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'winning'

Author
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#101 - 2011-11-17 17:07:15 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Silent Lamb wrote:
why shouldn't age give anyone any advantage whatsoever?
Classic onus probandi fallacy.
Because there is no reason for age to give anyone any advantage whatsoever.
Quote:
if people don't get an advantage for training for years, what's the point?
To have fun. To get better. To try another tactic to beat the other guy. …just off the top of my head.
Quote:
and on your logic, why not take out every single type of ship, replace them with a single t1 tier 1 frigate that everyone flies and pilots with the exact same modules and the exact same bonuses with no skills required to train.
Yeah, no. That's not my logic. So we'll add a straw man fallacy to the list as well. None of that has anything to do with age. I'm asking why being older should make a difference.


I will answer the last question.

Being older, if you actually used the time by learning from yours and other mistakes makes the difference because you know different tactics and strategies, you can easily surpass "noob" player on any field since you know and they are young and have to learn.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#102 - 2011-11-17 17:16:04 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
I will answer the last question.

Being older, if you actually used the time by learning from yours and other mistakes makes the difference because you know different tactics and strategies, you can easily surpass "noob" player on any field since you know and they are young and have to learn.

…which has to do with experience and/or smarts (or at least ability to learn). None of it is in the mechanics (or about age, strictly speaking), which is the thing the OP seems to want to have on his side.
Apollo Gabriel
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#103 - 2011-11-17 18:36:59 UTC
So let me get this straight ...

New players complain they will NEVER catch up to older players ...

and you are saying "I'll never be as far ahead as I want to be!"

omfg ...

Get a hex editor and get to work on hacking a single player game, there you can be in god mode forever.
Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.   Peace out Zulu! Hope you land well!
Silent Lamb
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#104 - 2011-11-18 00:37:01 UTC
Apollo Gabriel wrote:
So let me get this straight ...

New players complain they will NEVER catch up to older players ...

and you are saying "I'll never be as far ahead as I want to be!"

omfg ...

Get a hex editor and get to work on hacking a single player game, there you can be in god mode forever.


funny thing you bring this up... CCP is nerfing the older players to the point of new players not needing to catch up to the older players. part of this is completely removing entire skill branches (the learning skills specifically) while removing other valid skills (like in the social skill branch) and then giving newer players ships that take vastly less time to train for are on par with the older players' ships that took 1 year+ to train. if you had read my posts and are capable of adding 1 and 1 to get 2 you'd see I have already brought up your subject in different ways.

Since EVE is supposed to be time based, not action based, one would only hope those who have spent longer times in EVE would naturally be more powerful/effective than those who have spent a year in EVE. I mean... why spend years playing EVE if it doesn't give you an advantage when the mechanics that get you skills were made to give older players an advantage?

again, I've already stated that I've unsubbed all my accounts (7). I don't see me coming back since EVE caters to the instant gratification mentality.

oh, btw, the instant gratification mentality is the WoW mentality... effectively proving that EVE is WoWifying. if you refuse to acknowledge this then congratulations, you don't have a sense of accomplishment in the things you set out to do 1 or more years in advance... wait... you probably are then incapable of doing that in RL since you can't do it in a game. n/m

Where are they taking the hobbits?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=VznlDlNPw4Q

Apollo Gabriel
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#105 - 2011-11-18 00:44:01 UTC
Silent Lamb wrote:
Apollo Gabriel wrote:
So let me get this straight ...

New players complain they will NEVER catch up to older players ...

and you are saying "I'll never be as far ahead as I want to be!"

omfg ...

Get a hex editor and get to work on hacking a single player game, there you can be in god mode forever.


funny thing you bring this up... CCP is nerfing the older players to the point of new players not needing to catch up to the older players. part of this is completely removing entire skill branches (the learning skills specifically) while removing other valid skills (like in the social skill branch) and then giving newer players ships that take vastly less time to train for are on par with the older players' ships that took 1 year+ to train. if you had read my posts and are capable of adding 1 and 1 to get 2 you'd see I have already brought up your subject in different ways.

Since EVE is supposed to be time based, not action based, one would only hope those who have spent longer times in EVE would naturally be more powerful/effective than those who have spent a year in EVE. I mean... why spend years playing EVE if it doesn't give you an advantage when the mechanics that get you skills were made to give older players an advantage?

again, I've already stated that I've unsubbed all my accounts (7). I don't see me coming back since EVE caters to the instant gratification mentality.

oh, btw, the instant gratification mentality is the WoW mentality... effectively proving that EVE is WoWifying. if you refuse to acknowledge this then congratulations, you don't have a sense of accomplishment in the things you set out to do 1 or more years in advance... wait... you probably are then incapable of doing that in RL since you can't do it in a game. n/m


I really think you need a break from Eve. Respectfully I disagree with nearly EVERY point you've made here about Eve getting "wowified". I think Learning skills were a neat idea once and have long since become obsolete and a BAD feature. Just because a feature was there for years doesn't mean it was good. The Social skills were really dumb, they weren't thought out, they made little logical sense, CCP cleaned them up. Learning skills similarly were just a bad idea, they seemed good at the time, but hey buddy play eve, a long term game, spend 89 days before you start learning new skills if you really want to catch up!!

As to saying the CCP is giving shortcuts, i don't agree with you at all. I fly command ships and I don't fly T3, why? I don't really want to **** away 1 b isk every time I **** up in pvp. I think you should get evemon, make a BRAND NEW character and train up for a GOOD T3 fit, I think you'll be surprised how long it takes. If you think it is still fast, ask what else you can fly and you'll see not much.

CCP didn't make an 8 year veteran useless, they've always had the model that only so many points could go towards any one ship, that is true for T3 as well, iirc it is 45 days to fly JUST the T3 skills without the cruiser V and all other support skills.

Then if you really are new, you won't actually know how to fly it.

Take some time, check out other games and if you still think eve is too soft, stay away.
Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.   Peace out Zulu! Hope you land well!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#106 - 2011-11-18 00:52:47 UTC
Silent Lamb wrote:
CCP is nerfing the older players to the point of new players not needing to catch up to the older players.
First of all, not really, no.
Secondly, even if they were, so what?

The removal of learning skills improved the game for everyone, in particular for older players who got stuff for free and who could now complement their old characters with special-purpose alts far better than before. The social skills were not removed — they were consolidated, which much the same effect and cost as before, but without the granularity that old players could choose to have (so again, those older players got stuff for free).
Quote:
Since EVE is supposed to be time based
Says who?
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#107 - 2011-11-18 00:58:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Apollo Gabriel wrote:

CCP didn't make an 8 year veteran useless



An eight year veteran character would always have been rather useless in eve. Better to sell the char and invest into a couple of dedicated alts. Depending on use, anything >60-100 mill SP does nothing but increasing med-clone cost.

I sold my main a long time ago - and it wouldn't even be eight years old by now...
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#108 - 2011-11-18 01:13:02 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
Silent Lamb wrote:
CCP is nerfing the older players to the point of new players not needing to catch up to the older players. part of this is completely removing entire skill branches (the learning skills specifically) while removing other valid skills (like in the social skill branch) and then giving newer players ships that take vastly less time to train for are on par with the older players' ships that took 1 year+ to train. if you had read my posts and are capable of adding 1 and 1 to get 2 you'd see I have already brought up your subject in different ways.


Learning skills were basically a pointless prerequisite. CCP removed them because it became standard practice to simply waste the first month of a character's training developing learning skills. They were merely an annoyance when I started the game and I was glad to see them go.

The social skills were related to the needlessly convoluted mission system, and I think CCP did a good job cleaning that up (though The Mittani gave me a good reason to not wholly like the Q20 mission buff)

As for the "easy ships" bit, you seem to be complaining solely about T3s. I agree that CCP needs to buff command ships to make them viable again, but if one class of ship being made less useful is a serious problem to you, I'm pretty sure there won't be any pleasing you any way.

Silent Lamb wrote:
Since EVE is supposed to be time based, not action based

Says who? Eve is all ABOUT action. Skills take time, but EVERYTHING ELSE takes action. The entire Eve universe is driven by the actions of the players. Otherwise it's just "skill training completed" and whoever has the most SP wins. And congratulations, if SP count is your win condition, you've got me beat!

Silent Lamb wrote:
one would only hope those who have spent longer times in EVE would naturally be more powerful/effective than those who have spent a year in EVE.

They are. it's impossible to achieve perfect skills for anything above a frigate in a year. Add months to that in order to be competitive in a battleship. And that's just comparing skill effects, it doesn't take into account the fact that an older player should have deeper pockets and more experience.

Do you seriously want to have EVERY advantage over me, just because I subscribed after you?

Silent Lamb wrote:
I mean... why spend years playing EVE if it doesn't give you an advantage when the mechanics that get you skills were made to give older players an advantage?


Because it's FUN?

Silent Lamb wrote:
oh, btw, the instant gratification mentality is the WoW mentality... effectively proving that EVE is WoWifying. if you refuse to acknowledge this then congratulations, you don't have a sense of accomplishment in the things you set out to do 1 or more years in advance... wait... you probably are then incapable of doing that in RL since you can't do it in a game. n/m


Aaaaand we're back to self-important douchebag mode.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

Apollo Gabriel
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#109 - 2011-11-18 01:25:50 UTC
Silent Lamb wrote:
oh, btw, the instant gratification mentality is the WoW mentality... effectively proving that EVE is WoWifying. if you refuse to acknowledge this then congratulations, you don't have a sense of accomplishment in the things you set out to do 1 or more years in advance... wait... you probably are then incapable of doing that in RL since you can't do it in a game. n/m


You really are a ******* cry baby. You're the kid who gets mad cause his friends wanted to chase girls and stop spending the night talking about D&D. If you'd like to talk sense of accomplishment, I've got a PhD in theoretical physics, I can send you my CV if you wish. That being said, I don't think EVERYONE has to get a PhD in physics to enjoy the field. I know MORE than any of the people I meet outside of my department everyday, and I am fulfilled. I don't knock them into the bushes and yell I RULE YOU SUCK just to show I can.

You need a ******* life man, if 7 years and 7 accounts didn't bring you any fun in EVE, hence WHAT YOU GOT that NO ONE ELSE can get, then you need to find a new game, hell maybe you need to go outside. You really need a perspective NOT your own.

Eve is a game, period.
Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.   Peace out Zulu! Hope you land well!
CATPAIN KIRK
State War Academy
Caldari State
#110 - 2011-11-18 01:33:35 UTC  |  Edited by: CATPAIN KIRK
Apollo Gabriel wrote:

******* I've got a PhD in theoretical physics, I can send you my CV if you wish. That being said, I don't think EVERYONE has to get a PhD in physics to enjoy the field. I know MORE than any of the people I meet outside of my department everyday, and I am fulfilled. I don't knock them into the bushes and yell I RULE YOU SUCK just to show I can.
*******


Wow - your smart!

Can you send me your CV? I want to be smart too!

(I'm a kickbox-ninja-assassin in rl - but not very samrt)
Silent Lamb
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#111 - 2011-11-18 01:34:17 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Silent Lamb wrote:
CCP is nerfing the older players to the point of new players not needing to catch up to the older players. part of this is completely removing entire skill branches (the learning skills specifically) while removing other valid skills (like in the social skill branch) and then giving newer players ships that take vastly less time to train for are on par with the older players' ships that took 1 year+ to train. if you had read my posts and are capable of adding 1 and 1 to get 2 you'd see I have already brought up your subject in different ways.


Learning skills were basically a pointless prerequisite. CCP removed them because it became standard practice to simply waste the first month of a character's training developing learning skills. They were merely an annoyance when I started the game and I was glad to see them go.

The social skills were related to the needlessly convoluted mission system, and I think CCP did a good job cleaning that up (though The Mittani gave me a good reason to not wholly like the Q20 mission buff)

As for the "easy ships" bit, you seem to be complaining solely about T3s. I agree that CCP needs to buff command ships to make them viable again, but if one class of ship being made less useful is a serious problem to you, I'm pretty sure there won't be any pleasing you any way.


Learning skills kept a lot of the WoW player mentality away. it also kept a lot of undesired trash away, which is why a lot of older players left, and continue to leave with said levels of trash coming into a game designed to be an elitist's game. the Q20 thing I am completely against, and did not think to bring that point up. thank you for seeing the problems with the Q20 buff.

as for a solution to my command ship/T3 complaint... how about CCP comes out with a new ship class that would effectively take me at least a year to train for in addition to skills I already have and would be superior to its current counterpart? whether it is a frigate or battleship or t2 dread or t2 carrier... I kinda don't care. just feed me something.... wait... I've gone past that point. I've already unsubscribed, and don't see me ever coming back to EVE.

CCP, the hard core players who have been with you since your first year in existance are almost completely gone... effectively allowing this 'new generation' the ability to take control, which, by the way, they don't. it's all chaos. there is no organization, no method of efficiency, except in high sec war dec'ing corps, which, btw, is where a lot of the remainder of the old players reside. I am leaving EVE, like thousands before me have, because I am fed up with trash moving in and taking over.

Where are they taking the hobbits?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=VznlDlNPw4Q

Mister Crispy
AC Enterprises
#112 - 2011-11-18 01:39:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Mister Crispy
If a normal eve player took a bet to try and post the most "bittervet-esque" he possibly could, it wouldn't be NEAR as bittervet-ish as OP. Congratulations. Literally whining about how there aren't as many unstoppable monopolies, and you can't act like Dr. Braun in Vault 112. I commend you.
Fluffman
Pulling The Plug
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#113 - 2011-11-18 01:44:19 UTC
Maybe like a Commanders Spaceship Book that gives a +2% per level on top of current ship bonuses, the kicker being its a book that would cost a billion and would take 5 days to level 1 etc. and monster pre req skills, like you have to have all classes and leaderships maxed to be eligible. And giving a not so huge bonus may be enough for it not to be an I win skill, and more of a I can win and not need more than t2 mods to keep up with your average Officer fitted ship? Which then as a Vet on the field, if you did decide to field something pricey - A. you would be Prized ship kill. and B. Hard as nails to take down, which would be a nice challenge for an opposing fleet and give some gravity for older players.

By leaving because of being fed up with the "trash" you'd be letting them win. Give it a few months tho, you'll miss the pew pew
Silent Lamb
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#114 - 2011-11-18 01:45:05 UTC
Apollo Gabriel wrote:
You need a ******* life man, if 7 years and 7 accounts didn't bring you any fun in EVE, hence WHAT YOU GOT that NO ONE ELSE can get, then you need to find a new game


I did have fun for the first 4 and a half years of EVE. I struggled to get the control that I did, and it was very challenging. it took me 2 and a half years to get that effective control, and I maintained it effectively for 2 years after getting it. I am not complaining that I do not have it, I am complaining that CCP took the ability to have said control out of the game, and then in the years since has constantly nerfed older players so they don't have the advantage they once had.

as to another's comment about the isk value of tengus vs command ships... I am aware of the price difference. are you aware that there are spoiled rich kids that go to mommy and daddy for money, and then don't have to put forth any effort for said money, spend said money on PLEX's, and then just regularly buy whatever they want because they have a way to legally buy ISK? those kids have no sense of accomplishment. although that is one extreme of what I voice to be a problem, apparently the world has changed too much that I am antiquated with my standards and ethics of working hard, with a strong ethic, and getting rewarded for it. by the way, you're not the only one who plays this game with a PhD. no, I do not have one... I only have a master's degree, but I know of a few with PhD's who play the game, well, used to play the game would be more accurate for about 75% of them.

Apollo, you claim to hold a PhD, and one would think you have a sense of accomplishment... but I don't see you showing that you take hard efforts serious.

Where are they taking the hobbits?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=VznlDlNPw4Q

Silent Lamb
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#115 - 2011-11-18 01:50:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Silent Lamb
Fluffman wrote:
Maybe like a Commanders Spaceship Book that gives a +2% per level on top of current ship bonuses, the kicker being its a book that would cost a billion and would take 5 days to level 1 etc. and monster pre req skills, like you have to have all classes and leaderships maxed to be eligible. And giving a not so huge bonus may be enough for it not to be an I win skill, and more of a I can win and not need more than t2 mods to keep up with your average Officer fitted ship? Which then as a Vet on the field, if you did decide to field something pricey - A. you would be Prized ship kill. and B. Hard as nails to take down, which would be a nice challenge for an opposing fleet and give some gravity for older players.

By leaving because of being fed up with the "trash" you'd be letting them win. Give it a few months tho, you'll miss the pew pew


That is a really awesome idea. I approve of this idea 100%.

EDIT:

you are right, though, I am letting them win. it isn't worth it to keep up the struggle after years of stuff like this not coming about. If I do keep 1 toon in EVE, it will be the high sec war dec toon I have, which is my 2nd oldest toon btw, who does have those skills at 5... which would effectively give me something new to train that I want to train for.

Do you have any other ideas? maybe if enough of them are created it would be possible to stop the exodus of the older players and potentially bring some of them back.

Where are they taking the hobbits?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=VznlDlNPw4Q

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#116 - 2011-11-18 01:53:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Silent Lamb wrote:
a game designed to be an elitist's game.
Says who?

You keep making these kind of dreamed-up statements about what EVE is, was, or will be. Here's some harsh reality for you: your dream never existed.
Quote:
as for a solution to my command ship/T3 complaint...
…how about you look at what skills are actually needed? In essence, all you're doing is exchanging one rank-6 skill for another. Pretty much everything else needs to be the same. Your complaint is based on ignorance. One would have thought that an older player would know better…
Quote:
effectively allowing this 'new generation' the ability to take control, which, by the way, they don't.
Wait, so what's the problem again? That new players can take control? That they can't? That they shouldn't?

Why should older players have any advantage whatsoever?
Silent Lamb
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#117 - 2011-11-18 01:59:09 UTC
Tippia, I find it hilarious how you are taking your current stance in this forum topic yet you voice completely opposite views in many other topics, some of which we have co-opted opinions together supporting each other. some of them with this toon, others with other toons I have posted from. I am going to not respond to your posts, and completely ignore them due to your circular lack of logic in this topic, your refusal to accept that I have made valid points, and then your refusal to make any valid contrary points while keeping with the 'why' mentality, which can ultimately never be swayed in any direction due to the person asking 'why' at every turn and never saying 'oh'.

Where are they taking the hobbits?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=VznlDlNPw4Q

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#118 - 2011-11-18 02:10:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Silent Lamb wrote:
Tippia, I find it hilarious how you are taking your current stance in this forum topic yet you voice completely opposite views in many other topics
Not really, no. My current stance is in line with my stance on other topics. You're just confused about what that stance is…
Quote:
I am going to not respond to your posts
That's your problem, not mine. After all, that just shows you can't think of any way to counter the claims or to explain yourself, neither of which does you any good and only makes you sink deeper into QQ territory.
Quote:
your refusal to accept that I have made valid points
Such as? The points you've made have pretty much all been based on your unfounded and unproven (and even contradictory) assumptions about the game design and on rather erroneous statements about how the game actually works. What I've done is question these assumptions and asked you to explain them, which you've not been able to do, and to explain why your assertions are not true.
Fluffman
Pulling The Plug
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#119 - 2011-11-18 02:27:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Fluffman
Silent Lamb wrote:
Fluffman wrote:
Maybe like a Commanders Spaceship Book that gives a +2% per level on top of current ship bonuses, the kicker being its a book that would cost a billion and would take 5 days to level 1 etc. and monster pre req skills, like you have to have all classes and leaderships maxed to be eligible. And giving a not so huge bonus may be enough for it not to be an I win skill, and more of a I can win and not need more than t2 mods to keep up with your average Officer fitted ship? Which then as a Vet on the field, if you did decide to field something pricey - A. you would be Prized ship kill. and B. Hard as nails to take down, which would be a nice challenge for an opposing fleet and give some gravity for older players.

By leaving because of being fed up with the "trash" you'd be letting them win. Give it a few months tho, you'll miss the pew pew


That is a really awesome idea. I approve of this idea 100%.

EDIT:

you are right, though, I am letting them win. it isn't worth it to keep up the struggle after years of stuff like this not coming about. If I do keep 1 toon in EVE, it will be the high sec war dec toon I have, which is my 2nd oldest toon btw, who does have those skills at 5... which would effectively give me something new to train that I want to train for.

Do you have any other ideas? maybe if enough of them are created it would be possible to stop the exodus of the older players and potentially bring some of them back.


Well.

I hate forums. I wrote you an idea. hit post. it deleted it.

I'm going to bed I'll rewrite it tomorrow.
KrakizBad
Section 8.
#120 - 2011-11-18 02:30:16 UTC
You leaving is not an exodus, even with 7 accounts. Roll

Most of the old bittervets I know (including myself) are decidedly less bitter as we play around on Sisi.