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[Rubicon] Electronic Attack Ships

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Lidia Caderu
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#481 - 2013-10-23 11:04:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Lidia Caderu
Keres:
How about instead of this:

Electronic Attack Ships Bonuses:
15% bonus to warp disruptor range per level (+5% per level)
10% reduction in warp disruptor capacitor need per level

give this:

Electronic Attack Ships Bonuses:
15% bonus to warp disruptor range per level (+5% per level)
5% reduced capacitor recharge time

will be much more efficient with small bonus change
Kibitt Kallinikov
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#482 - 2013-10-26 10:19:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Kibitt Kallinikov
Delete please? It posted an awkward quote only post.
Kibitt Kallinikov
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#483 - 2013-10-26 10:19:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Kibitt Kallinikov
CCP Rise wrote:
Okay I've updated the OP with the newest iteration.

Highlights include:
  • Bonuses adjusted for Kitsune, Keres and Hyena to shorten the range slightly for each
  • Mass increased for all four by 10%
  • Lowered lock range to match t1 disruption frigs
  • Lowered signature radius for all four
  • Small adjustments to maxvelocity for some and drone bandwidth tweaks for Sentinel and Keres

    • Two main things going on.

    First, lowering the ewar ranges should draw them in a bit closer to the fight. The Kitsune will still be the longest effective range EAF but that's natural to ECM and there's not much more we can do. It was limited before only by the absurdly low lock range and while I don't want it to be out at 100k being effective, there's also no sensible way to pull it closer than this, but I think that's fine.

    Second, adding mass and making some maxvelocity changes while also lowering their sig radius should make them easier to catch for frigs and other anti-support, while also increasing their survivability vs larger targets trying to shoot them from far away. This helps push them towards a more recon-ish play style and further from interceptors, which is what we want.

    I expect that those of you hoping to use these will be a little disappointed, while those of expecting to fight against them might not think this is enough. Hopefully that means we are fairly close to a good spot for them. Regardless, please let me know what you think.


    It's nice that you're bringing them in a bit, but one of the issues with these frigates is found in the Hyena: It has good range, nice speed, but there is no real reason to have the 3rd high slot, and the ship has fitting space issues. If it had a 5th mid, it could put up an actual shield tank on some fits, whereas speed tankers or the like would use that mid for another web, a long point, or a Target Painter. Instead, you're left with MWD + 2-3x Web, optional long point (but why fly webz in a gang when you're near point range if you don't have a warp disruptor?)

    Disruption ships are valued for much more than their form of "disruption". For instance, the Bhaalgorn is used often, and it certainly wouldn't be if it didn't have the tank that it had. It would just be too expensive for something that is supposed to suck the energy out of enemy ships but pops instantly. These frigates DO tend to pop instantly, so they are like Combat Recon ships with no damage bonuses, similar range with usually less EWAR strength, little fitting space, and almost no tank. What do they get for it? Well, they get to be frigates. Smaller sig, more scan resolution (can be changed by SeBo's on Recon) somewhat faster (does frigate speed matter to a Rapier? Probably not). On top of this, consider how the Arbitrator is flown. It has drones to fight and kill its enemies with, but it is not a clone of the Vexor because the Vexor can field more drone power than the Arbitrator can, and the Vexor sports greater fitting stats, allowing it to have greater tank and DPS. This is how I think almost all EWAR ships should be - ships that sacrifice parts of the ship's electronics and powergrid to use more advanced electronic and engineering equipment. Another good is example is the Bellicose compared to the Caracal. In this case, the ships are extremely similar except the Caracal has better range, but the Bellicose can TP for better application on smaller targets.

    EDIT: What exactly did CCP have in mind when the EAS class was made?
    Harvey James
    The Sengoku Legacy
    #484 - 2013-10-26 11:47:57 UTC
    i agree with the above's posts sentiments these should be mini recon frigate versions with more focus the shorter secondary e-war and become like e-war assault frigs like recons are too HAC's

    T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

    ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

    Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
    Catherine Laartii
    Doomheim
    #485 - 2013-10-26 19:45:24 UTC
    I had hoped at some point they'd rebalance caldari t2 ewar boats to use target painters, as they're more directly applicable to missiles, and the other races get 2 bonuses. Sadly, this will probably not come to pass.
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #486 - 2013-10-28 09:55:48 UTC
    Catherine Laartii wrote:
    I had hoped at some point they'd rebalance caldari t2 ewar boats to use target painters, as they're more directly applicable to missiles, and the other races get 2 bonuses. Sadly, this will probably not come to pass.



    wnat to get our TargetPaitner bonuses on the CREcon Cruisers? Feel free. Just give us ANY bonus on its place. Even lasers usa bonus woudl be better :/

    TP bonus is nearly wasted when you ahve a web bonus as well, because the web will always have precedence.

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    Urkhan Law
    Black Rebel Rifter Club
    The Devil's Tattoo
    #487 - 2013-10-28 15:03:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Urkhan Law
    Enough with the TPs. Just remove all TP bonus from ALL ships, and buff TPs.
    Despite being a *force multiplier* of some sort, designing ships around TPs ends up in a complete disaster most of the time (poor vigil).
    elitatwo
    Zansha Expansion
    #488 - 2013-10-29 15:15:44 UTC
    Urkhan Law wrote:
    Enough with the TPs. Just remove all TP bonus from ALL ships, and buff TPs.
    Despite being a *force multiplier* of some sort, designing ships around TPs ends up in a complete disaster most of the time (poor vigil).


    But don't forget if you "pinned" your target down with your webs and paint them, missile boats will rejoice and can do real harm.

    I think webbs + painters work great in tandem

    Eve Minions is recruiting.

    This is the law of ship progression!

    Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #489 - 2013-10-29 15:31:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
    Urkhan Law wrote:
    Enough with the TPs. Just remove all TP bonus from ALL ships, and buff TPs.
    Despite being a *force multiplier* of some sort, designing ships around TPs ends up in a complete disaster most of the time (poor vigil).



    beign a force multiplier doe snto mean its good. Multiply your force by 0 and you wont be in a good place :P


    And No webs do not go well with painters. They fight for same slots, and a second web is 99.9% of time better than a painter.


    Also the paintere range bonus is STUPID, because the hyena will operate in the range limit of its WEB range, that is already inside the normal painter range.



    Just remove the fake paitner range bonus.. and give us 5% more cowbell per level!

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    Alghara
    Les chevaliers de l'ordre
    Goonswarm Federation
    #490 - 2013-10-30 14:47:05 UTC
    still no news about "tracking disruptors" and missile.

    When tracking disruptors will be some effect on missile
    Lunkwill Khashour
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #491 - 2013-10-30 19:15:49 UTC
    Alghara wrote:
    still no news about "tracking disruptors" and missile.

    When tracking disruptors will be some effect on missile


    The basic answer is: when tracking computers work for missiles, queue the flames
    Kibitt Kallinikov
    Stimulus
    Rote Kapelle
    #492 - 2013-10-31 02:25:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Kibitt Kallinikov
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    Urkhan Law wrote:
    Enough with the TPs. Just remove all TP bonus from ALL ships, and buff TPs.
    Despite being a *force multiplier* of some sort, designing ships around TPs ends up in a complete disaster most of the time (poor vigil).



    beign a force multiplier doe snto mean its good. Multiply your force by 0 and you wont be in a good place :P


    And No webs do not go well with painters. They fight for same slots, and a second web is 99.9% of time better than a painter.


    Also the paintere range bonus is STUPID, because the hyena will operate in the range limit of its WEB range, that is already inside the normal painter range.



    Just remove the fake paitner range bonus.. and give us 5% more cowbell per level!


    The Target Painter range bonus is quite pointless, but I wouldn't say that the module itself is bad. A reason I can think of is that a Target Painter skews tracking/similar issues whereas Stasis Webifiers simply lowers maxvelocity. In truth, Target Painters are best used in tandem with webifiers rather than by themselves, which leads to the problem that you need a web, hence web is "better".

    As for the Hyena's ship bonuses, I would swap them around a bit.

    Minmatar Frigate Bonuses:
    10% bonus to Missile velocity per level (was MWD capacitor use)
    10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level

    Electronic Attack Ships Bonuses:
    40% bonus to stasis webifier range per level (+20% per level)
    5% bonus to Missile damage per level (was signature radius reduction)


    Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 1(-1) turrets, 3(+1) launchers
    Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km(+30km) / 700 (+100) / 7
    Signature radius: 35 [was 39(-12)] <- I boiled the sig bonus into the hull but not for its full value.

    Now, the missile damage bonus seems dubious, but I think that the Hyena, lacking any form of defense save for its superior signature tanking when compared to other EAS, could use a bit more OOMPH [59 LML DPS with the bonuses]. It's still less than a Condor, and the Breacher has drones in addition to similar signature tanking as the Hyena (just with active tank as well instead of EWAR that Hyena has) and since the damage is on the EAS skill, it doesn't get that damage instantly. WHY? All other EAS have multiple layers of defense save for the Hyena. As a webifier frigate, people expect (probably CCP, too) that it will carry a long point on it and thus is bound within 24km or so of its target, but it does not enjoy the triple defense of Neutralizer, Tracking Disruptor, and slightly inferior speed tank of the Sentinel, nor the extended range of the DIsruptor or Damp of the Keres, and it most certainly can't jam people for anything. Considering that the Keres has more mid slots to apply its EWAR, I consider this to be a fair trade - If I cannot have safety in my EWAR, then I demand offense on par with that of the Sentinel.
    Tsukinosuke
    Id Est
    RAZOR Alliance
    #493 - 2013-11-01 13:14:13 UTC
    Lidia Caderu wrote:
    Keres:
    How about instead of this:

    Electronic Attack Ships Bonuses:
    15% bonus to warp disruptor range per level (+5% per level)
    10% reduction in warp disruptor capacitor need per level

    give this:

    Electronic Attack Ships Bonuses:
    15% bonus to warp disruptor range per level (+5% per level)
    5% reduced capacitor recharge time

    will be much more efficient with small bonus change


    if it was an amarr ship..


    also i like the improvements, o7

    anti-antagonist "not a friend of enemy of antagonist"
    elitatwo
    Zansha Expansion
    #494 - 2013-11-02 09:23:07 UTC
    Tsukinosuke wrote:


    if it was an amarr ship..




    Yea, about the Amarr...

    The Sentinel is a tiny bit to powerful for her size. I mean 3 small neuts with 30km range will slowy murder every boat that doesn't have missiles or autocannons and will make those pilots rage when thier boats slowy die of 4 drones.

    Eve Minions is recruiting.

    This is the law of ship progression!

    Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
    Ama Zing
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #495 - 2013-11-03 13:39:54 UTC
    elitatwo wrote:
    Tsukinosuke wrote:


    if it was an amarr ship..




    Yea, about the Amarr...

    The Sentinel is a tiny bit to powerful for her size. I mean 3 small neuts with 30km range will slowy murder every boat that doesn't have missiles or autocannons and will make those pilots rage when thier boats slowy die of 4 drones.



    Powerful is the sentinel at 90 km range ruining 3 ships tracking. If it's in neut range it's vulnerable to missiles and drones. To sit and wait for the sentinels drones to eat me up is also bad tactique. Killing the drones is much better imho.

    Every change in this game puts pressure on pilots to find a counter method. Believe me, it's just a matter of time. A Hyena can be jammed for example, no matter how fast that beast goes. Be creative in PVP.
    Lady Rift
    His Majesty's Privateers
    #496 - 2013-11-03 21:34:02 UTC
    Ama Zing wrote:
    elitatwo wrote:
    Tsukinosuke wrote:


    if it was an amarr ship..




    Yea, about the Amarr...

    The Sentinel is a tiny bit to powerful for her size. I mean 3 small neuts with 30km range will slowy murder every boat that doesn't have missiles or autocannons and will make those pilots rage when thier boats slowy die of 4 drones.



    Powerful is the sentinel at 90 km range ruining 3 ships tracking. If it's in neut range it's vulnerable to missiles and drones. To sit and wait for the sentinels drones to eat me up is also bad tactique. Killing the drones is much better imho.

    Every change in this game puts pressure on pilots to find a counter method. Believe me, it's just a matter of time. A Hyena can be jammed for example, no matter how fast that beast goes. Be creative in PVP.



    Powerful is the sentinel at 90 km range ruining 3 ships tracking, you mean the same as a the T1 ship.
    Phoenix Jones
    Small-Arms Fire
    #497 - 2013-11-04 18:58:14 UTC
    The Sentinel Dronebay might be a little.... large...

    Thats three different flights of drones for a ship to deal with... Dronebays bigger than the tristan, ishkur, etc.

    I am not saying shrink the dronebay, I'm saying is that the Gallente tend to be more of the drone specialist. I havent' heard much about the Keres kicking @ss.. Everybodys expecting the Sentinel to mow everything over.

    Just a little food for thought.

    Yaay!!!!
    Enthes goldhart
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #498 - 2013-11-04 19:46:06 UTC
    Because EAF's dont **** me off enough when running solo.....
    AnJuan Jackson
    Red Star Trading Corporation
    #499 - 2013-11-05 01:30:03 UTC
    Can I just bring up that since when is a laser pointer considered electronic warfare?

    Always felt the Minmatar got shafted when the CCP Gods were handing that out. Yay Target painters.

    Though the double Statsis webbed Loki was the only redeeming thing to that trend. Thank you for that. Because if we got stuck with target painters I'd completely give up on the minnies.
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #500 - 2013-11-05 09:14:47 UTC
    AnJuan Jackson wrote:
    Can I just bring up that since when is a laser pointer considered electronic warfare?

    Always felt the Minmatar got shafted when the CCP Gods were handing that out. Yay Target painters.

    Though the double Statsis webbed Loki was the only redeeming thing to that trend. Thank you for that. Because if we got stuck with target painters I'd completely give up on the minnies.



    Not only that, but on ships with the web bonus, the painter bonuses are irrelevant, because adding another web will be better in 95% of scenarios.

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"