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Incursions need work

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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#141 - 2013-10-27 23:40:22 UTC
Something someone said about sansha rats killing their destroyer reminded me...

Sansha rats in belts don't give LP, ISK or anything at all. Why is that a good idea?
PopplerRo
#142 - 2013-10-28 03:01:44 UTC  |  Edited by: PopplerRo
A number of people mention/moan about one tz screwing another over, potential solution would be mom needing to be killed in 2-3 stages similar to structure timers, if timer is missed it all resets. It would also extend the time of the incursion without needing to change any of the site mechanics.
Lag Amplifier
Insidious Bastards
#143 - 2013-10-28 03:19:25 UTC
Some valid points, Incursions do need work. Part of the reason the influence bar is ground down so fast now is because after the Incursion nerf that nearly killed every community (only a handful lived thru it) made it almost impossible to grind it down. So CCP made some changed to how the bar works as far as influence.

Scout Sites, are crap and are useless change them to be relevant or just remove them already.

I don't agree with you that people should die in HQ sites. The reason people don't die as often now is because everyone is better and Incursions have been out for so long we know exactly how to run them. How to fit the ships and what kind of fleet setup is need. When i first started Incursions it was common to see someone die in every site, that was just poor planning across the board for everyone.


my 2 cents, maybe some productive things will come out of this.
Dragoslove
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#144 - 2013-10-28 05:29:08 UTC
I like most of the ideas suggested, but I really hope that scout sites can be looked at as a way to bring newer players into fleet content. Incursions function as pretty much the only high sec pve multiplayer content, and newer players need to be encouraged to interact instead of grinding missions until they're ready to join "real pve". I'd like to see a little more variety of difficulty between sites, maybe a slight nerf to vanguard payouts, and an increase in difficulty to HQ's and Assaults.
Corymbi Pavo-Bootes
Bootes Bunyips
#145 - 2013-10-28 07:06:05 UTC
+1 I agree that incursions seem to be easy once you have been doing them for several months: more about churning out isk than fighting Sancha.

Making them more difficult initially and varying them sound excellent solutions. I have to give thumbs up to Gantrithor105's suggestions.

Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#146 - 2013-10-28 08:18:24 UTC
For starters, let's take the following as an axiom: nobody actually likes popping moms. Even those who do pop them. They too get to wait a day and drag their stuf across the New Eden.

Popping moms is not done out of whim or spite - it's a perfectly rational and calculated asymmetrical warfare to contests.

It's not really a whim or spite, it's the only defence a non-shiny newbie-freindly group can put up against a shiny group. Apart from not participating in incursions at all, that is. It's a warning colouration to a potential contester - "I AM willing and able to pop a mom if you contest me".

You can't really complain about such a tactic breaking everybody's fun if your fun (contesting other groups, including those who can not, by any definition, win a contest) is breaking their fun.
Kodavor
Iz Doge Korp .
#147 - 2013-10-28 09:28:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kodavor
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
For starters, let's take the following as an axiom: nobody actually likes popping moms. Even those who do pop them. They too get to wait a day and drag their stuf across the New Eden.

Popping moms is not done out of whim or spite - it's a perfectly rational and calculated asymmetrical warfare to contests.

It's not really a whim or spite, it's the only defence a non-shiny newbie-freindly group can put up against a shiny group. Apart from not participating in incursions at all, that is. It's a warning colouration to a potential contester - "I AM willing and able to pop a mom if you contest me".

You can't really complain about such a tactic breaking everybody's fun if your fun (contesting other groups, including those who can not, by any definition, win a contest) is breaking their fun.



Let me just ask you one thing . What do you consider a contest ? Here's my definition of it in the Incursion field and the circumstances surrounding it .

A contesting fleet : A fleet that willingly enters an Incursion site that already has one or more fleets in it and contests them for the rewards of the site .

A defending fleet : A fleet that entered an Incursion site first and is defending it's rewards if confronted by a contesting fleet .


Now that a clear definition of the fleets and actions in question are known let me ask you once more : How many times did you contest someone ? Are you saying that a defending fleet should not defend it's rewards ? Are you suggesting that whoever arrived first should be granted the reward ?

I will name examples :

* Sansha Nation arrived first to gather humans and make them into slaves . They arrived first yet you are shooting them .
* " My potatoes are creepy " corporation arrived first in 15 unclaimed solar systems and started to make itself at home . Should any other corporation going through those systems and seeing that they are vulnerable and easily conquerable simply move on because they were late on being first ?


This game is thoroughly based on defending and contesting for the rewards . Isn't that one of the reasons why you joined this game to begin with ? If not then ... well ... I'm sorry but you dislike the core principle of this game then and are trying to redefine EvE as a whole .


P.S. Good thing that one can not blow up a solar system because they were contested out of it .
Ludus Lucrius
WildCards 22nd
#148 - 2013-10-28 09:35:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ludus Lucrius
Hi

1. Idea was suggested some time before to not have site dedicated type systems in constelation but each site type can spawn everywhere in constellation, so you would have VG, AS, HQ sites all over constelation.

2. Contest caused griefing could be resolved by dividing site payout amongst contesting fleets in a ratio of their contribution to site completion.

3. And site report with fleets perfomance statistics would be nice too :)

4. Making blue bar grinding more difficult to get to 100% and keep at 100%, having mom site spawned only when it is at 100%, mom site would despawn if bar goes down from 100%, and respawn when it goes back to 100% (in case of point 1 (no dedicated site system) it could spawn and respawn in any of constelation systems).

5. I support idea of shorter incursion respawn timers when it gets popped and also lesser timers for incursion max farming times (because let's be ralistic 3-4 days farming just one incursion is more than enough, more than that just is wrong from the point of poor constelation citizens we are trying to help to get rid of sansha menace :) )

Ludus
Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#149 - 2013-10-28 09:42:39 UTC
Kodavor I'm sorry but you[u wrote:
dislike the core principle of this game[/u] then and are trying to redefine EvE as a whole . .

TLDR:

Dear CCP, those dirty peasants are not playing the way I want them to, please fix it.

Go complain about GSF blobbing people out with T1 cruisers. After all, it's not how the game is supposed to be played. They are supposed to jump through a gate one by one and die horribly for your personal amusement.
Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#150 - 2013-10-28 09:43:28 UTC
Ludus Lucrius wrote:
Hi
2. Contest caused griefing could be resolved by dividing site payout amongst contesting fleets in a ratio of their contribution to site completion.

+1 to this.
Kodavor
Iz Doge Korp .
#151 - 2013-10-28 10:45:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kodavor
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
Kodavor I'm sorry but you[u wrote:
dislike the core principle of this game[/u] then and are trying to redefine EvE as a whole . .

TLDR:

Dear CCP, those dirty peasants are not playing the way I want them to, please fix it.

Go complain about GSF blobbing people out with T1 cruisers. After all, it's not how the game is supposed to be played. They are supposed to jump through a gate one by one and die horribly for your personal amusement.



For your TL;DR : Core principle is - Fight for the resources . Winner get's it all .

If you are podded you don't lose only half of your implants because you dealt some damage to the ship that killed you .
If your SOV is attacked and you poorly defend it you don't get to keep 20% of it .
If you are ganked in a freighter is Niarja you don't get to keep 50% of your cargo .
Then why the F you should keep any % of any sites payout if you fail to defend it ?
Tara Tyrael
Quantum Anomaly Corporation
#152 - 2013-10-28 11:08:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tara Tyrael
Ludus Lucrius wrote:

1. Idea was suggested some time before to not have site dedicated type systems in constelation but each site type can spawn everywhere in constellation, so you would have VG, AS, HQ sites all over constelation.

That would be epic, imagine VG fleet and somebody leeroys in HQ site, +1 for this

Ludus Lucrius wrote:

2. Contest caused griefing could be resolved by dividing site payout amongst contesting fleets in a ratio of their contribution to site completion.

This is interesting concept, but like Kodavor said, why should you keep something you failed to do, and not to mention that you would had 30 man fleets spread in 3 fleets running VG sites in under a minute because they can do 50 sited per hour and get payed instead of each of them being able to do 10-15 sites per hour. Also would enable you to contest with smaller sites with 2 fleets and push the split even more down for defending fleet

Ludus Lucrius wrote:

3. And site report with fleets perfomance statistics would be nice too :)

Definitely +1

Ludus Lucrius wrote:

4. Making blue bar grinding more difficult to get to 100% and keep at 100%, having mom site spawned only when it is at 100%, mom site would despawn if bar goes down from 100%, and respawn when it goes back to 100% (in case of point 1 (no dedicated site system) it could spawn and respawn in any of constelation systems).

+1

Ludus Lucrius wrote:

5. I support idea of shorter incursion respawn timers when it gets popped and also lesser timers for incursion max farming times (because let's be ralistic 3-4 days farming just one incursion is more than enough, more than that just is wrong from the point of poor constelation citizens we are trying to help to get rid of sansha menace :) )

+1, I support 3-4 days, 1 day to short, 48 hours kinda short, but 72-84 hours would be nice.
Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#153 - 2013-10-28 11:14:04 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD LackOfFaith
Kodavor wrote:
For your TL;DR : Core principle is - Fight for the resources . Winner get's it all .

Of course. So we can pop moms until someone gets tired and gives up. The one who's left gets it all.

In fact, I've been in the system, when the latest MOM {*snip*}TRAIN (actual quote) started, and this appears to be the case. Judging by local logs, ISN dared DIN to close the incursion reasoning that DIN would lose more from it. Didn't work as expected.

Redacted filter-avoiding profanity. -- ISD LackOfFaith
ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#154 - 2013-10-28 14:25:50 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD LackOfFaith
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Misaka Kusanagi
SangvisFerri
#155 - 2013-10-28 15:09:27 UTC
+1 to pretty much everything in the first 3 posts
PopplerRo
#156 - 2013-10-28 15:13:05 UTC
Torgeir Hekard wrote:


In fact, I've been in the system, when the latest MOM {*snip*}TRAIN (actual quote) started, and this appears to be the case. Judging by local logs, ISN dared DIN to close the incursion reasoning that DIN would lose more from it. Didn't work as expected.

Redacted filter-avoiding profanity. -- ISD LackOfFaith


Please actually learn who did what and why before you post incorrectly.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#157 - 2013-10-28 15:14:44 UTC
Just a question for all you 'Hurr time limits on the mothership' crowd:

If an incursion spawns on an important JB or cyno route in Nullsec, why, exactly, should it be impossible to clear quickly?

if a group want to roleplay as good guys saving all the people from the sansha, why shouldn't they be able to do it?

And finally, WHY should you be able to farm sites for silly amounts of ISK without even a single hint of risk?
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#158 - 2013-10-28 15:53:50 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Just a question for all you 'Hurr time limits on the mothership' crowd:

If an incursion spawns on an important JB or cyno route in Nullsec, why, exactly, should it be impossible to clear quickly?

if a group want to roleplay as good guys saving all the people from the sansha, why shouldn't they be able to do it?

And finally, WHY should you be able to farm sites for silly amounts of ISK without even a single hint of risk?

How about we simplify this, any ship taking damage is at Risk, so no ship in an incursion site is ''without even a single hint of risk?''

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#159 - 2013-10-28 16:16:06 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Just a question for all you 'Hurr time limits on the mothership' crowd:

If an incursion spawns on an important JB or cyno route in Nullsec, why, exactly, should it be impossible to clear quickly?

if a group want to roleplay as good guys saving all the people from the sansha, why shouldn't they be able to do it?

And finally, WHY should you be able to farm sites for silly amounts of ISK without even a single hint of risk?

How about we simplify this, any ship taking damage is at Risk, so no ship in an incursion site is ''without even a single hint of risk?''



But NPCs aren't any real risk to anyone remotely competent. Thus. there is no external risk in highsec incursions, and the only hint of danger comes from a pilot's own incompetence...
Cornwalace
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2013-10-28 16:37:14 UTC
PopplerRo wrote:
A number of people mention/moan about one tz screwing another over, potential solution would be mom needing to be killed in 2-3 stages similar to structure timers, if timer is missed it all resets. It would also extend the time of the incursion without needing to change any of the site mechanics.


I like this idea...