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Incentive to play?! Give me more.
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Velicitia
XS Tech
#21 - 2011-11-09 15:50:17 UTC
Rina Asanari wrote:
I actually like EvE because one DOESN'T need to grind for XP and having no "optional" XP gathering method, since it wouldn't be "optional" but more or less required just because to keep pace with the corp/alliance mates or such...

There is enough incentive to play already, and I wouldn't want to allocate my time to mind-numbing SP grinding.


indeed ... it's already mind-numbingly boring enough to grind for standings or ISK when you need to...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Jaraida
Doomheim
#22 - 2011-11-15 02:56:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaraida
So, I'm back again. This forum has eaten my posts 6 or 7 times (damn, I'm so stupid >.<, had to calm down for some days) Unfortunately, I have to cut some quotes out of your constructive posts. 5 quote limit is mew.
ShahFluffers wrote:

Please re-read what I said earlier. When you get permanent "rewards" that directly benefit your character's abilities by doing certain activities (more matter how small the gain or monotonous the activity) then it stops being optional. You HAVE to grind if you want to have more SP than the other guy whom you are "competing" against.


Let's start with this. The most important point against "farming" Sp.

To say it again. EvE is so much different in character progression. It will never force you to do a "grind for SP" cause your character will progress anyway, even without your contribution. You will say what you have said 2 times now again, but consider this example.

With your Logic, players are allready "forced" to do actions they might not like.
Consider IMPS as one great example. Many players are using +3 or +4 Imps, just because they are cheaper. With your logic they would feel forced to buy +5. Many players are not doing this. Why?

Consider skilltraining as another example. How many players are training skills which are not supported by their attributes?
They would feel forced to follow the one year plan made by EvEmon without an exception. They are not feeling forced here, and you know why. Because their characters are improving anyway. As an EvE-player, I'm using +4 imps and my skills are not allways supported by my attributes. I'm loosing permanent advantage here every second, but I just don't care. I know many players which are doing it this way too, although they are "forced" to min/max too by your logic.


Quote:

And this is where you must understand the "EVE mentality"... we log in because we want to DO stuff... productive stuff... without being burdened by the tedium of "grinding" up skillpoints in order to be "more effective."


Well, I'm an EvE player for some years now too. I would consider "improve your character while you're playing" as productive too. But that's just a matter of opinion. You think this is "a tedium of grinding", I would say: "It's a nice incentive to play, just because I like to be able to play for an active character progression". So far, I've received more "likes" for this post than no's in this thread. I know it's no informative value, but yeah, I guess some players would like this feature too. I would like my Idea's without SP too, and it seems the dynamic events would be more appreciated without SP too.

Quote:

If you think that this is the main point of MMOs then you are unnecessarily limiting yourself and not seeing the "bigger picture."
Do I really have to mention "playing with friends together" and "playing for fun"? I thought that's obvious..
The point here is: character progression is the core part in playing RPG's, and it doesn't matter what kind of RPG you are playing. P&P, MMORPG's, LARP's. It's all the same for this type of games called RPG's.

Quote:

Certainly, the older player CAN get into a larger ship and come after the younger player who is still in a Frigate... provided that the younger player is dumb enough to wait. In a Cruiser, the older player will be at an AUTOMATIC disadvantage in terms of mobility and speed compared to the Frigate.
In other words... newbie kills older player in frigate... older player comes back in larger ship... newbie doesn't like what he/she sees and GTFOs... older player can't keep up and breaks off pursuit.


And obviously, the older player could bring a prop-mod and a web to counter the fast frigate. Come on man, we both know that tactics, fittings and all the stuff might alter the outcome of a fight. Skillpoints can do this too, and that's the point.
I don't want to have 12761625 zillions of counter and re-counter arguments for this point, so I'm cutting the rest of your post.
Tactics, fittings, SP's and countless other points may alter the outcome of a fight. You are right, I'm right too. Done.

PS: I was finally able to copy my text before posting \o/
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2011-11-15 07:06:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Quote:
At this point, I would like to grab a very, very important counter-argument out of this Thread. "SP are compared with level up in WoW". This point is simply wrong. SP is compared to Itemprogression in WoW. The difference in here is: WoW character-progression is fun, character-progression in EvE is clearly NOT. I know this, you all know this. Even CCP knows. (remember this specific "EvE is Real" - Video? Every EvE player has to laugh about "Exiting leveling system" which is commented with a "skill-training completed! hilarious :D or the various CCP-Joke-Ads for "new players")


Actually, that's not corret either.

Gaining SP in NOT like leveling in WoW (which you stated)

But SP is also NOT like grinding gear in WoW either.



Actually, grinding isk to buy modules/ships/implants in Eve is the exact same as grinding out gear in WoW.

The closest thing in WoW that can be compared to gaining SP in Eve is also the closest thing to making Eve and WoW alike.

And that is the market.

The reason why I say the market is like SP is because you go out and you grind materials(WoW)/isk(Eve).

You use that to then make WoW items/buy a book in Eve.

Then you put the items in the WoW market/inject the book and start training.

Then you can log off and gain gold/SP while you're logged off.

While that might not be the greatest comparison, it's probably the closest thing to describing how SP works.

Now, to comment on the relationship of players with Eve I too feel this is an issue.

However, I feel it's an issue for a different reason.

I'll Explain:

With Eve the way it is, there is little to no knowledge that new players receive to actually help them learn the aspects of Eve pretty much at all.

Their are training missions, but they are quite lacking at best. Actually, I would say they are worthless.

They teach new players very little about Eve, and what they are tought is actually more confusing than it is helpful, and it doesn't even explain to them the dangers of low sec, wh's, null sec. It doesn't teach them about suicide ganks, baits, aggro...NOTHING HELPFUL WHAT SO EVER.

Hell, they dont' even learn how to even slightly fit a ship.

Which is why I devised a thread that a bit Riskea, but I feel it would be helpful in the new player experience.

If you wanna draw players in you have to allow them to see and experience the potential they have in Eve.

This is why I created this thread:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=328031#post328031

To sum it up, it's basically creating a new training ground that will

1) Give noobs the training they truly need, from ships, to fittings, to pve, pvp, and mining.

2) Allows players to actually experience the full potential they have in Eve, so that they can better decide whether they wanna stick it out or not.(Which would probably lead to more people staying)

I feel it would be a very helpful addition to Eve, and keeping these players in a seperate server during the training duration would allow them to accomplish this training without the interference of other players.

I had also suggested that mission dialog and explanations etc. etc. be vocal as well as writen. ( We all know it's a lot easier to listen than it is to read...other wise we wouldn't be playing games)(I would also like to suggest making all mission dialog for missions and whatever else in Eve vocal as well. I don't get why in the space age we can only get emails from our agents, even when we're in the same building..It would be nice if they actually talked to us.)

But seriously, read the thread and take it seriously as I feel it would help the Eve population and community as a whole.
Jaraida
Doomheim
#24 - 2011-11-15 14:09:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaraida
Hey Joe,

Joe Risalo wrote:

The reason why I say the market is like SP is because you go out and you grind materials(WoW)/isk(Eve).


The problem here is, crafted items in WoW are worthless compared to raiding gear. It was different 4 years ago for a small number of certain items, yes. But it is not anymore. Gold is worthless for character progression, and thats the reason why
Highend-items in WoW have to be compared to SP in EvE.

I will give you another example:

You need ISK in EvE to buy modules etc. <-> you need maxlevel in WoW to be able to use the strongest gear.
You need SP to improve your character (new ship, better weapones etc.) <-> you need high-end items to be able to do harder content/ gain strenght.

Once you have enough ISK in EvE, you don't need it anymore to improve.
The same is true for WoW if you hit the level-cap, you don't need more ExP/Level UP's to improve (until next expansion).

I have to agree to the rest of your post, and I will read your Idea as soon as my shift is over.
Jaraida
Doomheim
#25 - 2011-11-17 14:03:14 UTC
No one has something to say anymore? Cry
Ulam Stanislaw
#26 - 2011-11-17 17:52:25 UTC
-1 !
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#27 - 2011-11-17 18:10:10 UTC
Jaraida wrote:
Yeah, that's the reason why EvE is small. (no offense)

The majority of players playing MMO's likes to have an influence on character progression..
In EvE, you don't have this option.

Anyway: you don't have to do the xp/sp/level grind. Just don't do it if you don't like it. But imagine one of the special GM's would make a PvP based event in low/nullsec. You won't like it?




Well actually in Eve all you have to do is not grind xp/skills but isk, then buy the character you want of can afford on toon's bazaar.

Seems it' snot the "same" stuff, well actually it's not the same mechanic but at the end the fact is that with simple irl $$ you buy gtc's transform in plex and buy character whatsoever.

So in other games you grind your xp and golds whatsoever to improve your char and watch it progress, in eve everything you need to see in progress is your wallet.
SP is just a minor factor IG.
Roger Soros
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#28 - 2011-11-17 19:17:53 UTC
Eve don't have a proper character progression, eve is more about player progression based on isk, in wow if you join an Hardcore guild you gain access to more powerfull item, in eve if you join a super Ally you gain access to the most rewarding source of isk in game. With isk you can buy even skill point due to the fact that you can buy an already skilled character from other player legally. Need a titan pilot nice have sufficent billion in your wallet good go to the character bazar and buy him, need a skilled JF hauler good you can buy him; isk in that game are the true progression and this is why CCP allow peoples to buy isk for real money and this is why bots in eve hurt way more than they do in a game like wow.
Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2011-11-17 19:34:59 UTC
This is a bad thread, and the OP should feel bad.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#30 - 2011-11-17 20:21:20 UTC

Eve is similar to wow in terms of item grinding and perhaps the market.

The SP system of eve is moreless good as is.

We don't need a method to grind out SP's..... I just don't think that would be healthy for the game.

What we do need is more content that newer players (< 1 Month), that they can engage in while training up. It should be encourage fleeting up with others, thereby helping them make bonds (solo players don't last nearly as long as group players).

There is a common misnomer in eve that PvPing requires a big bank role and/or high skill points. This is very wrong, and its one of the major strong points that make EvE different from WoW. Four newb players in WoW can't do much to defeat a long time vet, but in eve, this is often done. Encouraging confrontations like this is what we need..... not grinding for SP.
David Xavier
The Capsuleers of Unconscious Thought
#31 - 2011-11-17 21:04:38 UTC  |  Edited by: David Xavier
Jaraida wrote:
No one has something to say anymore? Cry

Here is a task for you:

Come up with an idea that makes it easy and attractive for people to form and join fleets and play together with other players that have the same interests. This is supposed to be a multiplayer game yet there is no incentive to do so outside of low-sec and 0.0 PvP, even there most people spend more time in fleet with their own alt(s) than other people.


  • Currently Incursions are "have phat skillz & ship or GTFO"

  • The fleet finder is useless in this regard.


Currently a newbie can log on, check the skill queue then do some solo mining/mission grinding and fall asleep while "playing" EvE Online. For them this game is relegated into a chat client with some nice graphics.

I don't suffer from insanity.. I enjoy it !
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