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PVP ships and reasons why they are good or bad
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Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#21 - 2013-10-23 18:30:10 UTC
Frigates, any AF flown right are great. Best though are the Harpy, Hawk, Wolf, and Enyo. All assault frigates are very tough and do very good DPS. Flown right you shouldn't have to fear really any Destroyer or down with them. Also Stleathbombers if used right are VERY effect against all different types and sizes of targets.

after the patch though interceptors will probably be the new frigate kings. and after the patch the Electronic frigates should be better to toy with also.

T1 destroyers aren't bad, but they have issues I hope CCP looks into, interdictors are good for their rule and can be tough to kill but even a Sabre against a well fit, weill piloted AF isn't going to win

Cruisers,T3s, HACs, Recons, and some Navy/pirate faction ships. Again it comes down to knowing how to fly them. Tengu is king though, out of ANY ship in EVE Tengus are the top killers. HACs after the patch are amazing now, Recons have always been good , if used right and any T3 fit and flown right is to fear.

Heavy Interdictors use to be good, and still aren't bad, but they aren't what they once were. Logi is always great to have haha

BSs and BCs are good for PvP, some are better thnen others though and again have to be flown right and used right, just remeber BSs are slow and are easy to chase down.

Blackops are good for the role they do in PvP, but really nothing else.

I think the funniest ship to fly are frigates, and you always need them, in pretty much any PvP, to scout, to grab and hold targets, and for a number of other things. And a good wolf pack gang is very fun and effective. But really you need to just find what you like to fly the most and fly it when you can, but also be able to fly others things so you can have more options and to able to help your alliance/corp out better.

I believe in learning to PvP with frigates though, when I get someone new to train for PvP I always buy them 20 T1 frigates and tell them to go out and loose them. When they loose one to send me an AAR about what happened, and when they kill something to send me an AAR about what happened and when I take them out we always do an AAR after. The thing with frigates is that there is much less room for error with them, so if you can learn to fly a T1 frigate well, you will fly all other ships much more perficient.
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#22 - 2013-10-23 20:55:35 UTC
Without being an elitist ****, I'll explain what Chessur is trying to say. When you fly frigates and dessies you essentially transport yourself into a different world in the game. With the exception of noobs, when you see anything cruiser and above you have to avoid it; whenever you see multiple people usually you can't fight them. A frig or dessy pilot's only targets are other frigs and dessies. Moving just one step up to a cruiser, specifically a kiting cruiser, opens the door for you to engage almost every ship you see and and allow you to fight gangs.

Flying a cruiser is quite literally the next level of pvp. Doing the same exact 1 v 1 1000 times over gets redundant very quickly. Fighting with 5 to 1 odds never gets old.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#23 - 2013-10-23 22:12:17 UTC
In frigates or destroyers you can target large ships, I have seen a frigate beat a cruiser. Also wolf packs can take out battleships and other larger ships pretty easy if done right. and ANY fleet you have, you need frigates, you need them to grab those ships you want to kill, if it's another frigate or it's battleship, you need a frigate or destroyer to do the chasing, and tackle usually. Yes you can go out on fast cruise fleets and just kite out, but they you are just going to get sniping boats after you or another fast cruise gang chasing you down. What I'm saying is if you learn to fly small ships first, ships that have little room for making mistakes, you will fly these cruisers and BCs, and BSs much more perficient. I also believe I said "But really you need to just find what you like to fly the most and fly it when you can, but also be able to fly others things so you can have more options and to able to help your alliance/corp out better". I just enjoy flying frigates, I can fly any races ships T2 BC and down and all races T1 BS and down and Caldari/Gal Carriers and Dreads. And I fly what is called for when needed, but if I can fly a frigate I will, if something else is needed I'll fly that, or if something is better for the job I will fly that. What it all comes down to is it's a game, and it's up to you what you do in it. Find what you love to do and do that.
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#24 - 2013-10-23 22:43:54 UTC
Well once again I'll repeat myself for those who are either hard of hearing or just plain slow.

This PvP we are talking about. Player v Player, not ship v ship. If you don't take into account the other 'player' then you are just simple daft.

Both Gods and Chessur make good points about pvp fit cruiser flown competantly by pvp pilots should slaughter frigs all day long. And that quite often happens but I'll let you in on a not so secret secret.....it's NOT becasue they are flying cruisers and killing frigs.

It's because they are using the right tools for the job and fly them right. If they get it wrong they will die pretty much like everyone else.

Frigs/dessies are by far the most popular ships I see in low sec nowadays (AU tz) so telling some one they are not flown or usefull is just plain wrong and misleading. Tell someone to learn how to fly cruisers to slaughter frigs is not a bad thing tbh Twisted

Just out of curiosity I actually checked my KB to see if I had many solo cruiser kills with me in a frig that were pvp fit.

Neut Vexor - not the best fit but definately pvp Killed this in a simple mse fit slasher (which I don't rate despite lots of people favouring it over the rifter - looking at you Garv!!)

Caught a drake doing an old FW plex in my dessie Simple grabbed this guy while he was killing the plex rats. Despite being webbed he did minimal damage and I just waited till rats killed him.

The vast majority were pve fit cruisers. However I have been part of small gangs roaming low sec and FW that just murder pvp cruisers/BC.

There are tools for each job in eve and telling people that it just doesn't happen is just wrong.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#25 - 2013-10-23 23:06:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
God's Apples wrote:
Without being an elitist ****, I'll explain what Chessur is trying to say. When you fly frigates and dessies you essentially transport yourself into a different world in the game. With the exception of noobs, when you see anything cruiser and above you have to avoid it; whenever you see multiple people usually you can't fight them. A frig or dessy pilot's only targets are other frigs and dessies. Moving just one step up to a cruiser, specifically a kiting cruiser, opens the door for you to engage almost every ship you see and and allow you to fight gangs.

Flying a cruiser is quite literally the next level of pvp. Doing the same exact 1 v 1 1000 times over gets redundant very quickly. Fighting with 5 to 1 odds never gets old.


I quite frequently go for solo cruisers and frig 3 or 4 v 1's in a frigate

But i also die a lot of the time when i do that.

(And like i think i should add that i'm actually on a bit of a cruiser binge myself lately, feeling kinda sick of frigates for the moment. But they are still an awesome pvp platform)

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-10-24 00:07:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrett
Well - frigates and dessies are used in FW a lot. Solo and in small gang. I can assure you they are quite useful in many situations. People who make statements without considering FW pvp are not telling the whole story. I dont know the statistics cold, but I would wager that FW is a pretty large portion of small gang pvp in EVE.

But I will agree - Cruiser is probably the best all around ship. It is the EVE baseline against which all other things are measured. You have the largest engagement envelope. They are also my favorite ship. But they are not the be-all end-all of pvp. If you think so, I invite you to Black Rise for a week or two. There are frigate, dessie and AF masters aplenty (I am not one of them) and I would wager Chessur might even learn a thing or two - no matter how good you already are.


Ahh - found the article I was thinking of about FW pvp. Here.

EDIT: I see you have spent some time in FW space. You use a lot of cerbs and CNI etc. Try plex warfare for a bit.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Gorn Arming
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-10-24 01:24:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Gorn Arming
Chessur wrote:
Quote:

You're a flat, honest-to-god idiot, Chessur. This is the kind of awful posting (and worse thinking) that I though was beneath FA. You don't know jack **** about the circumstances under which I engage targets because attacking a group, picking off one target, and then getting out alive looks suspiciously like fighting a loner later on Eve-Kill.

And you can sit here and tout your "no true scotsman" nonsense about killing cruisers and up with destroyers all day long--it doesn't change anything.

I've looked at your killboard, too, Chessur. I'm not stupid enough to try to infer the details of those engagements from a simple kill report, but I would say that your methods don't seem to be bringing you much success. Maybe it's time to try a new strategy.


Yep, no Idea what im doing. check that BR. Slightly off, because the people 'in my fleet' were in fact not. That was me engaging one gang, in a caracal.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=16455311

Or this:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=16036883

Or how about this?

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=18675507

I could keep going, but frankly any more effort would be more than you deserve.

And yes, I do know more than Jack **** when I look at your kills. They are isolated incidents, mostly separated over long periods of time- and in different sytems. I will say again, you have little to no practical experience when it comes to real solo / Small gang. Also, most of your kills are either
a. Pods
b. Noob ships
c. Kills you 'achived' while flying in huge blob fleets

@ Temporary Amnesia- Call me what ever you want, your opinion is irrelevant considering your PvP history.

@ Taoist Dragon: A lone frig killing a cruiser, is a huge exception- not the standard. I will repeat- It shouldn't happen, if ever that a frigate will solo, will kill a proper PvP fit cruiser I placed on that list.

Well, for starters, you are flat out lying about most of my kills being noobships and pods. I did score a lot of pods back in my early fleet days (once took out 39 during a fleet engagement when I was just running a Thrasher), but most of my recent kills are fighting "up" at least one class. Let's see here--oh, and unlike your sad self, I'm going to stick with the previous 30 days only. I notice you're digging up fights from the beginning of the year. Cute, Chessur, but you're not fooling anyone.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=20038853
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=19972610
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=19911034 (This was a close one)
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=19897871
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=19740870 (Also close)

Actually, if you want to compare killboards, let's just do this. Everyone reading can decide who's got more credibility on their own.
Here's Chessur for October:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&view=kills&plt_id=625011&m=10&y=2013
And here's me:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&view=kills&plt_id=698396&m=10&y=2013

I think it's super cute though that you tout your ~pvp experience~ in fighting nerds in lesser ships. Most of your kills are in faction cruisers vs. regular cruisers, or HACs vs. frigates, etc. But please, continue to hold court and tell us plebs which ships should never be flown.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#28 - 2013-10-24 02:29:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
Omen Navy Issue may indeed be overrated. At Least how they're currently being setup.

Also, destroyers are worth flying. The Talwar more so than the others I suppose...

These are the ships I feel own their class. As to why they do? v0v

Stabber fleet Issue
Omen Navy Issue

Vexor
Bellicose
Arbitrator
Caracal

Talwar
Algos
Dragoon
Thrasher
Coercer

Comet
Slicer
Hookbill

Tristan
Merlin
Condor
Kestrel

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Gorn Arming
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-10-24 02:57:51 UTC
Anyway, a srs post:

Since tiericide it would be a shorter list to cover which ships aren't good, since most of the revised versions are good for something, even if it's not obvious what it is.

I am sort of a fan of ridiculous trolling killmails, so I've flown plenty of ships in plenty of bizarre configurations. Recently the Scythe has kinda been my favorite. Anyway, the idea is more to have a coherent fit and an understanding of how to fly it than to have any one ship or weapon or whatever.

For instance, if I'm in a brawling fit (i.e. sig tanking, TD tanking, anything but range tanking really) I need to keep in mind a few things--first, there's no easy way out of a losing fight. My options for escape are limited to burning back to the gate (if we're even on a gate), jamming via ECM drones, or neuting. So I've got to be more aware of who's moving where in nearby systems. Second, I'm going to have difficulty getting a solid tackle--a faster kiting ship will avoid getting caught if the pilot is also decent. To overcome that, you can try a number of things--you can try the classic slingshot, or switch on links unexpectedly (if you've got 'em), bait your target into making a mistake (this is basically how I get kills in the Scythe), warping around to separate a gang, or using bubbles in null. If you can pull it off, you'll easily dunk the other guy (sometimes several other guys).

Meanwhile if I was kiting I'd have a whole other set of challenges and be in a completely different fit--sometimes in the same ship. I could easily fit that Scythe for kiting with damps or TDs and a perma-MWD fit (instead of as an AB sig tanker the way I have it set up now).


The Eve PVP metagame is set up so that even mechanically suboptimal ships can be effective precisely because they're widely known to be suboptimal. You can't win a fight with EFT numbers alone; your opponent's behavior is an important part of the equation and you can influence that by your choice of ship and fit in addition to how you fly it. Instead of saying "what's a good ship for PvP", you should be asking "what can I do with this ship in PvP". Better than 3/4 of the rebalanced ships have some kind of situation where they'll kick ass.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2013-10-24 11:12:53 UTC
God's Apples wrote:
Without being an elitist ****, I'll explain what Chessur is trying to say. When you fly frigates and dessies you essentially transport yourself into a different world in the game. With the exception of noobs, when you see anything cruiser and above you have to avoid it; whenever you see multiple people usually you can't fight them. A frig or dessy pilot's only targets are other frigs and dessies. Moving just one step up to a cruiser, specifically a kiting cruiser, opens the door for you to engage almost every ship you see and and allow you to fight gangs.

Flying a cruiser is quite literally the next level of pvp. Doing the same exact 1 v 1 1000 times over gets redundant very quickly. Fighting with 5 to 1 odds never gets old.



not always.. as seen here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4VSukE8lZs Granted the target is know to have its reasoanble share of "not battle hardened" folks . But soemtimes you can have great fun and real cobmat on thiose ships.

Mianly because peopel do not avoid fighting you.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#31 - 2013-10-24 11:24:46 UTC
Frigates are fantastic against other frigates, and in small packs against all other ships. Assault frigs with logi can take on anything. In FW space T1 frigs rule over everything else if you are looking for PVP.

But in general I do agree with Chessur (even though not with his ABSOLUTE B/W "facts" style of presenting it), cruisers are the more generally viable class.

Kiting is no longer the only solution to one vs many, yes you need speed but separating/singling out targets and getting out works with SR weapons as well, you'll just want the dps to melt the victim before others catch up.

Generally kiting multiple opponents require them to be complete retards, a kiter can't score a single kill against any competent gang and that's something you need to account for when picking a ship. Kiting is good for avoiding losses, not so much for getting kills.

As what comes to the topic, current ships can be fitted in so many various, viable ways that going through their strengths makes little sense. I fly Gallente only, and I have 2-4 different fits/tactics for Atron, Incursus and Tristan. (MWD brawler, AB brawler, scram kiter, MWD kiter).






.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#32 - 2013-10-24 12:21:03 UTC
Gorn Arming wrote:
The Eve PVP metagame is set up so that even mechanically suboptimal ships can be effective precisely because they're widely known to be suboptimal. You can't win a fight with EFT numbers alone; your opponent's behavior is an important part of the equation and you can influence that by your choice of ship and fit in addition to how you fly it. Instead of saying "what's a good ship for PvP", you should be asking "what can I do with this ship in PvP".


^^^ this.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2013-10-24 12:37:49 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Gorn Arming wrote:
The Eve PVP metagame is set up so that even mechanically suboptimal ships can be effective precisely because they're widely known to be suboptimal. You can't win a fight with EFT numbers alone; your opponent's behavior is an important part of the equation and you can influence that by your choice of ship and fit in addition to how you fly it. Instead of saying "what's a good ship for PvP", you should be asking "what can I do with this ship in PvP".


^^^ this.



IT could always be worse.. it could always be a tempest.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#34 - 2013-10-24 16:51:30 UTC
The thing about a cruiser vs frigate one on one is usually if the frigate doesn't want to fight, they don't have to,` they can warp out or move away fast enough to not have to engage. And after this patch cruisers will have a much harder time catching frigates for one on ones. It's true most of the time a frigate or destroyer is going to loose against a cruiser in a one on one battle, as it should be, but not always. I have seen Interceptors, faction friagates and AF take a cruiser by themselves a flew times, but again it all comes down to both pilots and how ships are fit. With my toons I have 327 kills with Daredevils, over 100 with Harpies and 94 with Hawks, plus over 60 between Wolfs, Jags, Veng, and other AFs. But I also have a ton of kills in cruisers and BCs, so really it all depends. There is no perfect ship for everything, that's why I always have over 300 fully fit ships for PvP at any giving time, and I just pick the right ship with the right fit for what is needed for the fight. HACs are beasts now though, if you are planning to stick with cruiser hulls.
Platypus King
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2013-10-24 16:58:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Platypus King
I'll help you make good ship list k?

1. Caracal
2. Caracal

Sometimes bellicose but that's only when you're out of caracals
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#36 - 2013-10-24 18:45:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Chessur
Gorn Arming wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Quote:

You're a flat, honest-to-god idiot, Chessur. This is the kind of awful posting (and worse thinking) that I though was beneath FA. You don't know jack **** about the circumstances under which I engage targets because attacking a group, picking off one target, and then getting out alive looks suspiciously like fighting a loner later on Eve-Kill.

And you can sit here and tout your "no true scotsman" nonsense about killing cruisers and up with destroyers all day long--it doesn't change anything.

I've looked at your killboard, too, Chessur. I'm not stupid enough to try to infer the details of those engagements from a simple kill report, but I would say that your methods don't seem to be bringing you much success. Maybe it's time to try a new strategy.


Yep, no Idea what im doing. check that BR. Slightly off, because the people 'in my fleet' were in fact not. That was me engaging one gang, in a caracal.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=16455311

Or this:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=16036883

Or how about this?

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=18675507

I could keep going, but frankly any more effort would be more than you deserve.

And yes, I do know more than Jack **** when I look at your kills. They are isolated incidents, mostly separated over long periods of time- and in different sytems. I will say again, you have little to no practical experience when it comes to real solo / Small gang. Also, most of your kills are either
a. Pods
b. Noob ships
c. Kills you 'achived' while flying in huge blob fleets

@ Temporary Amnesia- Call me what ever you want, your opinion is irrelevant considering your PvP history.

@ Taoist Dragon: A lone frig killing a cruiser, is a huge exception- not the standard. I will repeat- It shouldn't happen, if ever that a frigate will solo, will kill a proper PvP fit cruiser I placed on that list.

Well, for starters, you are flat out lying about most of my kills being noobships and pods. I did score a lot of pods back in my early fleet days (once took out 39 during a fleet engagement when I was just running a Thrasher), but most of my recent kills are fighting "up" at least one class. Let's see here--oh, and unlike your sad self, I'm going to stick with the previous 30 days only. I notice you're digging up fights from the beginning of the year. Cute, Chessur, but you're not fooling anyone.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=20038853
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=19972610
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=19911034 (This was a close one)
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=19897871
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=19740870 (Also close)

Actually, if you want to compare killboards, let's just do this. Everyone reading can decide who's got more credibility on their own.
Here's Chessur for October:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&view=kills&plt_id=625011&m=10&y=2013
And here's me:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&view=kills&plt_id=698396&m=10&y=2013

I think it's super cute though that you tout your ~pvp experience~ in fighting nerds in lesser ships. Most of your kills are in faction cruisers vs. regular cruisers, or HACs vs. frigates, etc. But please, continue to hold court and tell us plebs which ships should never be flown.


I just want to confirm that you are putting up. A kill mail of you killing a pve ship. Well played sir, well played.
Edit: looking at the killmail more closely, you are in fact bragging about killing a no point, invuln, t1 gun talos with no drones. You sir, deserve some kind of accolade
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#37 - 2013-10-24 18:57:38 UTC
Platypus King wrote:
I'll help you make good ship list k?

1. Caracal
2. Caracal

Sometimes bellicose but that's only when you're out of caracals


Now this man, knows what he is talking about along with apples.
Thaddeus Eggeras
Urkrathos Corp
#38 - 2013-10-24 20:21:00 UTC
You both kill me, neither one of you have room to talk, as you both seem to kill PvE ships, miners, and other ships unable to defend themselves. It also kills me you are talking smack about each others kill boards, like niether one of you have other toons in EVE. How about we get back on track, instead of trying to see who has the biggest ****, through a computer no less.

The Caracal is a good ship but against some other T1 cruisers, a few faction cruisers and pretty much any HAC it won't last. Big thing is to know when and what to pick your fights against, that is when it's you picking the fight haha. One on one is fun but it's also a lot of fun in small, med, and large gangs. I'll one on one anyone I think I have half a chance winning against, but I have also said one on one and when the fight starts their friends fly in, so don't ever expect a fair fight, not in EVE. Just have fun, and don't fly anything you can't afford to loose.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#39 - 2013-10-24 21:11:23 UTC
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
You both kill me, neither one of you have room to talk, as you both seem to kill PvE ships, miners, and other ships unable to defend themselves. It also kills me you are talking smack about each others kill boards, like niether one of you have other toons in EVE. How about we get back on track, instead of trying to see who has the biggest ****, through a computer no less.

The Caracal is a good ship but against some other T1 cruisers, a few faction cruisers and pretty much any HAC it won't last. Big thing is to know when and what to pick your fights against, that is when it's you picking the fight haha. One on one is fun but it's also a lot of fun in small, med, and large gangs. I'll one on one anyone I think I have half a chance winning against, but I have also said one on one and when the fight starts their friends fly in, so don't ever expect a fair fight, not in EVE. Just have fun, and don't fly anything you can't afford to loose.


Can you name me one T1 cruiser then that will perform well against faction / HAC's ? I would love to hear it. I have killed HAC's and faction ships in my T1 caracal- so it can kill some of them with ease.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#40 - 2013-10-24 21:22:53 UTC
Quote:
Can you name me one T1 cruiser then that will perform well against faction / HAC's ? I would love to hear it. I have killed HAC's and faction ships in my T1 caracal- so it can kill some of them with ease.


One time I killed a BC/BS duo with myself and a corpmate in Rifters. I have never replicated this with other frigates. Therefore, the Rifter is the best frigate for killing above-class ships.