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SOV tearing down the old.

First post
Author
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-10-27 13:43:49 UTC  |  Edited by: ElQuirko
March rabbit wrote:
ElQuirko wrote:
"- everyone starts off alive
-people are still alive during a TB outbreak
-some people survive said TB outbreak

as long as these evidences present i see no point in developing a vaccine to TB. What for? People don't like it but some people can deal with it.

Only when nearly everyone has died from TB - then it will be time to develop a preventative vaccine for TB."

bad example:
- TB (whatever it is) comes to people
- SOV 0.0 don't force anyone to come there and suffer => people DECIDED they will live there and "suffer"


-TB comes from cramped conditions and fecal matter, and is water-borne. Was widespread pre modern-era due to poor sewage in settlements.
-Humanity didn't have to form complex society, we were perfectly happy as hunter-gatherers and farmers. People DECIDED they will form towns and cities and "suffer".

See the point I'm getting at? Sov is a necessary evil and, just like the side effects of humanity's necessary evils, needs to be worked at to be improved.

Dodixie > Hek

Xavier Higdon
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-10-27 13:48:12 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
A timer gives both parties an opportunity to plan and prepare for a fight at a certain place and a certain time.

Without timers, you will only end up with one alliance shooting structures while the other one is asleep, only for them to be shot again by the other alliance after you leave. Why should I commit forces to fight off your fleet if I can just wait for you to leave and flip the structure back without a fight?

tl;dr: timers = chance at fighting real people
no timers = shooting unmanned structures


This is the problem. If you can't defend your space, why should you get to keep it? The fact that your only strategy is to continuously flip Sov is due to reinforcement timers. You believe that you have some right to own what you can't afford to keep. The solution is simple, make friends in other timezones so that you can defend your systems, instead of arguing for the game to do it. Or better yet, think! Thinking occurs when you're forced to come up with a strategy to counter someone else's strategy. If you want something, figure out how to take it and keep it with what you have.
Grunanca
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2013-10-27 13:56:02 UTC
Erotica 1 wrote:

The idea of SOV in nullsec is somewhat of a paradox. You could argue that wormhole space is the final frontier. But I'd like to see nullsec more accessible to smaller groups of players. If Harry wants to put up a POS in VFK, he should be able to, even if it gets blown up immediately. SOV should be controlled by the players not the structures. If you don't want someone to put up a POS in "your" space, I think you should have to blow them up instead of relying on SOV structures. Sure, ultimately it's the players who put up the structures and defend them, but the current mechanics favor large groups. And no, I don't think NPC null solves any of this.

I'm not saying change the existing mechanics for the current space. Instead, open up a new area of null with different rules. Add to that NPC factions that actively gain and lose control of space. I'm sure some sort of creative storyline/lore could explain the difference.

I'd also like to see high sec and low sec opened up more to player involvement in the policing of space. Additionally, Faction Warfare should actually mean something to the rest of the players aside from market prices.

These are all related ideas- tied together by the belief that there should be more player involvement for all aspects of the game.


To make fewer people attack the pos, have the tower obtain the energy its hit with and once every 1 min, it shoots a beam with that amount of damage. If damage is too high, it instapops a ship because of the raw damage it fires. Very raw idea, but could be worked onCool
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#24 - 2013-10-27 14:04:54 UTC
If your answer is "just eliminate timers" you should stop posting now because you're obviously utterly clueless.

Now, if you said eliminate the need for timers by eliminating the reliance on structures to claim binary ownership of sov, then you are on the right track. However, turning warfare into TZ ping pong structure shoots is literally even worse than dominion mechanics, which are already an achievement in ill-consideration and ineptitude.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#25 - 2013-10-27 14:17:39 UTC
The problem with sov, and the major reason why it's such a tricky thing for CCP to have to consider, is that it's pretty binary.

Either you have timers, or not. Either people have to grind structures and end up with pre arranged fights on the timer, or it turns into a colossal display of timezone flipping ****ery. (played games like this, WHO being a major one. it is NOT fun at all)

This is exacerbated by the fact that, aside from having your name on it, there isn't a whole lot of reason to actually own space. There is not any point whatsoever in attempting manufacturing, and moon mining doesn't strictly require sov either.

Here is the list of benefits of holding sov, straight from the wiki.

Quote:
Benefits of Sovereignty There are various benefits for holding sovereignty over a system. These are listed below:

Protection is provided for the system. Without sovereignty, stations are vulnerable to attack at all times, even when SBUs have not been anchored at gates within the systems. Stations will also not have protection in the form of reinforcement timers if the station holder is not the sovereign entity over the system.
The ability to set up an Infrastructure Hub in the system is obtained. This in turn allows an alliance to greatly improve the infrastructure within the system as well as opens up the possibility for anchoring advanced Starbase structures such as Capital Ship Construction Arrays and Jump Bridges in the system.
25% less fuel is consumed by Starbases anchored in the system by corporations belonging to the sovereignty holding alliance.
Bragging rights! The system is displayed as belonging to the sovereign entity on the in-game starmap.


So... owning a station, and bragging rights. Because we already established that industry is nigh worthless, the only reason to even have iHubs is to build caps and bridges.

Those things need to be set up over a fairly significant time period. Timezone flippery will completely invalidate what few benefits there are of owning sov. So that flat out is not happening.

And that's the problem. CCP is between a rock and a hard place. The existing option isn't much fun, but the alternatives are much worse.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#26 - 2013-10-27 14:19:32 UTC
Hey, somebody who actually understands that which he pontificates on.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2013-10-27 14:30:43 UTC
ElQuirko wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
ElQuirko wrote:
"- everyone starts off alive
-people are still alive during a TB outbreak
-some people survive said TB outbreak

as long as these evidences present i see no point in developing a vaccine to TB. What for? People don't like it but some people can deal with it.

Only when nearly everyone has died from TB - then it will be time to develop a preventative vaccine for TB."

bad example:
- TB (whatever it is) comes to people
- SOV 0.0 don't force anyone to come there and suffer => people DECIDED they will live there and "suffer"


-TB comes from cramped conditions and fecal matter, and is water-borne. Was widespread pre modern-era due to poor sewage in settlements.
-Humanity didn't have to form complex society, we were perfectly happy as hunter-gatherers and farmers. People DECIDED they will form towns and cities and "suffer".

See the point I'm getting at? Sov is a necessary evil and, just like the side effects of humanity's necessary evils, needs to be worked at to be improved.


Tuberculosis (TB) is airbourne not water
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuberculosis
i believe the original reference is due to the TB in cattle in the UK.
It is believed that badgers are a source of infection for cattle and so a debate was started about culling badgers or trying to find a way to vaccinate badgers.
If anyone is still interested then i will reveal that careful experiments showed that if you perform a cull of at least 70% of badgers in a certain area within a 6 week period and do so via means that don't alarm the surviving badgers too much then you can in the medium term lower the amount of TB in cattle. They also found if you kill less, take longer or overly alarm the other badgers doing it then you make the TB problem worse.
After much debate a system of badger culling was chosen that would certainly alarm the other badgers and was started without knowing the original population numbers. After 6 weeks less than half the absurdly made up kill target was reached.
So all 3 criteria were breached and thus a bunch of native animals were slaughtered at great expense with the result that TB in cattle will almost certainly now rise in this area.
The government and farmers deem this a success and plan to do it again.
This is also why all elected officials that refuse to accept science should be jailed.
cf global warming
cf sustainable growth.

Jesus all this pointless blather on an internet spaceship forum just because i can't cope with people posting incorrect epidemiology.
dw i am stepping away from the keyboard slowly.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85

Xavier Higdon
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-10-27 14:49:55 UTC
The argument of OH MY GOD TIMEZONE is a bit idiotic in an MMO such as EVE. In an MMO that employs the shard mechanics of Ultima Online, which all of them except EVE do, you always have the main TZ for that shard to contend with. If it's a US EST shard, most of the players will be from that TZ and so you'll have that constant back and forth where you take it while they sleep, and they take it while you sleep. EVE, however, has no such problem. There is absolutely nothing preventing you from playing during their peak hours, and unless you're some kind of bigot, you can even ally with people in other timezones. I know, you think you're the only one holding you Alliance together, and if people are on when you aren't they'll awox, spy and steal. But really, if that happens you're a terrible leader and that's why reinforcements timers are so integral to you maintaining your control. Reinforcements timers should be replaced by a more realistic system of offense and defense. Why wouldn't people want a better system?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#29 - 2013-10-27 15:11:51 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And that's the problem. CCP is between a rock and a hard place. The existing option isn't much fun, but the alternatives are much worse.

No wonder TEST was so quick to :getout: of sov.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Cristl
#30 - 2013-10-27 15:43:40 UTC
ElQuirko wrote:

-TB comes from cramped conditions and fecal matter, and is water-borne. Was widespread pre modern-era due to poor sewage in settlements.
-Humanity didn't have to form complex society, we were perfectly happy as hunter-gatherers and farmers. People DECIDED they will form towns and cities and "suffer".

See the point I'm getting at? Sov is a necessary evil and, just like the side effects of humanity's necessary evils, needs to be worked at to be improved.


FYI: I think you're confusing TB with cholera. TB is transmitted by inhalation of aerosolised droplets (i.e. sneeze droplets).
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-10-27 16:37:59 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
A timer gives both parties an opportunity to plan and prepare for a fight at a certain place and a certain time.

Without timers, you will only end up with one alliance shooting structures while the other one is asleep, only for them to be shot again by the other alliance after you leave. Why should I commit forces to fight off your fleet if I can just wait for you to leave and flip the structure back without a fight?

tl;dr: timers = chance at fighting real people
no timers = shooting unmanned structures

This.

I don't really like timers and the structure grind more than anyone else, but how else one could account for the fact that there are things like timezones, work and life to consider? Eve is still a game and therefore has to take the backseat to real life and this is what the timers are for. Even with several days to work with you won't get everyone online because a number of your members have other stuff to do. But at least you get the chance to get enough people to form a defense, with less time (several hours or even less) there would be no way that is possible. Meaning that without timers sov and developing systems would be pointless because it would be impossible to prevent them from being taken from you unless for the rare case where you have actually already a sizeable fleet in the vicinity.

It's a neccessary evil.

That doesn't mean that sov is perfectly fine as it is, but any change needs to address such things as well and probably cannot get rid of all annoyances.

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.

Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2013-10-27 16:44:30 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
A timer gives both parties an opportunity to plan and prepare for a fight at a certain place and a certain time.

Without timers, you will only end up with one alliance shooting structures while the other one is asleep, only for them to be shot again by the other alliance after you leave. Why should I commit forces to fight off your fleet if I can just wait for you to leave and flip the structure back without a fight?

tl;dr: timers = chance at fighting real people
no timers = shooting unmanned structures



This. Hard to comprehend why people don't get this.

Drop a TCU, and then leave? K, it's totally undefended and will get destroyed very quickly. Oh, they came back to defend it? Then what are you whining about?

Reinforcement timers exist because this is a game, so there needs to be a balancing aspect. It would be very fun to work hard to hold a system only to lose it because you play with your friends who all live in the same time zone. You shouldn't be forced to recruit equal numbers of people from every part of the planet just to hold a system.

And I'd like to remind people that this system is quite a lot better than the old pos-spam. The foundation is fine, there's no reason to scrap the entire mechanic again. If you want to suggest new sov structures to add, that's one thing, but until people start actually making suggestions for improvement rather than whining about killing buildings and invulnerability timers, nothing is going to change.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#33 - 2013-10-27 17:09:32 UTC
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
A timer gives both parties an opportunity to plan and prepare for a fight at a certain place and a certain time.

Without timers, you will only end up with one alliance shooting structures while the other one is asleep, only for them to be shot again by the other alliance after you leave. Why should I commit forces to fight off your fleet if I can just wait for you to leave and flip the structure back without a fight?

tl;dr: timers = chance at fighting real people
no timers = shooting unmanned structures



This. Hard to comprehend why people don't get this.

Drop a TCU, and then leave? K, it's totally undefended and will get destroyed very quickly. Oh, they came back to defend it? Then what are you whining about?

Reinforcement timers exist because this is a game, so there needs to be a balancing aspect. It would be very fun to work hard to hold a system only to lose it because you play with your friends who all live in the same time zone. You shouldn't be forced to recruit equal numbers of people from every part of the planet just to hold a system.

And I'd like to remind people that this system is quite a lot better than the old pos-spam. The foundation is fine, there's no reason to scrap the entire mechanic again. If you want to suggest new sov structures to add, that's one thing, but until people start actually making suggestions for improvement rather than whining about killing buildings and invulnerability timers, nothing is going to change.

More structures.

The 8 hours while a tcu onlines can be very hectic. Unless you're in 10% tidi, i think the tcu onlines in 8 hours still, not 80.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#34 - 2013-10-27 17:53:54 UTC
It really comes down to the binary ownership of sov, and sov ownership in itself having little value beyond the psychological.

"Sov" should be a sliding scale of beneficial upgrades that groups can make to systems through consistent use. Your ability to upgrade a system is tied directly to how much you use it, limited by how much other groups do. The more another group is able to impede your consistent use of a system, the more vulnerable your "sov" upgrades become to destruction. CCP was on the right track with dominion, but they failed terribly with the IHUB and IHUB upgrade system, which should be much more varied, dynamic, and compelling, as opposed to just dumping upgrades in a sinlge massive hp timer box.

Stations should keep old school sovereignty mechanics though, so there's still something for massive coalitions to have massive wars over, making the rental system about station access and corresponding fees instead of binary sov ownership, tied of course to further incentives to nullsec production and trade.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

Atomic Virulent
Dark Matter Industrial
#35 - 2013-10-27 18:33:33 UTC
Let's just hope that any changes recommended by Goons are discarded and incinerated with the rest of the bio-hazardous materials.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#36 - 2013-10-27 18:40:53 UTC
Atomic Virulent wrote:
Let's just hope that any changes recommended by Goons are discarded and incinerated with the rest of the bio-hazardous materials.


Just like when they tried to get CCP to fix the FW abuses, and a whole bunch of other bugs and exploits, right?

Seriously, all the butthurt crybaby have-nots out there need to knock it out with the "Grr Goons!" nonsense. A good idea is a good idea no matter who it comes from.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
#37 - 2013-10-27 19:07:14 UTC

If timers stay, then I suppose siphons should have timers as well.

See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#38 - 2013-10-27 19:10:31 UTC
Erotica 1 wrote:

If timers stay, then I suppose siphons should have timers as well.


I must say, I think the siphons could have been done differently. As they stand, they seem like they are good for little more than griefing.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#39 - 2013-10-27 19:11:56 UTC
Erotica 1 wrote:
If timers stay, then I suppose siphons should have timers as well.


They should. However, I'm all for siphons being released as currently envisioned, so people can get an unmitigated view of structure spam and grind ping-pong at its absolute worst, and why it is an absolutely terrible idea.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2013-10-27 19:44:01 UTC
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
A timer gives both parties an opportunity to plan and prepare for a fight at a certain place and a certain time.

Without timers, you will only end up with one alliance shooting structures while the other one is asleep, only for them to be shot again by the other alliance after you leave. Why should I commit forces to fight off your fleet if I can just wait for you to leave and flip the structure back without a fight?

tl;dr: timers = chance at fighting real people
no timers = shooting unmanned structures



This. Hard to comprehend why people don't get this.

I think people don't get it because its complete BS.

Just like I can't take and keep sov because I want to solo, you shouldn't be able to take and keep sov because you want all US players or all EU players or all Rus players in your alliance.

That choice, which YOU make, doesn't force you to play ping pong, it just means you choose to play ping pong. If timers were removed and you recruited people from other time zones than those people out there that don't would be losing sov when you're shooting their stuff and not taking it back when you're sleeping because your balanced recruitment would mean as you log off to sleep / work, your elsewhere time zone friends are logging on to defend.

The only reason there is ping pong or was ping pong is because people are lazy or can't be arsed to recruit in a balanced way. So they whine to CCP for a weenus holder.

EvE is all about adapting. If timers were removed smart alliances would adapt and stupid alliances would fall. IMO there are a lot of stupid alliances and coalitions that are being babysat and propped up by the timer garbage.

It would also help to spread out the combat around the clock instead of the farcical blobfest we saw against Test, where Test jumping in ended up in a turkey shoot for Goons because of the overloaded system.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)