it all going wrong."

Condemning an entire civilization over the actions of a few terrorist and bombing their homeworld sounds like the first part of a clusterfuck to me.

Because they've never asked for one? Because every survey ever conducted - by Federal agencies, by independent organisations, even by the Caldari when they briefly occupied the planet - indicated that the overwhelming majority of Intaki living on Intaki Prime want to stay with the Federation? Because the overwhelming majority of the Intaki ethnicity doesn't even live on Intaki anymore? Because billions of non-Intaki Federal citizens live and work on planets that would be inside a notional "independent Intaki nation?"

Because you, a Provist, who avariciously auctioned our system and our planet and our people and our future like they were cattle, as if any of those were yours to sell, as if auctioning the homeworld of another culture wasn't the most hypocritical thing you could possibly imagine, don't speak for our people, and never will?

There are a few people who could with some justice question the place of the Intaki - my people - in the Federation. Provist gandī su'ara are not included among them.


One wonders what the Provists would have done if suddenly the Achur had become dissatisfied with their lot and sought independence for the Saisio system.