Intergalactic Summit

I am curious to hear more about those two ways out of it that are not about armed conflict.

Do you mean that one is surrendering the planet ? If so, then as Mr Marellus said above, then one of the ways for the Caldari to get out of the deal 200 years ago was to surrender and comply to the law of the charter they signed, before trying to remove themselves from the system.

Why not? After all, the Athrans did.

Are you perhaps spuriously implying Athrans have some sort of innate genetic or intellectual superiority?

Makkal's one of these neo-Amarrian charlatans like Baracca, trying to put a kinder, gentler face on the Amarrian religion without actually changing any of the things that put "having a kinder, gentler face" so high on the list of requirements for modern proselytisation in the first place.

It is a strange day when I find myself agreeing with the Lady of Blades about anything. However, speaking as one of the 'indoctrinated'. I am rather glad we were taken in by the Amarrians. Our homeworld was not capable of sustaining us unless we were assisted and given a leg up by someone and the Amarrians got there first. The Amarrians did not have to provide us aid as they did. They did not have to let the first Ad-Drelana take up the mantle of service in the Navy but they did. They did not have to provide us with the tools we needed to survive on our homeworld, but they did. They did not have to emancipate us, but they did. The Amarrians leashed us, kept us bound until we were ready to take our place among the peoples of the cluster.

The Ni-Kunni have served the Empire proudly for a thousand years. We have sold their goods, we have fought in their wars and we have done mighty deeds that we could not have accomplished if left to our own devices. We stand astride the cluster now, spreading our goods and services to the furthest star under the Imperial banner. What would we have accomplished without the Amarrians and their god exactly? Marooned in the middle of a hostile sea of gold to be crushed by our own homeworld and its climate? We would have clawed our way skywards to be shot out of the sky by Imperial forces. The Caldari had the technology to forge their own way, we did not. So for that I am thankful to the Amarrians that they have uplifted us to the stars and moulded us into an image that is (mostly) respectable.

One of these days I really must starve you, beat you, put a gun to the heads of your family and have you sign a piece of paper giving me your home in perpetuity. Perhaps then you'll understand why a contract signed under duress is not binding.

Surrendering something that is not yours should not be considered an onerous requirement, Lyn. I know it's a nice planet, I'm quite fond of it myself, but it isn't yours and I'm not thrilled at the idea of you deciding who can live there.

And the Federation is completely, 100% not guilty of its own BS?

Of course it is, like everyone else. The sins of one doesn't absolve the other, though. Nor does the insidious threat of the faithful invalidate the open threat of the war machine. Both are problematic at the very best of days, and either are ignored only at significant peril.

Why do people always respond to statements illuminating flaws, threats or problems with "yeah but X is dangerous, greedy, flawed, this and that too!" as if it somehow cancels out the initial subject?

I know! Isn't it absolutely appalling that we had to go to that sort of extreme to get your attention? I'll gladly give Heth full blame for not negotiating a settlement once we had the Titan in orbit (for five years!) but the fact that we had to invade at all? That's on the Federation, I'm afraid.

To avoid circular argument, where I simply repeat everything I've said before, I will go so far as to simply point out that between you, Lyn and yourself managed to take the position that the State ought to have both surrendered it's home planet AND given over it's new colonies before leaving the Federation.

No. Now, why don't you go join the conversation where you lambast the Amarrians for being oppressive and unreasonable overlords?

Erm, that's not what I said, it might be what you think I said, or hope I said, because it's a point you can argue against.

But it's not what I said.

Not at all, it needed to never even go that far, the blockades, the ethnic cleansing ground side, all of it, could have all been avoided long, long before. The other member states of the Federation could have been compensated financially for the Caldari deception, before they seceeded peacefully. No loss of life or home and no prolonged conflict that has long lost a great deal of it's meaning and mostly exists to fund the arms dealers.