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New dev blog: Anomalies revisited

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Author
Mrs Troutslayer
Internet Spaceship Gamers
Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll
#201 - 2011-11-17 17:28:41 UTC
Mograthi wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


This wasn't changed as part of this project, this was changed as part of a bugfix. They're both going out in Crucible, so the timing's pretty unfortunate, but it's a separate issue. And again, the amount of money being made in this way was way higher than intended, that's part of the reason for making the change in the first place (the other part being that it was possible to totally break the site, of course).


I will buy that it is a bug fix occurring at an unfortunate time.

This doesn't resolve the perception that you are nerfing or ignoring the drone anomalies at the same time you buff the bounty rat anomalies. I realize that it is harder to balance the drone ones in line with the bounty ones due to the fact that the reward is reliant on the market price of minerals and poo but i would hope that some attempt is made before deployment.




If I had not read tread this particular thread I wold not have know about this "bugfix". It really should be in a Devblog or somewhere it can be seen. That is if you really want know what the reception to this change will be. Or was it gonna just get buried in the patch notes somewhere. The backlash from a large portion of the community (anyone living in drone space) will be huge. So far the rabble has been contained to this one thread but there will be no hiding it on patch day. Better to take your lumps now if your going through with this change to Horde spawn mechanic.... It seems like such a small tweak on paper, but the income change to individual players will be huge.
Avila Cracko
#202 - 2011-11-17 17:36:31 UTC
mkint wrote:
Avila Cracko wrote:
Question for CCP:

Are you going to do anything to help mineral market in EVE???

prices or minerals are at bottom... and there is too much mineral faucets in EVE...
that's hurting all industry in EVE, ship and modules diversity in EVE and EVE itself...
Look at drones and tell me how isn't it wrong that raven is better miner then any miner... how is it logic that more minerals in EVE is coming from killing things then from mining...
how is logic that you get more materials to build a plane by shooting a plane than by mining???
Re-balance eve a little...
And stop killing industry in EVE... and with it EVE itself...

And... you know... EVE is not only pew-pew...
read and not pew-pew ppl opinions...
and so something for them sometimes...

Mineral faucets have been DECREASED over the past year. You're missing the other side of the equation. Sinks.

There's nothing in EVE worth fighting over, so people are not fighting, so minerals are not being destroyed, so supply is outpacing demand, so prices are dropping.


These days ppl everything calling "DECREASE"...
Yea... when you lower the price of apartment from 300.000€ to 299.999€ its still DECREASE in price... Roll

truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Grim Savage
suspended animations DOT
None Of The Above
#203 - 2011-11-17 17:41:59 UTC
Mograthi wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Drone region anomalies weren't touched as part of this specific project - we're just balancing on bounty payout this time around and as drones don't have a bounty, we still don't have the tools to properly assess their worth.


Not exactly true there dude. The change to the bunker horde does amount to a Nerf for those of us in the drone regions.

Just some numbers from my personal experience,

When i am being slow and casual i can do 3 of the bunker hordes an hour and when I am in grind mode i can manage 4 an hour, many of my corp mates can do the same numbers. On an average we can earn 30 million per horde with the poo droppings, so we are averaging 90 - 120 mil an hour. With the change on SISI, we can on average do 2 of these an hour now for 60 mil an hour since the drops were not increased. This means that we are taking a 30% to 50% Nerf in income per hour whilst all the bounty rat regions are getting a buff in isk per hour.

Now I am fine with the change to the horde as it was kind of silly to begin with, but really you should modify the loot table at the same time to account for the change. Unlike many in the area I would be perfectly happy if you changed the drones to be bounty rats, my security status could use in an increase so I can use all those shiny new tier 3 BC's to gank miners with.






If you make 90mill an hour doing anomalies, and it is nerfed to 60, then I would say they did not swing the nerf bat hard enough.

This thing should be nerfed to get in line with regular sanctums.
RaZor Flash
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#204 - 2011-11-17 17:48:00 UTC  |  Edited by: RaZor Flash
CCP Greyscale wrote:


I asked people to stick to the feedback thread in no small part because I'd already responded to your earlier post here requesting specific examples so I could better understand the problem :)

Yes, theoretically if we put 10,000 battleships in a site it would be uncompleteable, but we haven't done that. If you can tell us what actual sites you've tested with what actual setups and ships, then we can look into it further. For example, when you're talking about adding ships to the first wave, there's only a limited number of dungeons that was done to - in most cases we did simple substitution so this problem won't manifest, and I'm guessing this isn't a problem for the lower-end sites because they shouldn't be that difficult even with these changes, so it's probably one or two specific dungeons that we can potentially troubleshoot rather than a universal problem.

(The reason waves are added to the beginning of rooms is mainly because it makes the changes easier and therefore faster to do and less likely to break, but it's also I think true that your PvP risk increases as your time in the site increases, so frontloading the PvE danger seems safer overall. In any case, it's not like anyone's consistently running sites that have a reasonable chance of killing them anyway, so while I agree in principle and in isolation an escalating difficulty makes sense, in practice we believe it has minimal impact on the actual play experience.)


Ahh I checked the dev posts, and I didnt' see it, so my fault on that. I also wasn't sure where to post my feedback thus my petition to ask a GM. (They directed me to test server feedback). This was a threadnaught of congrats without actual testing. I have been testing on sisi and running different anoms. Also I see your post on this thread referring to me.

Okay, so I'll give the spoilers to my money making scheme since its clearly going to be changed.

I run an abaddon with triple faction heat sink., mega pulse IIs doing blood raider forsaken hubs all day. I can chain them and earn great isk/hour. Providing of course that someone doesn't break them, I have low competition for them, and goons are not cloaky camping my system. 29-30 mil cycles every 20 minutes not including faction spawns (if i put my a-game on). I have enough isk that I do them leisurely for 27ish. The dead space escalations are a total waste of time because the effort to do them and the traveling is simply not worth the time even assuming you get a 900 mil + reward.

The only setup better is a navy geddon, with tech 2 sentries, that earns 31-32.

I figured how to put as much gank and least tank on my battleship to survive the anomalies. I have to kill the ships fast or else they will break my tank, but I kill them so quickly due to a couple of 20 mil implants and faction heatsinks my tank can hold out.

With the changes, it is simply not possible for me to tank these anymore without suffering a massive damage loss. Which leads to my complaints that these changes are nerfing my isk making.

If you leave these the changes in I will simply change to a "weaker" anomaly where I essentially can do the same thing to a lesser degree, I will have to buy a couple deadspace mods. ISK:EHP is only one factor, the DPS of your ship is another.

I already tested my new anomaly to chain and with a couple of changes I should be able to solo it. This will simply mean that systems with a true sec of -(.4-.5) will be pretty awesome.

Maybe you didn't intend for player to make this much isk/hour in a solo ship. This is only able to be done since May 19th 2011 when you made a changes to the scanner (Awesome change btw).

Edit:
All that I really want changed is to have Forsaken Hubs not have that massive spawn of battleships/hacs initially or ever. If possible make them into waves.
Once you get to 7-8 BS+ 7-8 hacs its simply too much damage, on top of which I haven't found the trigger quite yet for the next spawn, so i had around 10-11 maybe 12 bs and a bunch of hacs on me. That is a ton of damage being dealt for a hub.

The idea that "I think true that your PvP risk increases as your time in the site increases" What!? How do you come to this conclusion this make no sense.

Escalations: You have to travel 5-8 jumps for first stage, then 5-8 jumps next stage, then another 5-8 jumps for final stage. You could end up 24 jumps from your home system. That is simply ridiculous.
Edit 2:
Lastly. I have really good skills (almost perfect), I use implants and I have pretty much perfected this method of making isk. When I started out I was getting 15-17, after some refinement and talking with corpmates we ended up with our current 30 mil cycles. This happened over a few months of testing and experimenting. We have tried all different ships, mods, etc. I know there will be a bit of learning curve for the new stuff, which is fine, but double the battleships was "shocking" to say the least.

Edit 3: I will make more isk in a "worse" anomaly because I can put out more dps and require less of a tank.
Mrs Troutslayer
Internet Spaceship Gamers
Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll
#205 - 2011-11-17 18:29:59 UTC
[/quote]

If you make 90mill an hour doing anomalies, and it is nerfed to 60, then I would say they did not swing the nerf bat hard enough.

This thing should be nerfed to get in line with regular sanctums.[/quote]

But these really should pay more per hour than regular sanctums if you want it it to be fair and equal. Figure in the time moving the alloys to market or building stuff / updating market orders of said stuff and that raw isk / hour number goes way down. Regular sanctums give you instant isk, you don't even have to have a salvage partner of go back and salvage yourself. Just kill rats, 20 minutes later you have isk in your wallet. Unless you've lived in drone space you can't fully appreciate the logistics of "making isk" in drone space. Sure individuals with a good logistical backbone may find it easy if there are buy orders up for alloys, but someone is putting in the time to do something with all that drone poo to convert it to isk.
BigCountry
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#206 - 2011-11-17 18:36:27 UTC
Ok Greyscale I hate to do it , cuz it might not be your fault but I gotta call "BS" ... If this was some bugfix taht has been needed then why back a year ago when you moved the warp-in point from being on top of bunkers to 30km away , why didnt you make this change then ??? This is nothing but a slap in the face to those that live in the drone regions ... not all of us are botters ... alot of us just like the relaxed renting atmosphere from the russians...

And maybe you could make 120mil an hour doing the hordes, but that isnt accurate... cuz that does not figure in the time it takes to move this stuff around to sell it ...

So again regardless of intent.... the drone regions just got nerfed hardcore... plus ,didnt greyscale say that the most profitable anomalies were the sanctums ? How much do each of those bring in??

So to stay on topic--- CCP when you revisited the drone hordes - you killed them..
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#207 - 2011-11-17 18:44:29 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Magic Crisp wrote:
My issue with the current distrubution is, that the systems have usually 1 or 2 anoms worth running, and the rest are highsec trash. After upgrading to lvl4-5, you can have forlorn hubs, which are starting to be decent, and the havens/sanctums are waaaay better than any other sites. Is that possible that every 00 system gets less of the highsec trash anoms, we we actually get a somewhat better sites? If a system is above -0.2 it needs like lvl5 upgrade to get a single forlorn hub, which will be the only sites worths running. The rest are wasted time. The sites distributed seems like a "lots of unworthy trash + 1 worthy" site, though it can be up to 3-4 sites worth running in systems below -0.8. So we have like 20 anoms, people are running 1 to 3 out of them.


Forsaken Rally Point comes in about 5% worse than Forlorn Hub in the new system, and Hidden Rally Point and one of the Hub sites are probably down 10%. (Forlorn Hub is now on par with the two Haven sites, for reference)


I'm not sure I understand exactly what you are trying to say here. Could you give a proper breakdown of the changes to the sites, with reference to the current system.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.

pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#208 - 2011-11-17 18:59:02 UTC
hey drone region dudes


welcome to the isk/hour of the rest of eve, nobody feels sorry for you

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Temmu Guerra
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#209 - 2011-11-17 19:01:52 UTC
Can drones just get isk bounties. When I was out in Omist (angel space) i would still salvage all the wrecks as that was extra isk i did not want to let to go to waste but my move out to the drone regions I now HAVE to salvage in order to make isk. I chain hordes with 2 carriers + a noctis and it can take me about 15 to 20 mins to clear the horde + salvage it on my 3 accounts. With 2 carriers in omist I could make about 45 mill with bounties (compared to the 29 to 30 that ppl have referred to for the hordes) and that was WITHOUT salvaging. With the lack of salvaging I could chain them faster and therefore increase my isk per hour ratio as I was able to complete more within that hour.

So in short Greyscale either change the way the horde spawns or atleast give us bounties. Give us something that is reasonable so we can make isk. All I want to do is buy ships to blow up in pvp ;)


And no I am not a russian botter Twisted
Mograthi
#210 - 2011-11-17 19:02:10 UTC
Grim Savage wrote:
If you make 90mill an hour doing anomalies, and it is nerfed to 60, then I would say they did not swing the nerf bat hard enough.

This thing should be nerfed to get in line with regular sanctums.



Thing is when I lived in fountain I could make the same 90 mil an hour running sanctums (1 ring sanctum finished every tick = 30 * 3 for 90 mil in bounties per hour), so they already were in line with sanctums. Now the sanctums are going to be buffed so more isk in bounties is made. If you cant make 90 mil an hour currently in sanctums you are doing something horribly wrong.
Elanor Vega
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#211 - 2011-11-17 19:06:01 UTC
Avila Cracko wrote:
Question for CCP:

Are you going to do anything to help mineral market in EVE???

prices or minerals are at bottom... and there is too much mineral faucets in EVE...
that's hurting all industry in EVE, ship and modules diversity in EVE and EVE itself...
Look at drones and tell me how isn't it wrong that raven is better miner then any miner... how is it logic that more minerals in EVE is coming from killing things then from mining...
how is logic that you get more materials to build a plane by shooting a plane than by mining???
Re-balance eve a little...
And stop killing industry in EVE... and with it EVE itself...

And... you know... EVE is not only pew-pew...
read and not pew-pew ppl opinions...
and so something for them sometimes...



Fully supported...

Signed.
2manno Asp
Death By Design
#212 - 2011-11-17 19:09:06 UTC
isk/hour... bleh. no one enjoys grinding. on top of that, this looks like it will best server the bot industry.

more zombies bs's/bc's simply = more boredom

please add a new ccp dev position: the fun dev. threads like this highlight how sorely a position like that is needed.
Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#213 - 2011-11-17 19:45:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Evelgrivion
Tanya Powers wrote:
You can take offence of whatever you want, no one playing this game now for at least one year will ever believe high sec is where isk flows.

Your opinion about high sec missioning and high sec isk flow is totally non sense. Every other argument you may add is null since the first one is the biggest lie you stated.

You want to reduce the isk flow in game?

Where it starts:
-change how moon goo works, make it deplete, make it like PI, random respawn
-take drone alloys out of the game
-change how corporations/alliances finances work - it's their players that should be rich not the corporation it self

Where it ends.

Once this is done come back in one year and tell again high sec is where isk flows. You can argue whatever, no one playing the game for a while can seriously consider your statements.


Congratulations; the point went 100% over your head.

This is about ISK and the creation thereof. Moons and alloys do not create ISK.
S8nt
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#214 - 2011-11-17 20:16:48 UTC
Evelgrivion wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
You can take offence of whatever you want, no one playing this game now for at least one year will ever believe high sec is where isk flows.

Your opinion about high sec missioning and high sec isk flow is totally non sense. Every other argument you may add is null since the first one is the biggest lie you stated.

You want to reduce the isk flow in game?

Where it starts:
-change how moon goo works, make it deplete, make it like PI, random respawn
-take drone alloys out of the game
-change how corporations/alliances finances work - it's their players that should be rich not the corporation it self

Where it ends.

Once this is done come back in one year and tell again high sec is where isk flows. You can argue whatever, no one playing the game for a while can seriously consider your statements.


Congratulations; the point went 100% over your head.

This is about ISK and the creation thereof. Moons and alloys do not create ISK.


Well, now that the fuel is easier for towers, this does become a possibility. The balance in this game tbh is totally fscked and CCP doesn't seem to see it. Between 3 of us we have suspended 52 accounts cause mining is so crap. I am coasting on one account in the hope that CCP wakes up and see what is happening to mining and money in this game.
Riovane
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#215 - 2011-11-17 20:25:14 UTC
i'm not a forum person put i will say this, Not everyone in EVE runs Anoms in carriers the initial "buff" of battleships in forsaken hubs is insane. I second to motion of increasing the amount of waves of ships vs that monster of an initial spawn.
Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#216 - 2011-11-17 20:48:35 UTC
S8nt wrote:
Well, now that the fuel is easier for towers, this does become a possibility.


Huh?

S8nt wrote:
The balance in this game tbh is totally fscked and CCP doesn't seem to see it. Between 3 of us we have suspended 52 accounts cause mining is so crap. I am coasting on one account in the hope that CCP wakes up and see what is happening to mining and money in this game.


The rest of this I generally agree with. Alloys have been an unqualified disaster for the health of the game, making mining far less meaningful while serving as one of, if not the chief enabler of today's situation of super capital proliferation. The drone regions should be thrown out and redone.

On a directly related tangent, this is also why I want to see refining time introduced as a mechanic. If refining is no longer a free action, material processing becomes an industry unto itself and new balancing mechanics can be enabled through this mechanism that can stop both mineral compression and alloy superiority while giving an edge to ores and the compressed versions thereof.
Venkul Mul
Vikramaditya
#217 - 2011-11-17 20:53:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Venkul Mul
StukaBee wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Second, yes, there was a huge angry forum thread for the first blog and I ignored it. That was also a mistake (obviously, in retrospect). This happened partly because I was too focused on looking for reasoned critiques to appreciate the significance of the huge outburst that it generated, but mainly because I've been increasingly withdrawn from the forums for the last year or two. It's a pretty draining experience reading page after page after page of angry posts, about all kinds of topics but all ultimately driven by the same core concerns of abandonment and neglect, and agreeing with those concerns, and not being able to do much of anything about it. As a result, I've been avoiding listening to the forums and focusing on doing the best work I can, but the former occasionally precludes the latter. On the bright side, it feels like the mood on the forums has been improving hugely in the last month or two, and I'm making an effort to read and post more as a result. Whether or not this is a good thing is of course a matter of personal opinion ;)


The moral of this story is to never stop posting.



I would say that the moral is "one well thought and argued posts get more than a hundred angry posts".
Pushing a good developer into not reading the forum because there are too many angry posts instead of useful posts isn't something I would be proud of.

Edit: spelling
S8nt
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#218 - 2011-11-17 20:57:07 UTC
Evelgrivion wrote:
[quote=S8nt]Well, now that the fuel is easier for towers, this does become a possibility.


Huh?

^^ reffering to the POS fuel being easier to manage. So making Moon minerals deplete is a option.
Aylanaa
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#219 - 2011-11-17 21:57:54 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Mograthi wrote:

Not exactly true there dude. The change to the bunker horde does amount to a Nerf for those of us in the drone regions.

Just some numbers from my personal experience,

When i am being slow and casual i can do 3 of the bunker hordes an hour and when I am in grind mode i can manage 4 an hour, many of my corp mates can do the same numbers. On an average we can earn 30 million per horde with the poo droppings, so we are averaging 90 - 120 mil an hour. With the change on SISI, we can on average do 2 of these an hour now for 60 mil an hour since the drops were not increased. This means that we are taking a 30% to 50% Nerf in income per hour whilst all the bounty rat regions are getting a buff in isk per hour.

Now I am fine with the change to the horde as it was kind of silly to begin with, but really you should modify the loot table at the same time to account for the change. Unlike many in the area I would be perfectly happy if you changed the drones to be bounty rats, my security status could use in an increase so I can use all those shiny new tier 3 BC's to gank miners with.


This wasn't changed as part of this project, this was changed as part of a bugfix. They're both going out in Crucible, so the timing's pretty unfortunate, but it's a separate issue. And again, the amount of money being made in this way was way higher than intended, that's part of the reason for making the change in the first place (the other part being that it was possible to totally break the site, of course).

RaZor Flash wrote:
I posted a thread in test server feedback, but was told to move my results to this thread.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=34567

Theoretically if we could all use our current setup to run anomalies we will be making more isk per hour after patch because Greyscale buffed ISK:EHP.

This is theoretically and completely IGNORES our ability to actually to do the anomaly.

I was going to write something up about it in my other thread but Charles Edisson beat me to it

This buff to anomalies is a theoretical buff that completely ignores the ability of your ship to be able to run the anomalies. In other words, this buff was implemented poorly.


Charles Edisson wrote:
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Take a better ship. Complaining that there are 'too many ships' is the most ******** thing I've ever heard of, given that it's the ships that bring the money.


You're missing the point here, If you extrapolate the changes to an extreeme amount make an anom with 10,000BS and IF you manage to do it you get 10B isk.

What do you think the outcome of this is going to be, especialy in regions where the rats neut out your cap. YOU WILL DIE, Take 10 friends with you, you still all die. Take 10 friends with you in the fanciest most pimped out ships in the game you still all die.

isk from ratting is all about the rate at which you can kill the rats and the value of the rats. There is a tipping point between there not being enough NPCs to kill to make isk quickly and too many NPCs so that you cant kill them very quickly. He is saying that in atleast some Anomalies the changes on Sisi have pushed them over this tipping point.


How to fix: The anomalies that exist should be the same level of difficulty as they were before patch. The way to do this and increase ISK:EHP is to simply add more waves, and not increase the # of ships per wave.

TL:DR We cannot have our current killing power in the current anomalies so even though ISK:EHP ratio has been increased our ability to kill rats has decreased. We will make LESS ISK PER HOUR

Edit: This is all assuming the point of this is to make getting isk in 0.0 better, if its not, then I might as well create an incursion alt that I can play to fund my desire to be part of an alliance in 0.0, shortly after doing this I might as well quit the game.

Edit 2: I have run a lot of different anomalies and It appears that you front loaded all the battleships and hacs into the initial spawns instead of dividing them equally among the spawns. In other words, I would probably shut up if you just fixed the initial spawn and trigger for the next waves. Anomalies should get harder as you progress not easier /boggle.



I asked people to stick to the feedback thread in no small part because I'd already responded to your earlier post here requesting specific examples so I could better understand the problem :)

Yes, theoretically if we put 10,000 battleships in a site it would be uncompleteable, but we haven't done that. If you can tell us what actual sites you've tested with what actual setups and ships, then we can look into it further. For example, when you're talking about adding ships to the first wave, there's only a limited number of dungeons that was done to - in most cases we did simple substitution so this problem won't manifest, and I'm guessing this isn't a problem for the lower-end sites because they shouldn't be that difficult even with these changes, so it's probably one or two specific dungeons that we can potentially troubleshoot rather than a universal problem.

(The reason waves are added to the beginning of rooms is mainly because it makes the changes easier and therefore faster to do and less likely to break, but it's also I think true that your PvP risk increases as your time in the site increases, so frontloading the PvE danger seems safer overall. In any case, it's not like anyone's consistently running sites that have a reasonable chance of killing them anyway, so while I agree in principle and in isolation an escalating difficulty makes sense, in practice we believe it has minimal impact on the actual play experience.)



**** you and your game
Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#220 - 2011-11-17 22:06:33 UTC
Aylanaa wrote:
**** you and your game


This is all I have to say about that.