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[NEWS] “Operation Highlander” documents released, implicate Federation in widespread spying
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Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#61 - 2013-10-27 13:28:00 UTC
Vikarion wrote:
Desiderya wrote:
Nothing to see here. I'm hardly surprised to see one of the limitless federal attempts of influencing other sovereign nations unveiled. After all, isn't this what they've been accused of since the very beginning of this little conflict?


No, it's what they've been accused of ever since they made contact with planets not their own.


Yes, damn those people for lifting your ancestors off the dirt and helping them spread across space, what were they thinking?

I had a realisation of delicious irony today, imagine if you had instead shared a system not with the Gallente but with your allies now, the State would never have existed, and the word Caldari would be a footnote in the history of the early days of the Empire.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#62 - 2013-10-27 13:46:05 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:

The only concession I see is that you seem to use that recent fad consisting to call Caldari Prime / Luminaire VII, "Home". Which is a trend I usually associate with Provist propaganda, since it has emerged at the same time.

If I may say so.... I hope that does not offend you.


It does surprise me, though it does not offend me. It is, without contest, the homeworld of my people. It stands to reason then that the affectionate appellation of "Home" be applied to our homeworld. I see nothing in-congruent about assigning special status and nomenclature to the planet where all Caldari can trace their roots.

Just because something started with the Provists does not necessarily make it bad.

Katrina Oniseki
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#63 - 2013-10-27 14:14:49 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Vikarion wrote:
Desiderya wrote:
Nothing to see here. I'm hardly surprised to see one of the limitless federal attempts of influencing other sovereign nations unveiled. After all, isn't this what they've been accused of since the very beginning of this little conflict?


No, it's what they've been accused of ever since they made contact with planets not their own.


Yes, damn those people for lifting your ancestors off the dirt and helping them spread across space, what were they thinking?

I had a realisation of delicious irony today, imagine if you had instead shared a system not with the Gallente but with your allies now, the State would never have existed, and the word Caldari would be a footnote in the history of the early days of the Empire.

I'm not sure if our ancestors believed us to be living 'in the dirt' at the time, sir, or that we so desperately needed uplifting. Thank you for your friendship at the time, though, whatever your intentions may have been.

I cannot thank you for 'spreading us across space', however, given the circumstances that brought about our diaspora. Perhaps you meant something other than the flight of refugees, but it's hard to think of anything else.

Perhaps you ought ask the Ni-Kunni what they think of their own erasure, and whether they feel themselves a footnote to the Amarr. I fear you may find a different answer than the one you suggest would happen to us.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2013-10-27 14:21:04 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
Perhaps you ought ask the Ni-Kunni what they think of their own erasure, and whether they feel themselves a footnote to the Amarr. I fear you may find a different answer than the one you suggest would happen to us.

Yes! Let's ask the Ni-Kunni what they think of their cultural erasure. In particular, perhaps we could ask the city-dwelling Ni-Kunni.

Oh wait.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#65 - 2013-10-27 14:39:23 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Scherezad wrote:
Perhaps you ought ask the Ni-Kunni what they think of their own erasure, and whether they feel themselves a footnote to the Amarr. I fear you may find a different answer than the one you suggest would happen to us.

Yes! Let's ask the Ni-Kunni what they think of their cultural erasure. In particular, perhaps we could ask the city-dwelling Ni-Kunni.

Oh wait.

Cultures change even when left to themselves, sir. I'm not a fan of war or conquest, but I doubt that the Cultural Deliverance that the Gallente offered us would have been less damaging than enslavement. Both have aims of forcing compliance.

I still think that it would be a good question to ask the Ni-Kunni, sarcasm aside.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#66 - 2013-10-27 14:47:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Scherezad wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Vikarion wrote:
Desiderya wrote:
Nothing to see here. I'm hardly surprised to see one of the limitless federal attempts of influencing other sovereign nations unveiled. After all, isn't this what they've been accused of since the very beginning of this little conflict?


No, it's what they've been accused of ever since they made contact with planets not their own.


Yes, damn those people for lifting your ancestors off the dirt and helping them spread across space, what were they thinking?

I had a realisation of delicious irony today, imagine if you had instead shared a system not with the Gallente but with your allies now, the State would never have existed, and the word Caldari would be a footnote in the history of the early days of the Empire.

I'm not sure if our ancestors believed us to be living 'in the dirt' at the time, sir, or that we so desperately needed uplifting. Thank you for your friendship at the time, though, whatever your intentions may have been.

I cannot thank you for 'spreading us across space', however, given the circumstances that brought about our diaspora. Perhaps you meant something other than the flight of refugees, but it's hard to think of anything else.

Perhaps you ought ask the Ni-Kunni what they think of their own erasure, and whether they feel themselves a footnote to the Amarr. I fear you may find a different answer than the one you suggest would happen to us.


Before Federal intervention the Caldari people were in an industrial age, they lived on (or around at various elevations) the surface. I never said they were "living in the dirt", more that they got off the ground, quite literally. That early assistance propelled the Caldari technologically into not only getting off Caldari Prime but setting up their first colonies, the spreading across space bit.

It's concerning that I'm having to explain this to you with a history lesson of the origins of your own ancestors.

And I believe the correct comparison would be the Ealur, not the Ni-Kunni.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#67 - 2013-10-27 14:47:47 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:

I had a realisation of delicious irony today, imagine if you had instead shared a system not with the Gallente but with your allies now, the State would never have existed, and the word Caldari would be a footnote in the history of the early days of the Empire.


Hypothetical arguments are always fantastic when you don't want to discuss actual history, eh?

One could say, imagine if the Khanid decided not ally with the Amarr against the Udorians then the Empire wouldn't exist.

You can really go on if all you want to do is daydream.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#68 - 2013-10-27 14:55:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:

I had a realisation of delicious irony today, imagine if you had instead shared a system not with the Gallente but with your allies now, the State would never have existed, and the word Caldari would be a footnote in the history of the early days of the Empire.


Hypothetical arguments are always fantastic when you don't want to discuss actual history, eh?


Oh I'm doing that too, going back to the early days of space travel and colonisation, it just strikes me as amusing when there are certain people who criticise everything the Federation does (really, they could establish galactic peace, reverse-cure death itself, and fill every stomach in the galaxy of it's fill of good nourishing food, and said people would still find a reason to complain.)

It's just nice to remind these people that for all their endless, non constructive criticism of the Federation, they should count their blessings, when you look into the hypothetical of "what could have been" I'd say those days were a rather favourable outcome for the Caldari.

Edit: Because I know someone's going to twist this, I don't mean counting their blessings as if they should suddenly and overdramatically be praising and owing their existence to the Federation. Just appreciate the situation could have been a lot worse considering the defenceless state of the Caldari at the time.

Of course, if you were to go back with hindsight, I'm not entirely sure history would repeat itself, but that's a criticism of the modern Federation and the people who run it today, and a lot fairer than the one aimed at a more idealistic and progressive people who stuck to the core values of the society they represented.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#69 - 2013-10-27 15:18:19 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:

It's just nice to remind these people that for all their endless, non constructive criticism of the Federation, they should count their blessings, when you look into the hypothetical of "what could have been" I'd say those days were a rather favourable outcome for the Caldari.


What could have been is not what actually came into being.

It was well and good before the Federation came into being between Caldari and Gallente, until it was used as a political and economic tool to browbeat Caldari corporations and colonies into submission along Gallentean ideological, cultural, political and economic lines.

Amusing that you speak of history and yet cannot differentiate between the Federation and the Gallenteans that actually did make first contact with the Caldari.


Kurilaivonen|Concern
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#70 - 2013-10-27 15:36:34 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Amusing that you speak of history and yet cannot differentiate between the Federation and the Gallenteans that actually did make first contact with the Caldari.


Caellach Marellus wrote:
Of course, if you were to go back with hindsight, I'm not entirely sure history would repeat itself, but that's a criticism of the modern Federation and the people who run it today, and a lot fairer than the one aimed at a more idealistic and progressive people who stuck to the core values of the society they represented.


Yeah you're right, I think they're completely the same..

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#71 - 2013-10-27 15:53:06 UTC
Perhaps I'm being too aggressive, sir; I apologize. You're quite right that you said 'lifted us off the ground' and not 'from the dirt.' I have some severe neurological issues and have a hard time with words - I usually have to edit a post several times before it's comprehensible, much less something I approve of. My general point is more along the lines of asking whether living on the ground is such a bad thing, and whether we wouldn't have gotten there on our own. We were on the way already, after all.

It makes me sad to think of the lost opportunities and co-operation that we could all have benefitted from, and the friendships that were lost or never formed to begin with. I only wish we would be considered equals, instead of people worthy of 'uplifting.' There are more axes to a culture's development than just technological.

As for teaching me the history of the Caldari - I'm aware of the basics, but have a very hard time with specifics. I honestly have a hard time remembering last week without significant outside assistance, so remembering that sort of esoteria is very hard! I do love a good story, though, so feel free to indulge in a little storytelling whenever you like.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#72 - 2013-10-27 16:56:28 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:

The only concession I see is that you seem to use that recent fad consisting to call Caldari Prime / Luminaire VII, "Home". Which is a trend I usually associate with Provist propaganda, since it has emerged at the same time.

If I may say so.... I hope that does not offend you.


It does surprise me, though it does not offend me. It is, without contest, the homeworld of my people. It stands to reason then that the affectionate appellation of "Home" be applied to our homeworld. I see nothing in-congruent about assigning special status and nomenclature to the planet where all Caldari can trace their roots.

Just because something started with the Provists does not necessarily make it bad.


Indeed you are right.

But it also has been used in a very obnoxious way most of the time in my experience...
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#73 - 2013-10-27 17:53:51 UTC
It's no surprise that a race that had to fight it's way up from the snows of Home was a little bit slower at technological development than a race that comes from a 'shirtsleeves' planet, is it?

I think the Caldari and Gallente did some excellent work together, in the early days, it's just a shame that they insist all their partners submit to the process of becoming exactly like them.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#74 - 2013-10-27 17:58:48 UTC
You mean, like they force every signatory state of their charter to be all an uniform tasteless mass where there is only one culture ?
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#75 - 2013-10-27 18:24:59 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
It's no surprise that a race that had to fight it's way up from the snows of Home was a little bit slower at technological development than a race that comes from a 'shirtsleeves' planet, is it?

I think the Caldari and Gallente did some excellent work together, in the early days, it's just a shame that they insist all their partners submit to the process of becoming exactly like them.

And see, there is is...

"We" didn't want "you" to be like "us".

"We" only insisted "you" play by the same rules.

Rules "you" agreed to by the way.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#76 - 2013-10-27 18:28:03 UTC
It was a good deal, until it wasn't. There should always be room to get out of a bad deal.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#77 - 2013-10-27 18:40:56 UTC
There was, Pieter. It is called secession.

They didn't like that.

Katrina Oniseki
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#78 - 2013-10-27 19:27:32 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
It was a good deal, until it wasn't. There should always be room to get out of a bad deal.


Like the Gallente with occupied Caldari Prime ?
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#79 - 2013-10-27 19:55:05 UTC
Ah, but there WAS a way out of that, Lyn. At least two that I can think of and the Federation picked the harder of the two.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#80 - 2013-10-27 20:37:23 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Ah, but there WAS a way out of that, Lyn. At least two that I can think of and the Federation picked the harder of the two.


The same could be said for the Caldari 200 years prior, it's not really an argument you can pick and choose when it applies.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.