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Balancing Feedback: Tier3 Battlecruisers

First post
Author
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#721 - 2011-11-17 16:35:22 UTC
Phantomania wrote:
OK, lets put those bonus's on the Naga, minus the 100% bonus to damage and 8 hardpoints instead. You solved it, well done!

Now YOU go back to flying the Rokh, and stop being the greedy ***** that you are! As a 2006 Pilot I'm sure you can probably fly every Hybrid boat, Caldari and Gallente!


Because it still doesn't make the ship viable! Roll

The ship is slow, and large (due to the need to put a LSE on it- you cannot actively tank with this ship.

You STILL have to fit a target painter on the thing to take advantage of the bonus.
You STILL won't have the range with just a damage bonus.

Yes, I can fly both Caldari and Gallente, I trained my missile skills up to T2 then moved on to drones and finally hybrids.

While you rejoiced a couple years ago with the Drake, I looked at the Ferox, Merlin, and Eagle and sighed.

While people like you got all pissy about the Rokh, I flew it long enough to realize it was WORTHLESS due to the projectile and laser buff. It still is- but we'll see.

I was there when torps were laughed at, they were used for PvE in nullsec and on dreads but nothing else... Torps were LR at that time. In CCP's desire to make missiles more useful in PvP they made them short range.

Torp ravens became FOTM, and again I watched as rails were ignored.

Caldari, which you hold in such high regard, became a PvP laughingstock and still are today... There is ONE... ONE PvP Caldari ship, and it's the drake.


The Drake has everything you want in the Naga plus a tank. Fitted well it can perma run an MWD, have a fantastic buffer and put out nice DPS.

The Cerberus puts out a TREMENDOUS amount of DPS and fast at that. It's mobile and can put a hurting on even BSs. I use it often.. hell the past few days I've been flying a cerb almost exclusively.



You're crying over not having one Tier of one ship class.... one little freaking ship class doesn't go to missiles and you whine.

Tier 3 is ADVANCED. Tier 2 is STANDARD, which is what missile ships are. They're the easy button. You just target and shoot. No worry about transversal, velocity, tracking... nope. Just point and shoot.



All in all, you have no changed what you want 3 times. You have no idea what would be needed to make this a balanced and viable missile boat. I'd really suggest you stop and salvage some dignity.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

OT Smithers
Perkone
Caldari State
#722 - 2011-11-17 16:38:05 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Iam Widdershins wrote:
People are forgetting that the only original complaint about the Torpedo Naga was that it has difficulties applying the damage, i.e. torpedoes are slow. This is easy to fix with role bonuses that makes torpedoes reach their max range quicker rather than chugging along at the same speed as a MWDing Naga.


No, it's nothing to do with the torp velocity.

The problem was the explosion radius of 450 m and the explosion velocity of ~108 m/s, requiring usage of a painter and web to apply good damage to its tier 3 counterparts, and the lack of a torp damage bonus which meant that it has less raw damage than any other tier 3 BC.

On the proper BS scale, torps are basically okay, because they work well against fat, slow BS bricks. But these tier 3 BCs are intended to be used more as skirmish platforms - if they go head to head with a BS then they'll just die horribly. As such, torpedos are a terrible weapon for the Naga - a torp Naga can't survive a close-range engagement against a BS, and it can't apply much torp DPS to smaller targets.

Against fellow t3 BCs, the torp Naga was hopeless. It had the lowest raw DPS of any, lacking a torp damage bonus. It needed to get into web range to apply that poor DPS, which it found difficult being the slowest. It needed at least one painter to apply its poor raw DPS too. The result was a slow ship that was only effective inside web range and had relatively poor DPS even when it somehow managed to apply its EFT maximum.

It was a nonsense, a pointless ship, one utterly outclassed by every other t3 BC at close range and at long range. It made the Talos look good, that's how bad it was. It was also terrible at PVE, for the same reasons of poor application of damage against elite frigates and cruisers. I am astonished that there is so much misinformed, clueless carebear whinging - it sounds like that idiotic missile whine thread after the QR missile boost, dozens of pages full of carebears whinging that they'd had to change their L4 fit, unable to comprehend that missile PVP had just been massively boosted.

The rail Naga has a substantial DPS advantage over every other t3 BC beyond ~80 km. It is a useful ship that will be flown; the torp Naga was a pointless embarrassment.


All true, and it misses the point. Everyone, including CCP, knows that Torps and Cruise missiles have huge issues -- this is why no one uses them. The solution is not to abandon missiles and all the people who spent months or years training them.

The solution is to fix the freaking missile problem.

The whole point of this so-called new direction is that CCP is supposed to have STOPPED this kind of half-assed bullshit. Yet here, again, we see that this is not the case.
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#723 - 2011-11-17 16:42:04 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
.



All in all, you have no changed what you want 3 times. You have no idea what would be needed to make this a balanced and viable missile boat. I'd really suggest you stop and salvage some dignity.




eh....no!

and you talk about salvaging dignity with those glasses? Lol

Your not allowed 2 new PvP ships!
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#724 - 2011-11-17 16:52:02 UTC
OT Smithers wrote:

All true, and it misses the point. Everyone, including CCP, knows that Torps and Cruise missiles have huge issues -- this is why no one uses them. The solution is not to abandon missiles and all the people who spent months or years training them.

The solution is to fix the freaking missile problem.

The whole point of this so-called new direction is that CCP is supposed to have STOPPED this kind of half-assed bullshit. Yet here, again, we see that this is not the case.


Years? It takes maybe 2 months to fully train up missiles, same as it does rails. I never understood where people get this from.

standard missiles -> heavy missiles -> torps/cruise ->
... branch -> assault missiles -> heavy assault missiles

You branch off into 2 sections on the heavy side which lead to specialized missiles (low range/hi damage or LR/low damage, respectively)

small hybrid -> medium hybrid -> large hybrid
... branch -> small rails -> medium rails -> large rails

Supporting skills taks roughly the same time, just most missile users never bother with projection, bombardment, painting, etc.

Gunnery support skills help hybrids but apply to ALL turret platforms, thus opening you up to every race:
sharpshooter, controlled bursts, etc.

But to say that people spend YEARS training missiles is a joke. No it takes zero time, but people do that then ignore half of the race's other ships because CCP already made viable ships while the railships remained on the backburner.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Iam Widdershins
Victory or Whatever
#725 - 2011-11-17 16:57:49 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
900 DPS is nothing special relative to the others, not just the Talos.

900 dps is pretty great, much more than you can get under normal circumstances with a Tornado (in fact, more than its DPS at optimal range for most fits), and if you shoehorn on 3 BCUs or use Rage torpedoes effectively (rather than faction) this number can be much higher.



Quote:
Up until about 80 mill SP I was completely specialised in missile spamming in solo/small-gang environments. I know full what the torp Raven is capable of. And, more importantly, why it is capable of it. The torp Raven has the EHP to be able to go toe-to-toe with another BS and give a very good account of itself. The torp Naga cannot, because it cannot survive a slugging match with another BS and cannot apply a useful amount of DPS, to smaller ships. In either situation, any other t3 BC was a better choice.

AB? Come on, it's not a frigate.

Your arguments about why the Naga is bad revolve entirely around its low EHP, which is a concern that is shared equally with the other new battlecruisers. This part of your argument is entirely invalid. Also, I have completely mauled battleships in a stand up fight with the torpedo Naga.



Quote:
It was the worst of all four t3 BCs against BS, having the least damage that was most difficult to apply. It was most vulnerable to damage from other BS, being the slowest and having the fattest sig. Being faster than its missiles is no big deal; it's only a problem when the target can outrun the missiles.

I can tell you exactly how good it would have been against capitals - the worst of all four t3 BCs, having the lowest DPS on the least survivable platform.

The Naga in fact deals the best against capital ships, because you can actually select damage type for their resist hole -- an advantage that puts it a step above even the Talos with neutron blasters.

And if it were really the least survivable platform, then it would suck even more now: now it has to get close to deal good damage with its blasters, or is stuck with very little tank out at 100+ dealing less damage than a good tachyon Oracle would.



Quote:
Heavy missiles? You're an idiot.

If you'd bothered to fly any of the other BCs, you'd have noticed that they can all do the DPS support role as an aside, and better than the torp Naga to boot. This is why it was worthless. You have analysed the torp Naga in a vacuum and are now proclaiming it to be the best ship ever. Well, this is what happens when you have a sample size of one.

You are the one who is being an idiot here. I'm not asking for hybrids to be removed from the Naga, I'm asking that torpedoes be added back in. You are such a ragey little ass about this.

I can fly and have flown every single new battlecruiser in combat, and they are all great. I found that the torpedo Naga, far from being "worthless," was excellent and had a very interesting role to fill, and filled it admirably.

To summarize: Everything you wrote in this post was wrong.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature

Iam Widdershins
Victory or Whatever
#726 - 2011-11-17 17:06:03 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Iam Widdershins wrote:
Raven Ether wrote:
Fact- Caldari use both hybrids and missiles.

Ask for both.

This. I see no reason to keep the Naga's Hybrids as they are; simply add in Torpedoes again with 2 bonuses: 1 built in to make them reach their destination sooner (this is a pain in the ass to do with per-level), and 1 based on per-level for 10% velocity per level.


If you boost range AND explosion velocity per level (say, 10% velocity or flight time and -10% per level) you will have a ship that is actually too overpowered, and then eclipses the drake, raven, stealth bomber, cerberus, scorpion (sans EW), Golem and Caracal.

The reason explosion radius is what it is on large weapons is a fault just as the others have with tracking (Talos the opposite of course with range)

If you get underneath the Oracle and Tornado's guns, they are dead because they can't hit you. With your buffed Naga that's not an issue.

If you break range of the Talos, it can't hit you, again not an issue when you have a 50km (base stat) torp machine.

BUT

Even with those bonuses, The minute a Tornado sees a Naga it'll take it out before the torps can hit.








Oh, then the other Tier 3 ships will want more bonuses as well.

I'm not asking to have the explosion velocity bonus back. That's fine, it can do without. Just give double-quick missiles and +50% torpedo velocity; having 2 extra bonuses is no problem for a ship that has one of two mutually exclusive weapon systems.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#727 - 2011-11-17 17:45:01 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:
People are forgetting that the only original complaint about the Torpedo Naga was that it has difficulties applying the damage, i.e. torpedoes are slow. This is easy to fix with role bonuses that makes torpedoes reach their max range quicker rather than chugging along at the same speed as a MWDing Naga.

The only people who are excited for the Naga losing its missiles are pilots who prefer guns and hybrids, never really trained missiles, and are excited by the prospect of having 2 completely different ships with different tanks to choose from for their new Hybrid Gank Platform in the new expansion.

Meanwhile, everyone who's actually tried and enjoyed Torpedoes in PVP is left out in the cold, as are the majority of Caldari pilots who have simply trained for missiles.


ITS A SPLIT-WEAPON RACE. THAT MEANS YOU CAN'T "SIMPLY TRAIN MISSILES" AND EXPECT TO EXCEL IN EVERY SHIP.

Holy crap, what is wrong with Caldari pilots. You fly ships that are going to ues a mix of missiles and hybrids. You need to train both if you want to make use of every ship in your lineup. I don't ***** about how I can't fly a good torp phoon if I only trained projectiles. Legends of the Hidden Temple and Figure It Out: pres butan, train hybrids.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#728 - 2011-11-17 17:57:30 UTC
A non Naga Post

Given the already insane falloff of AC and the fact that Blasters Have just had a tracking boost would it be possible to switch the bonus’s, give the Tornado the 7.5% tracking boost and Talos the 10% fall of bonus.

It’s much harder to get a 50% fall of boost than a 37.5% tracking boost a scripted tracking computer gets 30% and as an armor tanker I have mids free for those and webs.
Alsyth
#729 - 2011-11-17 18:06:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Alsyth
Vincent Gaines wrote:

Tier 3 is ADVANCED. Tier 2 is STANDARD, which is what missile ships are. They're the easy button. You just target and shoot. No worry about transversal, velocity, tracking... nope. Just point and shoot.


Not true.

With missiles, if you want to be effective, you have to worry for:
-range (and with moving target and missile delay, it sometimes gets really complicated.)
-velocity of your target (seen on the overview): if faster than your missile velocity, don't even shoot.
-signature of your target (hidden)

With guns, if you want to be effective, you have to worry for:
-range (and only instant range, compared to your opti+falloff)
-signature of your target (hidden)
-angular velocity (instantly seen on the overview)

Pretty much the same level of difficulty (and yes, I use both, for years already).


Now, the fact that missiles:
-are not instant damage (and most of them are really slow and won't hit some targets even at range)
-their formula have an additional limitation preventing them from doing full damage on 0m/s targets (a limitation guns don't have)
...makes them really poor in real life pvp (apart from HMLs, which are somehow the only missiles where the balance feels right, thanks to their range and a few good ships which can use them effectively).
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#730 - 2011-11-17 18:14:07 UTC
Why did you skip the rest or my post?

Alsyth wrote:

Not true.

With missiles, if you want to be effective, you have to worry for:
-range (and with moving target and missile delay, it sometimes gets really complicated.)
-velocity of your target (seen on the overview): if faster than your missile velocity, don't even shoot.
-signature of your target (hidden)

With guns, if you want to be effective, you have to worry for:
-range (and only instant range, compared to your opti+falloff)
-signature of your target (hidden)
-angular velocity (instantly seen on the overview)



Pretty much the same level of difficulty (and yes, I use both, for years already).[/quote]

If you honestly think the majority of missile spammers look at a target's velocity or try to guess a sig radius you really might want to rethink that. Most, if not all but a few, target and shoot.


Quote:

Now, the fact that missiles:
-are not instant damage (and most of them are really slow and won't hit some targets even at range)
-their formula have an additional limitation preventing them from doing full damage on 0m/s targets (a limitation guns don't have)
...makes them really poor in real life pvp (apart from HMLs, which are somehow the only missiles where the balance feels right, thanks to their range and a few good ships which can use them effectively).


explosion radius was added because missiles always hit. At the time they were overpowered in that sense that turrets had to deal with tracking.

HML and HAM are still viable platforms in PvP. Torps aren't so much anymore with kiting being the latest tactic.

They will do full damage if the target is an appropriate size.. If you expect to do full damage with a heavy missile to a frig it just won't happen- until he turns on the MWD.


You see it as a reason missiles suck in PvP, It's really just balance.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#731 - 2011-11-17 18:16:57 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:
900 dps is pretty great, much more than you can get under normal circumstances with a Tornado (in fact, more than its DPS at optimal range for most fits), and if you shoehorn on 3 BCUs or use Rage torpedoes effectively (rather than faction) this number can be much higher.


Rage needs dual painter support against most BS. Against other BCs, don't bother at all. Hail and Conflag can be used considerably more easily with careful manual piloting to reduce transversal. You cannot treat different weapons' high-damage T2 ammos as though they are identical, because they are not.

Torp Naga with DC and 2 BCS, faction ammo = 843 DPS.
Tornado with 3 gyros and DC, faction ammo = 878 DPS.
Oracle with 3 HS: 916 DPS

Sure, direct comparisons are tricky because you can drop the gyros for nanos or TEs, or drop HS for tank or a TE on the Oracle. But if you want a third BCS then there goes your DC on the Naga. But the point always stands - the torp Naga does not have anything like the raw DPS advantage that it would need to make up for the greater difficulty of application of torp damage. Remember, we're looking for a reason to fly the slowest, fattest t3 BC into tackle range. These DPS numbers, and difficulty of application of damage, make it not worth it. If it's not worth it for the Talos, it's certainly not worth it for the torp Naga.

Iam Widdershins wrote:
Your arguments about why the Naga is bad revolve entirely around its low EHP, which is a concern that is shared equally with the other new battlecruisers. This part of your argument is entirely invalid. Also, I have completely mauled battleships in a stand up fight with the torpedo Naga.


No, my argument for why the torp Naga was stupid was that it is much less effective against smaller targets than all the other t3 BCs, while having no commensurate advantage against BS. Well done for noticing that they all lack EHP and are all vulnerable to BS, but the torp Naga was probably the most vulnerable, being fat and slow.

Iam Widdershins wrote:
The Naga in fact deals the best against capital ships, because you can actually select damage type for their resist hole -- an advantage that puts it a step above even the Talos with neutron blasters.

And if it were really the least survivable platform, then it would suck even more now: now it has to get close to deal good damage with its blasters, or is stuck with very little tank out at 100+ dealing less damage than a good tachyon Oracle would.


Most capitals are armour tanked, Tornado selects Hail. Sure the selectable damage type is a plus, but any slight advantage against capitals is not enough to make up for the inferiorities at smaller scale.

At 100 km? Heh. I modelled this a few days ago. I'm a notorious missile spammer, did you wonder why I'm so keen on the rail Naga? Rail Naga ~700 DPS, tachyOracle ~575 DPS. Naga even has a slight EHP advantage. The rail Naga has an area in which it excels, something that cannot be said of the torp Naga.

Quote:
To summarize: Everything you wrote in this post was wrong.


Physician, heal thyself.

heavy missile naga lol Lol
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#732 - 2011-11-17 18:24:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Iam Widdershins wrote:

I'm not asking to have the explosion velocity bonus back. That's fine, it can do without. Just give double-quick missiles and +50% torpedo velocity; having 2 extra bonuses is no problem for a ship that has one of two mutually exclusive weapon systems.



Double quick missiles means 100% to torpedo velocity. Is that per level?

Throw that on top of another 50% and you now have long range torps but still will have a slow explosion velocity.. If you increase both you will have an overpowered ship because it'll be painted and abused to where these can hit cruisers at range for high DPS.

Do you see how knife-edge it is now?

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Alsyth
#733 - 2011-11-17 18:46:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Alsyth
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Why did you skip the rest or my post?


Because I feel like answering you is a waste of time most of the time.

Quote:
If you honestly think the majority of missile spammers look at a target's velocity or try to guess a sig radius you really might want to rethink that. Most, if not all but a few, target and shoot.


If you honestly think the majority of gunners look at a target's angular velocity or try to guess a sig radius you really might want to rethink that. Most, if not all but a few, target and shoot.

So...

Quote:
explosion radius was added because missiles always hit. At the time they were overpowered in that sense that turrets had to deal with tracking.


Missiles have to deal with target velocity which acts just like tracking, except it features velocity instead of angular velocity. A target at 0m/s will be hit for 100% damage by a turret REGARDLESS OF ITS SIZE (providing the shooting ship doesn't move). Never happen with missiles.

Being able to always hit doesn't matter in pvp, if you hit for 5% of your max damage. Fact is turrets can apply 100% damage MUCH easier than same sized missiles do.

Quote:
HML and HAM are still viable platforms in PvP. Torps aren't so much anymore with kiting being the latest tactic.


HML I know, I said so. HAM on range-unbonused ships are crap in most situation, they are just as easy to kite as torps.

Quote:
They will do full damage if the target is an appropriate size.. If you expect to do full damage with a heavy missile to a frig it just won't happen- until he turns on the MWD.


No. They will do full damage if the target is appropriate size AND if it is AWFULLY slow.
Almost no ship takes 100% damage from a missile of appropriate size if it goes at its base speed. You NEED painters and/or webbers to get a 100% effectiveness on ships of appropriate size, and you have no way to reduce transversal or improve you explosion velocity/speed with a module, only painters/webs/rigs.

With turrets, almost every ship of appropriate size takes full damage even if orbiting at base speed at realistic range.
You have modules to improve your tracking, you have ways to reduce transversal if you are a good pilot, and you still have painter/webs/rigs.
Fact is in most realistic situations you can hit targets one size smaller than your guns for full damage, unless they orbit you at insanely close range. And even then, a web and a tracking-bonused ammo and you can hit again for good damage unless it's an AB fit.



What do missiles have for them, then ?
-Full damage type selectivity, that's a big, good one, I admit.
-Ability to hit even at insanely close range... But for 1% of full damage? Does not matter in pvp (bar solo), almost useless in pve (drones are there for a reason).
-Immune to tracking disruptor. Well, if only there was a "expl radius/velocity booster", it would be imbalanced, but right now it's not.
-full damage through the whole range... if only they were able to apply it to their intended target as easily as turrets, it would be nice, but they can't.

Can't think of any other.
Iam Widdershins
Victory or Whatever
#734 - 2011-11-17 19:26:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Iam Widdershins
@Vincent Gaines:
I didn't say the missiles should just have a higher flight speed. I said that the hull should have a built in role bonus (not per level, one-time), doubling their flight speed and halving their flight time; the missiles have the same range, but get there twice as fast, giving it slightly better damage projection. Not a very major bonus, nor one that would make a large difference in many engagements, but I believe it is an important one.


Gypsio III wrote:
Rage needs dual painter support against most BS. Against other BCs, don't bother at all. Hail and Conflag can be used considerably more easily with careful manual piloting to reduce transversal. You cannot treat different weapons' high-damage T2 ammos as though they are identical, because they are not.

Torp Naga with DC and 2 BCS, faction ammo = 843 DPS.
Tornado with 3 gyros and DC, faction ammo = 878 DPS.
Oracle with 3 HS: 916 DPS

Yes, and the Naga does more damage than all of these (948 DPS with faction torpedoes); then it loses some damage because they're torpedoes, and then it gains some in effect because it can deal pure damage in any type.

You needn't bother spending all your time preaching at me about how different ammos and weapon types are used. I already know this, as do most of the people in this thread.



Quote:
No, my argument for why the torp Naga was stupid was that it is much less effective against smaller targets than all the other t3 BCs, while having no commensurate advantage against BS. Well done for noticing that they all lack EHP and are all vulnerable to BS, but the torp Naga was probably the most vulnerable, being fat and slow.

You obviously did not take the time to try out the torpedo Naga against its intended targets while you had the chance; it did tremendous damage against battleships with any kind of good skills, and even better against capital ships (with Rage). For all that you bash the Naga for being fat and slow, it also has the added advantage of survivability in that it does not have to worry about range or transversal very much while avoiding damage, since its missiles will find their way to its target on their own.


Quote:
Most capitals are armour tanked, Tornado selects Hail. Sure the selectable damage type is a plus, but any slight advantage against capitals is not enough to make up for the inferiorities at smaller scale.

At 100 km? Heh. I modelled this a few days ago. I'm a notorious missile spammer, did you wonder why I'm so keen on the rail Naga? Rail Naga ~700 DPS, tachyOracle ~575 DPS. Naga even has a slight EHP advantage. The rail Naga has an area in which it excels, something that cannot be said of the torp Naga.

Again, you are flagrantly ignoring the facts that

  1. I am not advocating the removal of hybrid bonuses from the Naga
  2. The Tornado needs to be very very close to the capital to deal its maximum damage
  3. The Tornado still does less damage than a Rage Naga

Model all you like, but you're still just making s+++ up when you don't listen to any of your opponent's arguments.


Quote:
heavy missile naga lol Lol

Laugh all you want, but it has been presented as a viable and capable alternative fitting for the ship; it is far faster than the Drake with a much smaller signature radius, while having the same range and dealing 14 percent more damage than the Drake in explosive, thermal, and EM damage profiles while the Drake only deals 9 percent more damage in the kinetic profile: allaround, better damage and maneuverability than the Drake, proving itself a very capable addition to the popular Drake and Nano-Drake fleets.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature

Iam Widdershins
Victory or Whatever
#735 - 2011-11-17 19:34:13 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Iam Widdershins wrote:
People are forgetting that the only original complaint about the Torpedo Naga was that it has difficulties applying the damage, i.e. torpedoes are slow. This is easy to fix with role bonuses that makes torpedoes reach their max range quicker rather than chugging along at the same speed as a MWDing Naga.

The only people who are excited for the Naga losing its missiles are pilots who prefer guns and hybrids, never really trained missiles, and are excited by the prospect of having 2 completely different ships with different tanks to choose from for their new Hybrid Gank Platform in the new expansion.

Meanwhile, everyone who's actually tried and enjoyed Torpedoes in PVP is left out in the cold, as are the majority of Caldari pilots who have simply trained for missiles.


ITS A SPLIT-WEAPON RACE. THAT MEANS YOU CAN'T "SIMPLY TRAIN MISSILES" AND EXPECT TO EXCEL IN EVERY SHIP.

Holy crap, what is wrong with Caldari pilots. You fly ships that are going to ues a mix of missiles and hybrids. You need to train both if you want to make use of every ship in your lineup. I don't ***** about how I can't fly a good torp phoon if I only trained projectiles. Legends of the Hidden Temple and Figure It Out: pres butan, train hybrids.

I'm not a Caldari pilot, hindclown. I'm primarily a Minmatar/Amarr pilot who would like to see a lot more missiles in PVP.

Tone down your frickin' rage. When you get mad at people for not understanding something because of false assumptions, you only make yourself look like an idiot.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature

Volunder
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#736 - 2011-11-17 20:17:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Volunder
It would seem there are ALOT of people that want to jump on the bandwagon of...Just cross-train...what's the big deal?

The Big Deal is this....

Majority of Caldari pilots train missiles first.......just as the majority of racial pilots train their primary weapon type first.....then at some point they will cross-train. But even after they cross-train their skills in secondary weapon type will almost never exceed their primary damage type...ie how many Minmatar pilots have better missile skills than projectiles?

So by being fortunate enough to have the ONLY tier 3 BC released in our secondary damage type. We obviously feel slighted. These ships are by far the most exciting part of this expansion and I know I speak for most low and mid SP Caldari pilots when I say I'm pretty disappointed.

Low SP pilots won't be able to fly the ship effectively at all....mid SP pilots such as myself (I only have t2 small hybrids...but have T2 torps) will have to fly the ship with T1 guns for 2 months ( OR LONGER unless your mapped for gunnery and don't mind scrapping whatever plans you had for the next 2 months). I

So in the end the folks that benefit are folks that are A) Hybrid Pilots - typically Gallente pilots or HIGH SP Caldari pilots or B) Minmatar/Amarr pilots who enjoy flaming low-mid SP Calari pilots who are excluded from fully enjoying the best part of this expansion.

Try to put the shoe on the other foot (ie if the Tornado or Oracle were missile boats?) ...Crucible comes out in 12 days....and T2 Torps now take 55 days to train (your mapped int/mem >.<).

But looking in the mirror is a lot tougher than flaming...
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#737 - 2011-11-17 20:38:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Volunder wrote:
It would seem there are ALOT of people that want to jump on the bandwagon of...Just cross-train...what's the big deal?

The Big Deal is this....

Majority of Caldari pilots train missiles first.......just as the majority of racial pilots train their primary weapon type first.....then at some point they will cross-train. But even after they cross-train their skills in secondary weapon type will almost never exceed their primary damage type...ie how many Minmatar pilots have better missile skills than projectiles?
.


I have 5 million in missiles and 6 million in gunnery. I almost only fly caldari with this character, occasionally gallente.

I began training hybrids as a noob in 06 when I had a Merlin.

I admit, I had a softspot for rails though.. it's why I chose the race (before learning it didn't matter) because when I was 11 I saw a miniseries called Earth Star Voyager and it somehow made me want to have an awesome railgun too :)

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Sigras
Conglomo
#738 - 2011-11-17 20:46:38 UTC
Phantomania wrote:
Fact- Caldari has more T1 Sub-Caps were Missile Launcher points outway Turret points = Missiles are Caldari's Primary Weapon!

Fact- Caldari has no T1 Sub-Cap Ship that can carry a FULL 8-Slot rack of BS sized Launchers, unlike the other races, which have each at least one BS that can boast 8 of their Primary BS sized weapon!

Fact- CCP needs to fix Caldari's Primary Weapon!

Fact- Naga is supposed to be a Missile Boat with fixed Missiles and decent Missile Bonus's!


Doesn't take a Genius!

Fact- All of the top tier caldari boats for every sub capital class are hybrid (Merlin, Moa, Rokh)
Fact- The Naga is the top tier caldari battlecruiser
Fact- Battlecruisers are sub capital
Fact- The Naga needs to be hybrid due to the transitive property of mathematics

QED

Now we can argue about whether or not tiers are a good idea at all but, that's the way it is right now, get used to it.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#739 - 2011-11-17 20:53:32 UTC
Wonders how many gallente pilots would cry this hard if the talos was switched from drones...

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#740 - 2011-11-17 21:14:25 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:



Quote:
heavy missile naga lol Lol

Laugh all you want, but it has been presented as a viable and capable alternative fitting for the ship; it is far faster than the Drake with a much smaller signature radius, while having the same range and dealing 14 percent more damage than the Drake in explosive, thermal, and EM damage profiles while the Drake only deals 9 percent more damage in the kinetic profile: allaround, better damage and maneuverability than the Drake, proving itself a very capable addition to the popular Drake and Nano-Drake fleets.




OK, going on this, how about if we ask CCP to keep Naga as is w/ current bonus's & add the 8 launcher hardpoints but with no bonus's, no CPU/PG reduction for SML.

This way it remains a Large Hybrid Turret boat capable of fitting HMLs or HALs as an interesting alt for the Drake!

Wouldn't this be reasonable?