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Senator calls Republic security threat and untrustworthy
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Marnian Veroe
National Republican Party
#61 - 2013-10-27 11:16:05 UTC
The only thing we have seen recently is about Minmatar immigrants unable to integrate themselves into their respective federal States and the Federal mindset, and then blaming it on racism and intolerance, believing to be some sort of special snowflakes in the eyes of the law - and why would they be, since even Minmatar controlled worlds and states in Federal space are not even signatories of the charter of the Federation, and thus, no members of it ? If those immigrant minorities are so eager to create dissent, why don't they go back to those non federal worlds occupied by their own kin ? The Federation was not under the obligation to hand whole planets to them after the Rebellion, and yet we did it. I do not estimate that it is pushing it too far to ask them to behave politely or get out. They are a disgrace to the majority of immigrants that mesh very well with Federal ideals and way of life.

And then, there is the sad story of the Republic itself, once an admirable government, and now behaving like an unstable child with anger issues. Do we really have to list all of their crimes since Shakor made its coup ? The hijacking of all those federal funds that were supposed to help them develop their Republic, but went instead into the building of a huge war fleet ? The support of the Elder attack on Yulai and thus allowing what happened in Luminaire and the proxy war in the aftermath ? That same proxy war that still strains our border worlds and ruins the lives of millions every day ? Stirring up minorities and social unrest after the shootout that saw the death of former prime minister Midular ? Their first incursion in Federal space, and eventually Colelie ?

And then people wonder why more and more federal voices rise against the unacceptable behaviour of that banana Republic ? If they go so well along with the Caldari, as both seem to claim these days, then why not letting them go embrace each other with all the passion they have to spend ? And then notice that they will soon enough face the exact same contentious issues with their new friends that were not so close to them as they initially thought ?

At the same time, the Amarr Empire may share obviously different social values than ourselves, but as far as I know, they have yet to breach treaties and prove honourless. Actually, one of the most prolific relationships we have had with another empire has been with them, when the Republic only proved to be a complete disaster. Maybe the Republic should keep that in mind in the future, as well as the senators that continue to think we have to woo them day after day because they are our "sole" allies.
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#62 - 2013-10-27 11:42:29 UTC
Which translates roughly into "Submit and obey your cultural and political slavemasters! If you're too much trouble, we'll just return you to your previous owners, y'hear?!"

The Republic has certainly had a bit more than just the tip in the pooch at times, I doubt anyone's denying that. Just stop pretending you haven't been as riddled with screwups as them.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#63 - 2013-10-27 13:14:12 UTC
The hell?

Gonna just not touch this one. Yeah.

EDIT: GRRR EATING MY POSTS

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#64 - 2013-10-27 13:17:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Jinari Otsito wrote:
Which translates roughly into "Submit and obey your cultural and political slavemasters! If you're too much trouble, we'll just return you to your previous owners, y'hear?!"


That's a very twisted way of putting words in someone's mouth, if I didn't know better I'd almost think you were using emotional language to substitute lack of a reasonable argument.

Here's the thing, the Federation was created as a multi racial, multi ethnic collective that has co-existed within itself for a long time, why? Because race doesn't actually matter, everyone's a Federal citizen, the genetic makeup, ancestry, rituals, what side of bed you get out of, how you like your coffee is entirely irrelevant.

Race is irrelevant, until certain people (and by no means all Matari, but the vocal standouts) came and made it relevant because they assumed it would grant them special status. When they were given nothing and treated no differently, they then brought racism in, a self fulfilling prophecy with the friction and intolerance it has created.

The irony is that for a people who speak highly of their culture, some of them are all too keen to demand another culture change theirs to accomodate them better. Would Federal citizens that migrated to the Republic have the same rights to demand the Republic's ways change to accomodate them? Course not, the likely scenario is they'd be scoffed at, their culture mocked and then told to get out.

Now of course, the Federation hasn't been perfect, or perfect to accomodate the ways of the Matari (YMMV on the definition) but it hardly was throwing the first stone in this exchange, unless accepting refugees is a bad thing.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#65 - 2013-10-27 13:29:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ava Starfire
I too want to live in a magickal nation that does no wrong (in its own opinion) where racism is nonexistent and everyone goes about their lives happily, as dictated by the status quo.

Oh, ****.

I just described Nation, didnt i?

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#66 - 2013-10-27 13:38:35 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
I too want to live in a magickal nation that does no wrong (in its own opinion) where racism is nonexistent and everyone goes about their lives happily, as dictated by the status quo.

Oh, ****.

I just described Nation, didnt i?


I don't think anyone was claiming the Federation was that, unless you're selectivly reading.. or just reading what you choose to see to make your argument.

You're better than that, Ava.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#67 - 2013-10-27 14:33:22 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Ava Starfire wrote:
I too want to live in a magickal nation that does no wrong (in its own opinion) where racism is nonexistent and everyone goes about their lives happily, as dictated by the status quo.

Oh, ****.

I just described Nation, didnt i?


I don't think anyone was claiming the Federation was that, unless you're selectivly reading.. or just reading what you choose to see to make your argument.

You're better than that, Ava.


Clearly not. I am Minmatar, rawr, etc etc

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#68 - 2013-10-27 14:57:39 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Ava Starfire wrote:
I too want to live in a magickal nation that does no wrong (in its own opinion) where racism is nonexistent and everyone goes about their lives happily, as dictated by the status quo.

Oh, ****.

I just described Nation, didnt i?


I don't think anyone was claiming the Federation was that, unless you're selectivly reading.. or just reading what you choose to see to make your argument.

You're better than that, Ava.


Clearly not. I am Minmatar, rawr, etc etc


That's racist!




.. damn.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Marnian Veroe
National Republican Party
#69 - 2013-10-27 16:42:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Marnian Veroe
Jinari Otsito wrote:
Which translates roughly into "Submit and obey your cultural and political slavemasters! If you're too much trouble, we'll just return you to your previous owners, y'hear?!"

The Republic has certainly had a bit more than just the tip in the pooch at times, I doubt anyone's denying that. Just stop pretending you haven't been as riddled with screwups as them.


If they do not want to integrate, we do not force them to come in the first place. Special snowflakism has no place in the Federation, as well as racial background which has absolutely no basis in federal law and constitution.

Everyone is a federal citizen, complying to the same laws. We encourage the development of local cultures and subcultures and people can participate in the federal multi culti as much as they want. But legislative or judicial considerations based on racial purposes has no place in the Federation. Expecting that the Federation body deals with racial consideration in mind because it's how it is done in other parts of the cluster is clearly showing a lack of knowledge on how the Federation works and on which ideals it stands.

And nobody is pretending to have been more a victim than anyone, you are the only one doing it right now, and it's really poor form and only aggravates that Minmatar victimhood syndrome.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#70 - 2013-10-27 21:49:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Anabella Rella
Lyn Farel wrote:


I am having a hard time seeing what democracy pros and cons have to do with the issue at hand.

As you said earlier, you would have preferred a call for a special meeting of the Inner Circle, which is remarkable. And yet you chose to support the resort to less than admirable methods in the end because no other way was available to you.

How far are you willing to go to fulfill your selfish wishes ? Extraordinary circumstances for extraordinary means ? Like when Ardishapur glassed Arzad Prime ? After all, the end justified the mean to him too. I am sure that you can think of many similar cases throughout History. But I guess that your own little case is "special" ? Like the Starkmanir were "special" ?

Also, in your example, the illegal act you speak of has nothing at all morally justifiable in my view, but to answer nevertheless, I would obey the law of course, or fight for it not to happen within the boundaries of that law. Why would I act differently ? I am not a slave to my primary instincts.


You conveniently disregarded the part where I said morally justifiable. There's no way that any rational person could use their injured ego as the excuse to commit genocide on a planetary scale.

As for laws, Farel, the laws are simply a way to codify that which we as a society feel to be morally acceptable or unacceptable based upon the common good and to maintain order. I was making no attempt to put words in your mouth, just making an observation.

You dare to call the saving of thousands of human lives "selfish" and attempt to paint that act as somehow wrong? You claim that you'd have blindly followed the law and allowed your kin to die. You're either a self-delusional liar, a total sociopath or a cold, inhuman monster who's become a complete slave to her god of "logic".

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2013-10-27 22:26:45 UTC
Not that I wish to speak in defence of their actions at Colelie, but given that people are suddenly talking about how grossly illegal what the Minmatar did during the Yulai Incident was, I feel a nigh-overwhelming urge to point out that there was (and for those that care, still is) no legal provision in the Federal constitution for secession. I could - from a purely legal standpoint - argue, with pretty much no possible counterargument, that by seceeding the Caldari were breaking the law and the Federation was perfectly within their rights to take whatever measures neccessary to redress this injustice.

I won't, of course. But I could.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#72 - 2013-10-27 22:29:43 UTC
Marnian Veroe wrote:

If they do not want to integrate, we do not force them to come in the first place. Special snowflakism has no place in the Federation, as well as racial background which has absolutely no basis in federal law and constitution.

Everyone is a federal citizen, complying to the same laws. We encourage the development of local cultures and subcultures and people can participate in the federal multi culti as much as they want. But legislative or judicial considerations based on racial purposes has no place in the Federation. Expecting that the Federation body deals with racial consideration in mind because it's how it is done in other parts of the cluster is clearly showing a lack of knowledge on how the Federation works and on which ideals it stands.

And nobody is pretending to have been more a victim than anyone, you are the only one doing it right now, and it's really poor form and only aggravates that Minmatar victimhood syndrome.


Kindly demonstrate, with evidence, where you see "Special Snowflakism" occurring with regards to Federal citizens of Matari origin.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#73 - 2013-10-27 22:33:09 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Not that I wish to speak in defence of their actions at Colelie, but given that people are suddenly talking about how grossly illegal what the Minmatar did during the Yulai Incident was, I feel a nigh-overwhelming urge to point out that there was (and for those that care, still is) no legal provision in the Federal constitution for secession. I could - from a purely legal standpoint - argue, with pretty much no possible counterargument, that by seceeding the Caldari were breaking the law and the Federation was perfectly within their rights to take whatever measures neccessary to redress this injustice.

I won't, of course. But I could.


There is no justification for seceding from your legal overlord?

Unless you succeed.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2013-10-27 22:35:40 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
There is no justification for seceding from your legal overlord?

Unless you succeed.

So every single action the Minmatar have ever taken against the Amarr is jusitified, as long as it didn't fail?

Thank you for clarifying.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#75 - 2013-10-27 22:42:28 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
There is no justification for seceding from your legal overlord?

Unless you succeed.

So every single action the Minmatar have ever taken against the Amarr is jusitified, as long as it didn't fail?

Thank you for clarifying.


I'd say so, yes.

It's much the same as how Tibus Heth was a dissident until he succeeded to be an Executor, and then a dissident and a traitor both when he failed his people.

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#76 - 2013-10-27 22:48:21 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
There is no justification for seceding from your legal overlord?

Unless you succeed.

So every single action the Minmatar have ever taken against the Amarr is jusitified, as long as it didn't fail?

Thank you for clarifying.


I think you need to compare what I actually wrote against the phrase "Everything you do is okay so long as it doesn't fail."

Hint: They aren't the same.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Isis Dea
Society of Adrift Hope
#77 - 2013-10-28 02:38:54 UTC
Oh Federation… Getting smarter now; wiser.

Only you won't do anything about it. As usual.

More Character Customization :: Especially compared to what we had in 2003...
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#78 - 2013-10-28 20:53:33 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:

You conveniently disregarded the part where I said morally justifiable. There's no way that any rational person could use their injured ego as the excuse to commit genocide on a planetary scale.


I disregarded nothing.

You have always had a hard time grasping the concept of cultural relativism.

I could also say that there is no way that any rational person could use their injured victimhood syndrome as an excuse to murder countless Ammatar, destroy their infrastructure and lives to save a few special people done on a purely emotional basis.

That is the point you missed. I was not trying to justify morally the genocide of the starkmanir - and even to Amarrian standards what the Ardishapur heir did was only proof of his personal failure towards his Holder duty - but I was pointing out that the assault on Halturzhan was not much different when threading on ends justifying the means.

But to some people saving a few and sacrifying strangers in Jarizza in the bargain is morally justifiable apparently, as much as sacrifying a tribe on Starkmanir Prime was morally justifiable in the eyes of God for the stability of the region and the lives of other slaves that could be tempted to do the same.

Anabella Rella wrote:
As for laws, Farel, the laws are simply a way to codify that which we as a society feel to be morally acceptable or unacceptable based upon the common good and to maintain order. I was making no attempt to put words in your mouth, just making an observation.


Your definition is incomplete, since cultural relativism trumps common good, making common good only good for a specific culture.

In the Amarr Empire, stability and knowing one's place is common good, which arguably leaded to Arzad Prime.

In the Minmatar Republic, the safety of one's kin at the expense of others is common good.

Which one is better ? The one sacrifying slavestock in the name of stability or the one sacrifying foreigners in the name of kin safety ? The end result is the same eventually.

Anabella Rella wrote:
You dare to call the saving of thousands of human lives "selfish" and attempt to paint that act as somehow wrong? You claim that you'd have blindly followed the law and allowed your kin to die.


I do not dare to call the saving of thousands human lives selfish, I dare to call the saving of thousands at the expense of a whole planet and probably a whole region, is selfish.

Anabella Rella wrote:
You're either a self-delusional liar, a total sociopath or a cold, inhuman monster who's become a complete slave to her god of "logic".


To me you clearly are the inhuman monster here.
Marnian Veroe
National Republican Party
#79 - 2013-10-28 21:14:48 UTC
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
Marnian Veroe wrote:

If they do not want to integrate, we do not force them to come in the first place. Special snowflakism has no place in the Federation, as well as racial background which has absolutely no basis in federal law and constitution.

Everyone is a federal citizen, complying to the same laws. We encourage the development of local cultures and subcultures and people can participate in the federal multi culti as much as they want. But legislative or judicial considerations based on racial purposes has no place in the Federation. Expecting that the Federation body deals with racial consideration in mind because it's how it is done in other parts of the cluster is clearly showing a lack of knowledge on how the Federation works and on which ideals it stands.

And nobody is pretending to have been more a victim than anyone, you are the only one doing it right now, and it's really poor form and only aggravates that Minmatar victimhood syndrome.


Kindly demonstrate, with evidence, where you see "Special Snowflakism" occurring with regards to Federal citizens of Matari origin.


I am afraid that you did not understand my point.

I claimed that some minorities try endlessly to be subject to special snowflakism, as shown in that conflict opposing minorities claiming racial bias on the behalf of Federal Institutions, and the result of the ensuing inquiry.

There was also the case of that Matari student that complained that federal universities do not include a special service taking account his racial origins. It was of pretty poor taste in my opinion.
Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#80 - 2013-10-29 00:17:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Darkefyre
Marnian Veroe wrote:

I am afraid that you did not understand my point.

I claimed that some minorities try endlessly to be subject to special snowflakism, as shown in that conflict opposing minorities claiming racial bias on the behalf of Federal Institutions, and the result of the ensuing inquiry.

There was also the case of that Matari student that complained that federal universities do not include a special service taking account his racial origins. It was of pretty poor taste in my opinion.


I think you'll find that the Minmatar student in question believed that her status as a Brutor HAD been taken into account by Minmatar members of the university's staff from a different tribal background. That was the entire problem and basis for her suit.

To me that would suggest the student simply wished to be treated equally, like any other Federal citizen. To use an example from my home system, would the situation have been any different if, say a Jing Ko student were blocked from studying Business Management by a Sang Do official because his caste is meant to be workers, not managers?

Let me also quote the Senate report that you linked:-

“While the committee discovered incidents of discrimination against individuals of all racial and ethnic backgrounds, including those of Minmatar descent, these cases appeared to be isolated and were swiftly resolved once brought to the attention of authorities,”

From this, we can gather that cases of discrimination do exist. It's not just in the minds of those making the claims. However, it's to the Federation's credit that the cases are resolved swiftly once brought to the attention of the proper authorities. Has it gotten worse since the Broteau shootings? Given the recent reports of retaliatory violence being targeted against the Minmatar community, the answer must be yes.

Sadly, these people are often paying the price for the knee-jerk reactions of the Republic at the moment. They are seeing issues affecting Matari within the cluster and their first reaction always seems to be "SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!" instead of questioning whether it is appropriate for the Republic to get involved.