These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[NEWS] “Operation Highlander” documents released, implicate Federation in widespread spying

Author
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#101 - 2013-10-28 03:34:12 UTC
I only had to watch those two freighters burning, to be honest. The moment a leader puts his prestige ahead of the lives and security of his people there is really only one way.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#102 - 2013-10-28 03:39:07 UTC
Whatever fault I found in the support of State Citizens for Tibus Heth I certainly expressed at the time. I don't feel the need to revisit every example of the "simple disagreements on policy" from those days.

I only hope you'll consider that it doesn't make someone a traitor that they knew Heth's true colors before you did. Consider also the price paid by those Heth deemed "traitors" for opposing him. I seem to remember you expressing shock some months back after a "riot" broke out during the audit of the Wiyrkomi Honor Guard.

Ask yourself what you trust more now, the bond you had with those you considered kirjuun, or the story fed to you by the Provist thugs in the Home Guard?
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#103 - 2013-10-28 03:53:30 UTC
Rebellion is a difficult thing, Rinai. I think every man has to say when enough is enough on his own terms. I don't agree with those who supported Heth right up until his removal and his being charged for various crimes by the CEP but I don't blame them, either. I reserve my blame for those who continued to follow him afterwards.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#104 - 2013-10-28 03:57:48 UTC
Isis Dea wrote:

As contrary to what most of the State immortals and corporate elite would love to believe, Heth filled a void in so many Caldari people. This filled void allowed for justified hate (as contrary to what many of the Federation immortals would love to believe) and while Heth did commit crimes, many would argue his crimes are nothing when compared to those committed daily by the corporate elite.


Contrary to what most affected jaijii believe, State corporate realpolitik is a subtle game played requiring both pragmatism and intelligence. A pragmatism and intelligence that leads one to not disclose ones actual thoughts and plans in public.

It's done. It's over. Heth couldn't politick and secure his position and power, thus he deserved neither.

Feel free to cling to a past most in the State no longer care for, and an experiment that failed.


Kurilaivonen|Concern

TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#105 - 2013-10-28 04:14:43 UTC  |  Edited by: TomHorn
Quote:
quote]#98 Posted: 2013.10.28 02:53 | Report Like Honestly, all this talk of traitors to the State. Maybe some of you need reminding that only a short time ago Heth was ordering the executions of those he deemed to be "traitors" for protesting his regime. Perhaps some have forgotten just how long they continued to *defend* Heth's atrocities. Just how thick the blood was running in the street before they spoke out.

I suppose it is only natural for some to take the hard line now, after such a bloody national tragedy. Remember, if you can, the true nature of Tibus Heth. His charisma, and his brutality. Then ask yourself if you can blame those few Caldari who worked against his regime from the beginning. And with so little support within the State, can you blame them for accepting support offered by the Federation?

Heth's reign was only ever destined to end in fire. The only question was how many would be consumed in the flames. Our intelligence services worked tirelessly to prevent Heth from his aim of destroying our people. In time perhaps more Caldari will recognize the bravery of those within the State who took up the task of preventing him from destroying yours. That they found Gallente allies does not make them traitors. Their cause was to save the State, not betray it.

Believe me, if my Federation were to descend into the kind of tyranny shown by Heth... I would not hesitate a moment to accept support from the State in order to see it restored.
[/quote]

Heth was right, megacorporations had been infiltrated by traitors. No one accepted support from the Federation, top executives were compromised and they betrayed the State by working with the Federation.

Operatives had infiltrated all 8 megacorporations, im sure they played their part in organising protests and disruption within the megas, and helped in casuing consternation which helped in overthrowing the Heth regime.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#106 - 2013-10-28 04:54:21 UTC
TomHorn wrote:


Heth was right, megacorporations had been infiltrated by traitors. No one accepted support from the Federation, top executives were compromised and they betrayed the State by working with the Federation.

Operatives had infiltrated all 8 megacorporations, im sure they played their part in organising protests and disruption within the megas, and helped in casuing consternation which helped in overthrowing the Heth regime.


I'm sure there are numerous Caldari intel assets working within the Federation government. President Roden is undoubtedly better informed about their reach and influence than I am. Any thinking person knows that two nations at war will inevitably have active espionage campaigns. We don't see Roden descending into paranoid madness and ordering freighters full of civilian protesters destroyed by the Black Eagles.

So what if Heth was right that the Gallente were spying? Clearly he was incapable of countering such espionage without resorting to barbarism. Your defense of his actions only proves you a barbarian along with him.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#107 - 2013-10-28 09:00:48 UTC  |  Edited by: TomHorn
Quote:
I'm sure there are numerous Caldari intel assets working within the Federation government. President Roden is undoubtedly better informed about their reach and influence than I am. Any thinking person knows that two nations at war will inevitably have active espionage campaigns. We don't see Roden descending into paranoid madness and ordering freighters full of civilian protesters destroyed by the Black Eagles.

So what if Heth was right that the Gallente were spying? Clearly he was incapable of countering such espionage without resorting to barbarism. Your defense of his actions only proves you a barbarian along with him.


Most consider being a traitor to be the most abominable of all crimes punishable by death. Having top level executives in the megas as traitors is like having traitors very close to or within ones own goverment . Serious situation that needs to be resolved.

Your goverments use of death squads has been reported on in the past. Which is something Heths goverment has not been accused of. You talk about barbarism, but it is you who are the barbarians.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2013-10-28 10:47:19 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
Most consider being a traitor to be the most abominable of all crimes punishable by death.

Which is why you'll surely support the CEP if they order Heth's execution.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2013-10-28 11:08:36 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
Quote:
I'm sure there are numerous Caldari intel assets working within the Federation government. President Roden is undoubtedly better informed about their reach and influence than I am. Any thinking person knows that two nations at war will inevitably have active espionage campaigns. We don't see Roden descending into paranoid madness and ordering freighters full of civilian protesters destroyed by the Black Eagles.

So what if Heth was right that the Gallente were spying? Clearly he was incapable of countering such espionage without resorting to barbarism. Your defense of his actions only proves you a barbarian along with him.


Most consider being a traitor to be the most abominable of all crimes punishable by death. Having top level executives in the megas as traitors is like having traitors very close to or within ones own goverment . Serious situation that needs to be resolved.

Your goverments use of death squads has been reported on in the past. Which is something Heths goverment has not been accused of. You talk about barbarism, but it is you who are the barbarians.


Seriously? You don't remember when he gunned down thousands of protestors?

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Violca Kari
Doomheim
#110 - 2013-10-28 11:54:15 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Scherezad wrote:
Perhaps you ought ask the Ni-Kunni what they think of their own erasure, and whether they feel themselves a footnote to the Amarr. I fear you may find a different answer than the one you suggest would happen to us.

Yes! Let's ask the Ni-Kunni what they think of their cultural erasure. In particular, perhaps we could ask the city-dwelling Ni-Kunni.

Oh wait.

Cultures change even when left to themselves, sir. I'm not a fan of war or conquest, but I doubt that the Cultural Deliverance that the Gallente offered us would have been less damaging than enslavement. Both have aims of forcing compliance.

I still think that it would be a good question to ask the Ni-Kunni, sarcasm aside.


The lion's share of Ni-Kunni within the Empire exist as members of the lower classes, performing mostly service sector jobs for our wealthier Amarrian neighbors. I won't pretend that we, as a whole, would be better off had we been left to our own devices - we likely would not have even figured out basic atmospheric flight yet - but only the deluded and indoctrinated can say, with any sort of straight face, that such an "uplifting" was "good" for us. What could we have become, had we been left alone? What could we have become, had say, the Caldari, or the Minmatar, or virtually *anyone* else made contact with us first? So, hmm, maybe I am defending the Caldari here, defending the desire to be left alone?

Sadly, we were not left alone, and reality is what it is. Yay! We get to be the people no one wants to live next door to and have virtually no say in our own affairs!

Within the Federation, we have much more autonomy. I was born here, I grew up here, and I am rather grateful for that. Yep, we're still the people no one wants to live next door to, but hey, at least here we are welcome to follow a different religion, speak our own language, and the like. We can be "ourselves" and we do just that. Yes, as long as we follow the rules (not saying that anyone else doesnt, now, no need for the Minmatar to get all mad and red and shouty, racism is definitely a thing here) we're welcome to be ourselves and do whatever it is we want. Cool.

The one time my people have faced any sort of organized racial sentiment during our history in the Federation was after Heth captured (or liberated, or retook, whatever) Caldari Prime. A fair number of Ni-Kunni had settled there over the years, a community he quickly had removed. I understand that whole "homeworld" idea, I really do. I am all for the Caldari's right to have their planet. My "homeworld" is in a place where I will never see it, and we, as a people, will never be able to "liberate" it. I was born on Caldari Prime, but was kicked off of it because someone who had never set foot on it claims more right to be there than "outsiders". So yeah, maybe I don't really understand it. Why couldn't we stay, exactly?

Anyway. In short, in this Ni-Kunni's opinion, we're better off here, in the Federation, than in the Empire, by far. I cant speak for everyone, everywhere, of course. I don't pretend to, I wouldn't want to.

Anyway, someone asked for a Ni-Kunni. You got one.
Frencai Ayan
Alexylva Paradox
#111 - 2013-10-28 12:31:33 UTC
The Ni-Kunni societies before the coming of the Amarr built civilizations on a world hardly meant to sustain even the simplest of life. It is through great perseverance and ingenuity that we created the world we did, and it is a testament to the Ni-Kunni spirit that we managed to do even that.

When you look to how far we came in the time we had before we were invaded, with what we had to work with, you should look with pride.

Had we the easy conditions of the Amarr Prime settlers, there is little doubt in my mind that we would today stand as one of the greatest nations in the cluster. Sadly, as it was, one could only do so much with so very little resources. We found an equilibrium of survival by building a relationship with our world and our gods - until it was torn apart.

The truth of the matter is that even for this, we do share cultural and spiritual customs that were always closer to the Amarrians than to the Gallenteans. This has always put us in a terrible position. We don't fit with either if we desire to be true to ourselves and to the dominions we once built from the roughest of sands.

Perhaps we would be better off with the Gallente, but even they are not right for us and our way.
We deserve our own way. One that reflects who we were, the elements we have incorporated from shared conventions with the Empire, and the facets that we need to survive in this modern age.

In this, to address in part what seemed to be the actual topic of discussion, we should have a similar progression to the Caldari. They had some of our misfortunes, although fate gave more unto us still.

... And just like the Caldari, once given the chance, we would be better off on our own.
Violca Kari
Doomheim
#112 - 2013-10-28 12:35:02 UTC
Well.

To be fair, we were closest, culturally, to the Minmatar.

Weird, eh?
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2013-10-28 12:39:23 UTC
It would be the Thukker Tribe, to be exact, right? The surviving Ni-Kunni ethnic group is predominantly descended from Mishi IV's nomadic tribes, if I remember my history correctly.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#114 - 2013-10-28 12:42:13 UTC
Violca Kari wrote:
Well.

To be fair, we were closest, culturally, to the Minmatar.

Weird, eh?


If it is any consolation, not very many ethnic Amarrians are truly ethnic Amarrians anymore. You would have to be in a very, very conservative family to only descend from our original islander people. I know I certainly do not. As such, I would not say a Ni-kunni, or anyone else, should be discriminated against on the basis of their race. Faith makes the Empire, and those of Godly being and righteous thought deserve all the riches of His kingdom in the cluster.

I've always thought that the idea of clinging to the race of an Amarrian, rather than judging him by his faith and works, said more about the judge than the accused.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Violca Kari
Doomheim
#115 - 2013-10-28 12:43:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Violca Kari
Constantin Baracca wrote:
Violca Kari wrote:
Well.

To be fair, we were closest, culturally, to the Minmatar.

Weird, eh?


If it is any consolation, not very many ethnic Amarrians are truly ethnic Amarrians anymore. You would have to be in a very, very conservative family to only descend from our original islander people. I know I certainly do not. As such, I would not say a Ni-kunni, or anyone else, should be discriminated against on the basis of their race. Faith makes the Empire, and those of Godly being and righteous thought deserve all the riches of His kingdom in the cluster.

I've always thought that the idea of clinging to the race of an Amarrian, rather than judging him by his faith and works, said more about the judge than the accused.


I think you missed my clever use of the past tense 1st person "to be" verb, "Were".

EDITED FOR DURR: Grammar is hard
Violca Kari
Doomheim
#116 - 2013-10-28 12:45:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Violca Kari
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
It would be the Thukker Tribe, to be exact, right? The surviving Ni-Kunni ethnic group is predominantly descended from Mishi IV's nomadic tribes, if I remember my history correctly.


Most of the Matari people were nomadic, if memory serves me, at one point or another.

I believe my people and the Vherokior to be those who - once - had the most culturally in common, but the Thukker, Starkmanir, and Sebiestor all practiced similar overland nomadic wanderings.

The Vherokior simply did it in an environment very similar to ours. Yay for sand!
Frencai Ayan
Alexylva Paradox
#117 - 2013-10-28 12:48:36 UTC
Violca Kari wrote:


The Vherokior simply did it in an environment very similar to ours. Yay for sand!


More appropriately, yay for water.
Violca Kari
Doomheim
#118 - 2013-10-28 12:52:02 UTC
Frencai Ayan wrote:
Violca Kari wrote:


The Vherokior simply did it in an environment very similar to ours. Yay for sand!


More appropriately, yay for water.


Honor the Rainmaker, indeed.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#119 - 2013-10-28 14:28:34 UTC
We never had a problem finding water on Home, the problem was that it was usually frozen, suspended in the air and traveling at a hundred kilometers an hour!

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#120 - 2013-10-28 16:57:33 UTC
Ni-Kunnis,

You were given a great gift more than a thousand years ago.

Your progenitors understood this, although I imagine they would be sad to see you have forgotten.

In any case there are certainly plenty more desert worlds out there; if you desire to return to your roots so much I suggest you maroon yourself and start wandering the desert scraping out an existence once more.



Sabik now, Sabik forever