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Balancing Feedback: Tier3 Battlecruisers

First post
Author
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#741 - 2011-11-17 23:12:33 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Dude I literally just went on SiSi and flew a neutron blaster naga. It wasn't half bad-- big tank, speedy ~*enough*~, has 37km range (or somwhere in there) with null. Does decent DPS. I don't know what you guys are complaining about, especially since torpedoes are literally the most god-awful weapon system ever and won't do any damage to anything smaller than an MWDing dread.

Hell, it's even got Ferox factor-- some frigate pilot was all "hey look a terrible ship" and burned right at my Naga when I warped to a combat site at range, resulting in his immediate blapping.


Simple answer: because Caldari Pilots use missiles and would actually like something other than the freaking drake to fly.

Gallente pilots train Hybrids. Caldari Pilots train missiles.


Then the Caldari pilots are functionally ******** and willfully ignorant. Here's how the breakdown actually works assuming competent non-morons:

Amarr train lasers and missiles
Gallente train hybrids and drones
Caldari train hybrids and missiles
Minmatar train projectiles and missiles

If you really want to enjoy EVE Online: A Complex Game, you train some of everything, since even beyond these general patterns each race has certain ships that require additional skillsets (Gallente / Minmatar need to train shield and armor tanking skills, for example. Certain Amarr boats make extensive use of drones. And then there are the pirate ships, which just use random mixes of everything.

Sometimes, you have to train things. Deal with it.
Iam Widdershins
Victory or Whatever
#742 - 2011-11-17 23:17:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
Phantomania wrote:
Iam Widdershins wrote:



Quote:
heavy missile naga lol Lol

Laugh all you want, but it has been presented as a viable and capable alternative fitting for the ship; it is far faster than the Drake with a much smaller signature radius, while having the same range and dealing 14 percent more damage than the Drake in explosive, thermal, and EM damage profiles while the Drake only deals 9 percent more damage in the kinetic profile: allaround, better damage and maneuverability than the Drake, proving itself a very capable addition to the popular Drake and Nano-Drake fleets.




OK, going on this, how about if we ask CCP to keep Naga as is w/ current bonus's & add the 8 launcher hardpoints but with no bonus's, no CPU/PG reduction for SML.

This way it remains a Large Hybrid Turret boat capable of fitting HMLs or HALs as an interesting alt for the Drake!

Wouldn't this be reasonable?

That would be interesting, but it would be weird; it is possible, even viable, to put medium guns on the other new 3TBC though. I would be happier than I am now, but there was really something special about having a Torpedo Drake to me. It's something I have been specifically looking forward to since the new BC were announced, and to not have it now seems a crying shame to me.

Plus: HML were actually harder to fit than Siege launchers were with the bonuses. So there is also that.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature

Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
SE7EN-SINS
#743 - 2011-11-17 23:48:10 UTC
I've been having a whole bunch of fun zipping around Sisi in a 350 Sniper Naga. It doesn't have a high DPS, but the alpha strike is nice and the range on those guns is incredible. Anyone who might pose a threat to me can be seen coming a mile off, and I can warp to safety easily. As a last resort, the Naga can fit a damn beefy tank and wait out an enemy while backup arrives. This is definitely a combat style I could get used to, especially if I had support to call on if someone got too close for comfort.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Bomberlocks
Bombercorp
#744 - 2011-11-17 23:55:10 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:
.....

Bomberlocks wrote:
King Solomon solution to all the bickering: Make the Tier 3 Bcs what they were originally supposed to be: Cap killers. Drop all turrets and give them a racial Citadel Torp fitting, range and damage bonus and covert cloak

That way they'll be good at what they were supposed to be good at, like Stealth bombers are, and not good at what they weren't supposed to good at, like being so totally OP that they make cruisers, HACs, BCs and BS obsolete.

The problem with this is nobody would be able to fly them day to day. They would be useless for all but 1 thing, completely worthless against any subcapital targets (except maybe Marauders hahaha) and require a bizarre amount of training to even fit the weapons (which cost more than the ship hull...each). Believe it or not, most people never get to kill a capital ship.

Who cares how long they take to train and if anyone actually flies them? They are going to unbalance a game that already suffers from terrible lack of balance. Making the tier 3 BCs fit Citadel Torps gets them out of everyone's hair except cap pilots and after two years of supercaps online I think there is a distinct lack of sympathy for them so no one will care.
Jake Blackstone
Perkone
Caldari State
#745 - 2011-11-18 00:09:39 UTC
I just wanted to say after finding out that the Naga was to become blaster boat rather than a torp ship is absolute maddening. The naga should be made accessible to the vast majority of caldari pilots who have trained torps to PvP. Being a devoted caldari pilot, we should not have to spend another 2 months of training to just fly our new tier 3 battlecruiser. This ship should be changed to what it is meant to be which is a torp ship in the true caldari fashion.
Foofad
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#746 - 2011-11-18 00:26:33 UTC
A ton of pilots in general train torps to PVP, vis a vis stealth bombers. But right now the Caldari have no worthwhile railboats, and they do have worthwhile missile and torpedo ships. It fills a much needed gap in the Caldari lineup for a truly decent hybrid platform.
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#747 - 2011-11-18 02:01:20 UTC
Sigras wrote:

Fact- All of the top tier caldari boats for every sub capital class are hybrid (Merlin, Moa, Rokh).


Wrong!

Merlin, Moa and Rokh are all split weapon ships which have a range bonus to hybrids. Rokh is the only one of the three that can fill all its high slots with turrets, but it can also field half with missiles. Merlin is limited to 50% turrets 50% missiles. Each also has more missile slots and less drone band width then their equal in any other race. Moa may be tied with Rupture but meh.




Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown

erfta
State War Academy
Caldari State
#748 - 2011-11-18 02:14:39 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Dude I literally just went on SiSi and flew a neutron blaster naga. It wasn't half bad-- big tank, speedy ~*enough*~, has 37km range (or somwhere in there) with null. Does decent DPS. I don't know what you guys are complaining about, especially since torpedoes are literally the most god-awful weapon system ever and won't do any damage to anything smaller than an MWDing dread.

Hell, it's even got Ferox factor-- some frigate pilot was all "hey look a terrible ship" and burned right at my Naga when I warped to a combat site at range, resulting in his immediate blapping.


Simple answer: because Caldari Pilots use missiles and would actually like something other than the freaking drake to fly.

Gallente pilots train Hybrids. Caldari Pilots train missiles.


Then the Caldari pilots are functionally ******** and willfully ignorant. Here's how the breakdown actually works assuming competent non-morons:

Amarr train lasers and missiles
Gallente train hybrids and drones
Caldari train hybrids and missiles
Minmatar train projectiles and missiles

If you really want to enjoy EVE Online: A Complex Game, you train some of everything, since even beyond these general patterns each race has certain ships that require additional skillsets (Gallente / Minmatar need to train shield and armor tanking skills, for example. Certain Amarr boats make extensive use of drones. And then there are the pirate ships, which just use random mixes of everything.

Sometimes, you have to train things. Deal with it.



caldari train missiles and jump to projectile/mini to round out. That might change in the next 6months if rail fits stop being awful. And no the naga isnt enough to make t2 hybrids worth the trouble of training them over just getting a better weapon system.

no one reads the TOS not even the guy that writes it. this is sig worthy http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/11/09/mortal-online-plagiarizes-eve-onlines-terms-of-service/1#c35015206

Foofad
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#749 - 2011-11-18 03:37:44 UTC
Jake Blackstone wrote:
I just wanted to say after finding out that the Naga was to become blaster boat rather than a torp ship is absolute maddening. The naga should be made accessible to the vast majority of caldari pilots who have trained torps to PvP. Being a devoted caldari pilot, we should not have to spend another 2 months of training to just fly our new tier 3 battlecruiser. This ship should be changed to what it is meant to be which is a torp ship in the true caldari fashion.


Define "damn beefy tank", because the best I can do with my Naga and still have utility mids is 36k ehp.
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#750 - 2011-11-18 04:43:29 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:
Phantomania wrote:
Iam Widdershins wrote:



Quote:
heavy missile naga lol Lol

Laugh all you want, but it has been presented as a viable and capable alternative fitting for the ship; it is far faster than the Drake with a much smaller signature radius, while having the same range and dealing 14 percent more damage than the Drake in explosive, thermal, and EM damage profiles while the Drake only deals 9 percent more damage in the kinetic profile: allaround, better damage and maneuverability than the Drake, proving itself a very capable addition to the popular Drake and Nano-Drake fleets.




OK, going on this, how about if we ask CCP to keep Naga as is w/ current bonus's & add the 8 launcher hardpoints but with no bonus's, no CPU/PG reduction for SML.

This way it remains a Large Hybrid Turret boat capable of fitting HMLs or HAMs as an interesting alt for the Drake!

Wouldn't this be reasonable?

That would be interesting, but it would be weird; it is possible, even viable, to put medium guns on the other new 3TBC though. I would be happier than I am now, but there was really something special about having a Torpedo Drake to me. It's something I have been specifically looking forward to since the new BC were announced, and to not have it now seems a crying shame to me.

Plus: HML were actually harder to fit than Siege launchers were with the bonuses. So there is also that.




But perhaps it could put closure to this issue, all the PvPers that want the Naga left alone, get it. And those missile pilots not wanting to be left out, get something to play with!

OK?? Big smile
OT Smithers
Perkone
Caldari State
#751 - 2011-11-18 05:21:00 UTC
I find it sad that the typical Gallente pilot, with zero Caldari ship command skills, can fit and fly a naga faster than the typical Caldari pilot.
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#752 - 2011-11-18 05:33:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Phantomania
OT Smithers wrote:
I find it sad that the typical Gallente pilot, with zero Caldari ship command skills, can fit and fly a naga faster than the typical Caldari pilot.



That's cause it only takes bout 3days to train for any of the New BCs, it's the weapons they use that takes longer!
Iam Widdershins
Victory or Whatever
#753 - 2011-11-18 06:15:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
Bomberlocks wrote:
Who cares how long they take to train and if anyone actually flies them? They are going to unbalance a game that already suffers from terrible lack of balance. Making the tier 3 BCs fit Citadel Torps gets them out of everyone's hair except cap pilots and after two years of supercaps online I think there is a distinct lack of sympathy for them so no one will care.

TL;DR you're a jaded, angry blighter who genuinely believes everyone thinks the way you do.




Phantomania wrote:
But perhaps it could put closure to this issue, all the PvPers that want the Naga left alone, get it. And those missile pilots not wanting to be left out, get something to play with!

OK?? Big smile

I can state with a high degree of confidence that I am far more of a PVPer than you are or ever will be, and additionally that you're a moron.

In game of course.


Apparently I misconstrued the intent of this post. PVPers who think the Naga will be super great to use with railguns as a Talos with better rail bonuses want to keep their damage bonus no matter what; the Naga will go from being the absolute best anticapital DPS machine (and the #1 future structure bashing ship) to being relatively crap for shooting anything large at all. Any issues it has with sluggishness and EHP will only be exacerbated by being forced to deal with transversal and range instead of just spamming missiles like a proper Caldari ship should.

Everyone who complained that the torpedo Naga was bad for PVP was clearly unused to the intended application of torpedoes, and was expecting to be able to kill speedy cruisers with them as easily as they could with large autocannons.Bring back torpedoes please.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature

Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#754 - 2011-11-18 07:53:36 UTC
Nyio wrote:
This is what I think about the new ships:
The Gallente ship need to have some drone bonuses and the Caldari need missile bonuses.

That is all. Smile


Quoted for Trueth!

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#755 - 2011-11-18 08:04:52 UTC
Phantomania wrote:
Fact- Caldari has more T1 Sub-Caps were Missile Launcher points outway Turret points = Missiles are Caldari's Primary Weapon!

Fact- Caldari has no T1 Sub-Cap Ship that can carry a FULL 8-Slot rack of BS sized Launchers, unlike the other races, which have each at least one BS that can boast 8 of their Primary BS sized weapon!

Fact- CCP needs to fix Caldari's Primary Weapon!

Fact- Naga is supposed to be a Missile Boat with fixed Missiles and decent Missile Bonus's!


Doesn't take a Genius!



And you save me from having to point out that problem with Caldari BS Missile systems. No race other then Caldari have to use a Tech 2 Battle ship and a Maurader at that in order to field a full 8xBS weapons other then Caldari. It would have been realy nice to have a seconded non-Captial priced ship that could.

How ever Gallent are stuck at only between 300-480 Drone dps on there BS weapons too. So once again Caldari and Gallente are both being *crewed by having Fail Rails and Comakazi Blasters forced on them with out any real fixs for them.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#756 - 2011-11-18 08:14:47 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Iam Widdershins wrote:
People are forgetting that the only original complaint about the Torpedo Naga was that it has difficulties applying the damage, i.e. torpedoes are slow. This is easy to fix with role bonuses that makes torpedoes reach their max range quicker rather than chugging along at the same speed as a MWDing Naga.


No, it's nothing to do with the torp velocity.

The problem was the explosion radius of 450 m and the explosion velocity of ~108 m/s, requiring usage of a painter and web to apply good damage to its tier 3 counterparts, and the lack of a torp damage bonus which meant that it has less raw damage than any other tier 3 BC.

On the proper BS scale, torps are basically okay, because they work well against fat, slow BS bricks. But these tier 3 BCs are intended to be used more as skirmish platforms - if they go head to head with a BS then they'll just die horribly. As such, torpedos are a terrible weapon for the Naga - a torp Naga can't survive a close-range engagement against a BS, and it can't apply much torp DPS to smaller targets.

Against fellow t3 BCs, the torp Naga was hopeless. It had the lowest raw DPS of any, lacking a torp damage bonus. It needed to get into web range to apply that poor DPS, which it found difficult being the slowest. It needed at least one painter to apply its poor raw DPS too. The result was a slow ship that was only effective inside web range and had relatively poor DPS even when it somehow managed to apply its EFT maximum.

It was a nonsense, a pointless ship, one utterly outclassed by every other t3 BC at close range and at long range. It made the Talos look good, that's how bad it was. It was also terrible at PVE, for the same reasons of poor application of damage against elite frigates and cruisers. I am astonished that there is so much misinformed, clueless carebear whinging - it sounds like that idiotic missile whine thread after the QR missile boost, dozens of pages full of carebears whinging that they'd had to change their L4 fit, unable to comprehend that missile PVP had just been massively boosted.

The rail Naga has a substantial DPS advantage over every other t3 BC beyond ~80 km. It is a useful ship that will be flown; the torp Naga was a pointless embarrassment.


I got news for you if it had problems with speed as a Torp plateform that's not going to get any better with a Hybird one. And it's only a differnts of opion as they could have droped the bloodie Hybird bonus and given it some real Missile bonus that made it work just fine as a Caldari Torp spewing Moster. With Hybirds you just got Apirl Fooled this year for reals and with no take backs.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#757 - 2011-11-18 08:26:40 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
900dps oh noo that must be something , especially when my new naga can do 1000+ with 2 magstabs with void 10+6km opt/falloff
and has less fitting issues ,no missile lag etc.
The best part was about torp naga it couldnt fit t2 launchers + tackler gear due to horribly low cpu.

"Against capitals, Rage torpedoes would do just sick damage."
hmm 940dps all lvl 5 with 2 bcs yeah totally sick dmg not in a good way thou

"Torpedoes have their problems applying damage, sure. Big explosion radius, low explosion velocity, yada yada. They are Battleship weapons, what do you expect."
strange other battle ship weapons (guns) have much less problem applying dmg


here is what i love the most:
"it works great in PVE with heavy missiles fit, doing more damage than the Drake in all but Kinetic, while it makes a fantastic DPS support ship against larger targets in PVE as well when fit with torpedoes."
so basically you wanted another pve missile ship, thx to say the truth even if it was burried between lots of false assumptions



I dont know what your smoking but you did not see Hybird plateforms on the top 20 kill boards this time around and your not very likely to see any the next time around ether. Hybirds blow before this expantion and there only going to blow just alittle less after this expation.

There just basicly easyer to fit then before with better tracking and alittle more dmg. O and the best thing they did do for them is a new 5 sec reload timer and lighter ammo.

Hybirds will just be a bit more usefull for everything there already used for and there for are not likely to end up on the Top 20.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#758 - 2011-11-18 08:37:38 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Dude I literally just went on SiSi and flew a neutron blaster naga. It wasn't half bad-- big tank, speedy ~*enough*~, has 37km range (or somwhere in there) with null. Does decent DPS. I don't know what you guys are complaining about, especially since torpedoes are literally the most god-awful weapon system ever and won't do any damage to anything smaller than an MWDing dread.

Hell, it's even got Ferox factor-- some frigate pilot was all "hey look a terrible ship" and burned right at my Naga when I warped to a combat site at range, resulting in his immediate blapping.


Simple answer: because Caldari Pilots use missiles and would actually like something other than the freaking drake to fly.

Gallente pilots train Hybrids. Caldari Pilots train missiles.


O your so close to being right here let me help you.

Simple answer: Because Caldari and Gallente Pilots use missiles and drones and would actually like something other then the freaking drake or Myrmidon to fly.

Only misslead Gallente and Caldari pilots train Hybirds to the Large levels.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#759 - 2011-11-18 08:44:16 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
OT Smithers wrote:

All true, and it misses the point. Everyone, including CCP, knows that Torps and Cruise missiles have huge issues -- this is why no one uses them. The solution is not to abandon missiles and all the people who spent months or years training them.

The solution is to fix the freaking missile problem.

The whole point of this so-called new direction is that CCP is supposed to have STOPPED this kind of half-assed bullshit. Yet here, again, we see that this is not the case.


Years? It takes maybe 2 months to fully train up missiles, same as it does rails. I never understood where people get this from.

standard missiles -> heavy missiles -> torps/cruise ->
... branch -> assault missiles -> heavy assault missiles

You branch off into 2 sections on the heavy side which lead to specialized missiles (low range/hi damage or LR/low damage, respectively)

small hybrid -> medium hybrid -> large hybrid
... branch -> small rails -> medium rails -> large rails

Supporting skills taks roughly the same time, just most missile users never bother with projection, bombardment, painting, etc.

Gunnery support skills help hybrids but apply to ALL turret platforms, thus opening you up to every race:
sharpshooter, controlled bursts, etc.

But to say that people spend YEARS training missiles is a joke. No it takes zero time, but people do that then ignore half of the race's other ships because CCP already made viable ships while the railships remained on the backburner.


Let me finsh what this guy started.

IN a round about way he say Trust In Rust and train Projectails and Winmatar.Bear

There see that's not so hard now is it.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#760 - 2011-11-18 08:48:03 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Iam Widdershins wrote:

I'm not asking to have the explosion velocity bonus back. That's fine, it can do without. Just give double-quick missiles and +50% torpedo velocity; having 2 extra bonuses is no problem for a ship that has one of two mutually exclusive weapon systems.



Double quick missiles means 100% to torpedo velocity. Is that per level?

Throw that on top of another 50% and you now have long range torps but still will have a slow explosion velocity.. If you increase both you will have an overpowered ship because it'll be painted and abused to where these can hit cruisers at range for high DPS.

Do you see how knife-edge it is now?



O you mean how the Winmatar Teir 3 is doing high dmg and can hit cruisers at range for high DPS too? Well **** lets nerf Projectials.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.