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Incursions need work

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Durka'durka Zu'lander
Zu'lander Centre For Kids Who Can't Read Good
#81 - 2013-10-27 14:17:00 UTC
Miss Monty wrote:
YES! That is exactly what incursions need, a magic key which spawns randomly to just one player at a certain point of sansha influence. What is better than any community being able to pop the mothership? No one of course.

It could be like pokemon, gotta collect them all. Please, CCP can they do battle too? Meantime, in Incursions the isk grind continues uninterrupted.


The point was the heading, not the implementation ... that was just spitballing. I thought most people would have the intelligence to figure that out /shrug
Miss Monty
Doomheim
#82 - 2013-10-27 14:54:50 UTC
Durka'durka Zu'lander wrote:
Miss Monty wrote:
Now I hear people say that it's about Eve players being able to participate in their chosen activity, however when the miners are killed or the industrialists ganked, or sov is lost or any of the other accepted outcomes of Eve gameplay, people are not free to carry on their chosen activities without readjusting.


In every other case that you have mentioned, it is within the victims' power to alter the outcome of their engagement. With incursions it is not. That is the entire point of this thread, and one which you have either missed or chosen to ignore. No-one is saying "boohoo we lost a contest" here, what we're saying is "if someone wants to kick over my sand castle, I should either be able to stop him or be able to build another one"


With many of the examples I have given there isn't always much at all that a player can do immediately to change events. At least incursions constantly respawn to keep the communities running, even if it is not as often as some would like. In the case of sov space, plenty of non pvp type players can be effected and have to readjust though they wouldn't chose things to go that way, much the same perhaps as VG groups/communities.

You may also spitball as much as you like, but requesting a change of game mechanics because you don't like the legitimate (supported by game mechanics) actions of some players remains what it is. At the end of the day, this is all just spitballing started by a very inconsistent post. It's a giant ball of spit by now.
The Foshkey
Cast Family Corporation
#83 - 2013-10-27 15:08:17 UTC
+1
Carl O'Neill
One Risky Click
Snuffed Out
#84 - 2013-10-27 15:18:05 UTC
While I don't mind contests, I don't think they are a valid game mechanic. There should be either active PvP present, or something else than just raw DPS of the fleets to determine who gets the payout from the site, like a hacking game for example.

Contests also don't fit into the game lore at all. The players should be fighting the Sansha, and not themselves. Now Sansha is basically a cow to be milked. Contests should be justified somehow, so it doesn't appear as it's all about the money ( which it of course is, atleast for the grunt. ) but about actually fighting the Incursion back. Or you could also remove the contesting mechanic all together, but that's boring.

Incursions need to be more focused and made harder.
Durka'durka Zu'lander
Zu'lander Centre For Kids Who Can't Read Good
#85 - 2013-10-27 15:20:44 UTC
Miss Monty wrote:
With many of the examples I have given there isn't always much at all that a player can do immediately to change events. At least incursions constantly respawn to keep the communities running, even if it is not as often as some would like. In the case of sov space, plenty of non pvp type players can be effected and have to readjust though they wouldn't chose things to go that way, much the same perhaps as VG groups/communities.

You may also spitball as much as you like, but requesting a change of game mechanics because you don't like the legitimate (supported by game mechanics) actions of some players remains what it is. At the end of the day, this is all just spitballing started by a very inconsistent post. It's a giant ball of spit by now.


There is a difference between "not much" and "nothing at all" - and people who live in sov space know the risks when they move there, and plan appropriately. I would love to move to 0.0 space, but as a person with a job and a family I only get to spend a few hours a week playing games.

I do incursions because it means that I can invest a small amount of time and get the maximum reward - which for me is being logi in a fun / friendly fleet, preferably under influence so there is a bit of a challenge as well (isk is nice, but I can afford to pay for PLEX if I need to). There is no other aspect of this game that I have found which allows me to do this other than incursions ... maybe sleeper sites, but I don't know where to sign up for those :)

The ball of spit comment made me lol. In my original post which I lost to the Internet Gods, I made a point of saying "If I had a magic write-all-the-code wand, here's what I would do" .. I am not requesting any changes, I am suggesting some. I'm certainly not crying over the fact that I won't be earning any isk this weekend .. but since there is no way for me to prevent some children from being petty and kicking over my sand castle, and I can't build a new one this weekend, I'll spend my precious game hours playing something else instead.
Miss Monty
Doomheim
#86 - 2013-10-27 15:30:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss Monty
People who run incursions are also aware of the terrible risk that someone (you villans) may pop the mothership and this iskcannot be relied on ahead of time.

While I applaud your honesty in 'small time, isk reward" I think that is a large part of the issue.

This thread is all spitball, no matter who coined the phrase. The forums is like a river of spit where we all voice our oh so important opinions.

As for contesting being against Eve lore, interesting but groups working for sansha to see who can lay down the most pain and reap the reward makes sense to me, usually makes less sense to those who feel more pain than create it.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#87 - 2013-10-27 15:55:36 UTC
Oh come on. I ran incursions right at the start, in lowsec no less. The only time the rats ever killed anything was when logis disconnected or someone tried to run through an HQ system solo. In highsec, you don't even have the chance for the latter to happen, and anyone who loses a ship while logis are all still alive either didn't broadcast or is an idiot.

Incursions are easy. Very, very easy. There is no risk whatsoever if you take even basic precautions, and you guys nowadays farm hard enough to make even more ISK in highsec than we ever got in low, even pre-nerf.

Anyone claiming incursions are hard is lying. Anyone claiming there is any risk in highsec incursions whatsoever is lying. It is absurdly easy ISK, you make more running those than I could pull in back when blaster ratting in null was a thing. Blaster ratting was nerfed, why should incursions be buffed?
Alice Ituin
Doomheim
#88 - 2013-10-27 15:57:02 UTC
Durka'durka Zu'lander wrote:
Miss Monty wrote:
Now I hear people say that it's about Eve players being able to participate in their chosen activity, however when the miners are killed or the industrialists ganked, or sov is lost or any of the other accepted outcomes of Eve gameplay, people are not free to carry on their chosen activities without readjusting.


In every other case that you have mentioned, it is within the victims' power to alter the outcome of their engagement. With incursions it is not. That is the entire point of this thread, and one which you have either missed or chosen to ignore. No-one is saying "boohoo we lost a contest" here, what we're saying is "if someone wants to kick over my sand castle, I should either be able to stop him or be able to build another one"


This!

It just plain sucks when you come home from work just to realize that the mom was popped again only 3 hours after DT and there is nothing you can do about it.

Imagine that every time there is some large fleet fight between sov alliances everyone's safety gets set to green until next DT, so that you can't PvP anymore. People would get mad because you steal them their content.
That's exactly what is happening with incursions atm.
Solomunio Kzenig
The Intrinsic Ones
#89 - 2013-10-27 16:01:28 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
Reading a lot and thinking along the lines of the influence bar and how that could help.

Add an influence bar specifically for the Kundalini site when it spawns the influence in the Kundalini site is at 100% and decreases as external sites are cleared. Effectively making the site unmanageable at 100%, and still extremely dangerous at 25%, and only comparable to the current site when it is at 0% , so the impetus to end the incursion is tempered by the desire to get your fleet out alive.


A genuinely interesting and good idea.....
Durka'durka Zu'lander
Zu'lander Centre For Kids Who Can't Read Good
#90 - 2013-10-27 16:03:40 UTC
Miss Monty wrote:
People who run incursions are also aware of the terrible risk that someone (you villans) may pop the mothership and this iskcannot be relied on ahead of time.

Yes, but there's nothing that I can do about it, other than plan another use for my time. I enjoy the incursion community, and enjoy logi (pref under influence) ... As I mentioned, I don't need the isk because I'm perfectly willing to pay for PLEX if I'm having fun - but I'm not paying to spend my time mining / mission for the few hours of game time that my RL affords me this weekend when I could be playing -insert your game of preference here- instead.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#91 - 2013-10-27 16:45:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldiiee
Danika Princip wrote:
Oh come on. I ran incursions right at the start, in lowsec no less. The only time the rats ever killed anything was when logis disconnected or someone tried to run through an HQ system solo. In highsec, you don't even have the chance for the latter to happen, and anyone who loses a ship while logis are all still alive either didn't broadcast or is an idiot.

Incursions are easy. Very, very easy. There is no risk whatsoever if you take even basic precautions, and you guys nowadays farm hard enough to make even more ISK in highsec than we ever got in low, even pre-nerf.

Anyone claiming incursions are hard is lying. Anyone claiming there is any risk in highsec incursions whatsoever is lying. It is absurdly easy ISK, you make more running those than I could pull in back when blaster ratting in null was a thing. Blaster ratting was nerfed, why should incursions be buffed?

Ok I’ll bite, Low sec when they started? For HQ’s you were running armor tank with an anchor running a set of slaves holding his ground with 200k+ EHP. Flying with group of PVP veterans that knew how to broadcasting like fish know how to swim, even then you had enough buffer to survive two or three full volleys.

Today were running shield tank with 80k EHP so we can field the 9 to 30 DPS ships with enough firepower to win contest against other groups flying the same, a missed broadcast will almost always end in tears. Some communities are pulling Ex-Miners into fleet with 5 mil SP in guns and they have to be shown where to click in the fleet window to broadcast (Forget about teaching them to set a hot-key) and you have them fit as much DPS as they can so you have a chance of holding onto one uncontested payout an hour.

I am sure the uphill both ways in the snow year round trudge was hard for you, but the incursions you ran and the ones being run now are not the same. Nobody's trying to pull a fast one, not asking for a buff, just a change in how the Content is closed.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Kate stark
#92 - 2013-10-27 16:52:14 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
the incursions you ran and the ones being run now are not the same.

link patch notes plz.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#93 - 2013-10-27 16:56:23 UTC
Kate stark wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
the incursions you ran and the ones being run now are not the same.

link patch notes plz.

Not talking about the spawns, I am talking about what is needed to make ISK and keep it.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Solomunio Kzenig
The Intrinsic Ones
#94 - 2013-10-27 16:58:20 UTC
Couple of 'grab bag' idea's, my own and borrowing from this thread:

- Decrease the amount by which the Influence Bar drops for the completion of each site

- Invert the payout depending on Influence, at 100% influence sites pay more than at 0%

- Make Scout sites actually worthwhile, up the ISK and LP they give out AND make them the biggest contributor to reducing Influence

- Make the appearance of the Mom random once 95% Influence is reached, on a 24 hour timer in High Sec , 12 hours in Low and immediately in Null

- Separate Influence Bar for the Mom once it appears, this is reduced by running the other sites, at 100% influence an 80 man fleet should have no hope of running the Mom site, at 25% it should still be a tricky proposition

- Sansha Frigs: apart from the Schmaeel's and the Niarja's they are pretty worthless; increase the numbers of the Schmaeels and Niarja's in the sites and make all the others web; in addition the Tama's and Renyn's AI should be tweaked to make them anti Drone ships

- Mission Sansha NPC's Tracking Disrupt so why not Incursion Sansha's also? this would seriously inconvenience the shinney fleets with their Pirate BS's (Note: this would include me as I fly mostly with DIN)
Kate stark
#95 - 2013-10-27 17:00:06 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
the incursions you ran and the ones being run now are not the same.

link patch notes plz.

Not talking about the spawns, I am talking about what is needed to make ISK and keep it.

so they are the same incursions, and your claim that they are different is completely false.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Rykki Atruin
Independant Praetorian Corp
#96 - 2013-10-27 17:00:08 UTC
So that's why I can't find any high sec incursions to run lately...

I'd like the chance to at least run more incursion sites.

+1

Semi-nomadic corp seeking new and veteran players
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#97 - 2013-10-27 17:01:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldiiee
Kate stark wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
the incursions you ran and the ones being run now are not the same.

link patch notes plz.

Not talking about the spawns, I am talking about what is needed to make ISK and keep it.

so they are the same incursions, and your claim that they are different is completely false.

Your reading comprehension low?

Then
For HQ’s you were running armor tank with an anchor running a set of slaves holding his ground with 200k+ EHP. Flying with group of PVP veterans that knew how to broadcasting like fish know how to swim, even then you had enough buffer to survive two or three full volleys.

Now
Today were running shield tank with 80k EHP so we can field the 9 to 30 DPS ships with enough firepower to win contest against other groups flying the same, a missed broadcast will almost always end in tears.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Kate stark
#98 - 2013-10-27 17:04:35 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
the incursions you ran and the ones being run now are not the same.

link patch notes plz.

Not talking about the spawns, I am talking about what is needed to make ISK and keep it.

so they are the same incursions, and your claim that they are different is completely false.

Your reading comprehension low?

Then
For HQ’s you were running armor tank with an anchor running a set of slaves holding his ground with 200k+ EHP. Flying with group of PVP veterans that knew how to broadcasting like fish know how to swim, even then you had enough buffer to survive two or three full volleys.

Now
Today were running shield tank with 80k EHP so we can field the 9 to 30 DPS ships with enough firepower to win contest against other groups flying the same, a missed broadcast will almost always end in tears.


is yours?

the sites haven't changed.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#99 - 2013-10-27 17:09:47 UTC
Kate stark wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:

Your reading comprehension low?

Then
For HQ’s you were running armor tank with an anchor running a set of slaves holding his ground with 200k+ EHP. Flying with group of PVP veterans that knew how to broadcasting like fish know how to swim, even then you had enough buffer to survive two or three full volleys.

Now
Today were running shield tank with 80k EHP so we can field the 9 to 30 DPS ships with enough firepower to win contest against other groups flying the same, a missed broadcast will almost always end in tears.


is yours?

the sites haven't changed.

OK, first of all yes they have (Google is your friend) but I wasn’t referring to the spawn change.

Second the tools necessary to ensure you win contest vs. Just complete a site has changed as groups perfect their pool of pilots.

Therefore change in mechanics and change in tactics, lots of change, everywhere change, and more change to come.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Kate stark
#100 - 2013-10-27 17:15:08 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:

Your reading comprehension low?

Then
For HQ’s you were running armor tank with an anchor running a set of slaves holding his ground with 200k+ EHP. Flying with group of PVP veterans that knew how to broadcasting like fish know how to swim, even then you had enough buffer to survive two or three full volleys.

Now
Today were running shield tank with 80k EHP so we can field the 9 to 30 DPS ships with enough firepower to win contest against other groups flying the same, a missed broadcast will almost always end in tears.


is yours?

the sites haven't changed.

OK, first of all yes they have (Google is your friend) but I wasn’t referring to the spawn change.

Second the tools necessary to ensure you win contest vs. Just complete a site has changed as groups perfect their pool of pilots.

Therefore change in mechanics and change in tactics, lots of change, everywhere change, and more change to come.


they haven't; i've checked the patch notes.
the best i can find is "After collecting a lot of valuable feedback from you guys, we decided to give the spawns more variety, without significantly altering the difficulty of any one spawn."

since you're unwilling to actually support your position we're back at: they haven't changed and your claim that they have is simply pure fiction.

contests are irrelevant to the point we're discussing. incursions have not changed.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.