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Battlecruiser Redux
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Black Canary Jnr
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2013-10-23 17:05:39 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Drake vs caracal 700dps to 500dps ish
Harbinger vs maller 750 -850 dps to 500 dps ish
etc...etc.... that doesn't even include ABC's doing 1200dps potentially...


What the heck are you fitting on your maller?

I get 250ish with t2 pulses and faction multi freq. How people can come up with a DPS number double what i can achieve baffles me completely, especially when i'm only missing rf 5 and 2 levels of pulse specialisation and 2 levels of surgical strike which makes ... 12%?
Periapsis Retrograde Burn
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2013-10-23 17:30:21 UTC
Black Canary Jnr wrote:

What the heck are you fitting on your maller?

I get 250ish with t2 pulses and faction multi freq. How people can come up with a DPS number double what i can achieve baffles me completely, especially when i'm only missing rf 5 and 2 levels of pulse specialisation and 2 levels of surgical strike which makes ... 12%?


All V Maller w/ 5x Heavy Pulse Laser II (overheated) w/ Imperial Navy Multifrequency, 1 T2 Heat Sink and 2 Warrior IIs = 415 DPS
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#23 - 2013-10-23 17:46:32 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Drake vs caracal 700dps to 500dps ish
Harbinger vs maller 750 -850 dps to 500 dps ish
etc...etc.... that doesn't even include ABC's doing 1200dps potentially...

I'm not sure where you're getting some of your numbers from, but the Drake will do around 664 DPS with T2 HAMs and 4x T2 ballistic controllers, and that's at a dismal range of 16.9km (full skills). By comparison, the Tengu will do well over 800 DPS at twice that range and a Raven will do over 1200 DPS with T2 torpedoes at 25.3km. Adding the ability to have 2 (unbonused) torpedo launchers will only add about 125-140 DPS with the same 16.9km range. That's hardly earth-shattering. Again, the comparison is with existing Battleships and Attack Battlecruisers.


Using buffer tanked PvP-fits
Caracal: 400+ dps, 20k+ tank.
Drake: 550+ dps, 70k+ tank.

Rupture: 450+ dps, 25k+ tank.
Hurricane: 600+ dps, 45k+ tank.

Maller: 350+ dps, 40k+ tank.
Harbringer: 700+ dps, 70k+ tank.

In most cases, BC's have about 50-100% more EHP and 25-50% more dps.

Now, you started talking about t3's... which haven't been rebalanced and the dev's have openly stated they plan to nerf them.
You could bring up HACs, which are moderately in line with BC's on power level.

BC's are much tougher than cruisers in general... they do more dps... and fit well on the power spectrum. Before the cruiser/BC rebalances, there was almost no reason to fly a cruiser, as BC's were not terribly more expensive and brought overwhelming advantages above cruisers. Now, BC's still have significant advantages over cruisers, but also solid drawbacks (mainly speed). This creates a fairly nice in game balance, and your suggestion screws it up for no good reasons.
Tikitina
Doomheim
#24 - 2013-10-23 18:26:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tikitina
Icarus Able wrote:
Tikitina wrote:
To be honest, the med turret BCs are actually Heavy Cruisers.
Only the Lg turret BCs are true BCs, in the classical sense.





This is spaceships not classical at all really.



BCs are fine where they are they get more tank and gank than cruisers while being slower. They do their job fine and i see no reason to change them. Your idea is awful.


Ha! No change was suggested.

But, in a fictional classical retro-progressive renaissance sense 30,000 years from now, change is good.


Adapt or die!
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#25 - 2013-10-23 18:54:04 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
BC's are much tougher than cruisers in general... they do more dps... and fit well on the power spectrum. Before the cruiser/BC rebalances, there was almost no reason to fly a cruiser, as BC's were not terribly more expensive and brought overwhelming advantages above cruisers. Now, BC's still have significant advantages over cruisers, but also solid drawbacks (mainly speed). This creates a fairly nice in game balance, and your suggestion screws it up for no good reasons.

It's a 20% increase in DPS (max), offset against a trade-off of less tank if one goes this route. I don't see how simply offering a choice screws things up. It's still not going to be a ABC or a battleship.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#26 - 2013-10-23 19:20:58 UTC
culo duro wrote:
Combat Battlecruiser are:
Bigger Cruiser - Not small Battleships, (BattleCruiser)

The difference:
They're slower than regular cruisers, in exchange for a bigger tank.
They do more damage, in exchange for being a large hull so they can be hit easier.



Besides i get what you're saying, and the answer is simple:
If you gotta go do a small-scale engagement or missions, it's easier to skill into a Battlecruiser from a Cruiser, than to go for a Battleship, and large guns.

Battlecruiser are simply just the 3rd wheel.
That doesn't mean that they don't have a purpose though, it just means that they're better than Cruisers in scenarios where you'd need a battleship but can't fly it good enough.

Besides that i personally think that Battlecruisers currently are in a good shape overall.


Battleship

Battlecruiser

Sorry, I had to.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#27 - 2013-10-23 19:36:13 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
BC's are much tougher than cruisers in general... they do more dps... and fit well on the power spectrum. Before the cruiser/BC rebalances, there was almost no reason to fly a cruiser, as BC's were not terribly more expensive and brought overwhelming advantages above cruisers. Now, BC's still have significant advantages over cruisers, but also solid drawbacks (mainly speed). This creates a fairly nice in game balance, and your suggestion screws it up for no good reasons.

It's a 20% increase in DPS (max), offset against a trade-off of less tank if one goes this route. I don't see how simply offering a choice screws things up. It's still not going to be a ABC or a battleship.


First off, every viable PvP setup I posted had well over a 20% increase in dps from frigate to BC..
Second, the values I posted were reasonable and conservative.

I bet you'd put a gun in drake's utility high if they let you. I have a suspicion your setups are.... special. As in, short-but special. It really sounds like your suggesting BC damage bonuses get applied to large weapons and gain a fitting bonus to fit large weapons. But only enough of a reduction so they can fit two of them... And for some asinine reason, you think players will only fit two of them. Most battlecruisers are not balanced with large weapons in mind... you see 10% damage bonuses (which no t1 battleship gets).

Also, BC's don't have much extra PG/CPU to work with to "upgrade" to your large weapons.

Your proposal just doesn't make sense....


Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#28 - 2013-10-23 19:58:16 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
I bet you'd put a gun in drake's utility high if they let you. I have a suspicion your setups are.... special. As in, short-but special. It really sounds like your suggesting BC damage bonuses get applied to large weapons and gain a fitting bonus to fit large weapons. But only enough of a reduction so they can fit two of them... And for some asinine reason, you think players will only fit two of them. Most battlecruisers are not balanced with large weapons in mind... you see 10% damage bonuses (which no t1 battleship gets).

Also, BC's don't have much extra PG/CPU to work with to "upgrade" to your large weapons.

Your proposal just doesn't make sense....

The Drake has a utility slot? Lol
I'm not suggesting BC damage bonuses get applied to large weapons, and I was fairly specific on that (no). I'm just suggesting a fitting bonus so they could fit a few larger weapon turrets or launchers. And yes, I think that if you found a way to fit 3-4 of these on a standard BC you'd redefine "glass cannon". But without any bonuses it would be more glass and less cannon.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#29 - 2013-10-23 20:08:55 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
I bet you'd put a gun in drake's utility high if they let you. I have a suspicion your setups are.... special. As in, short-but special. It really sounds like your suggesting BC damage bonuses get applied to large weapons and gain a fitting bonus to fit large weapons. But only enough of a reduction so they can fit two of them... And for some asinine reason, you think players will only fit two of them. Most battlecruisers are not balanced with large weapons in mind... you see 10% damage bonuses (which no t1 battleship gets).

Also, BC's don't have much extra PG/CPU to work with to "upgrade" to your large weapons.

Your proposal just doesn't make sense....

The Drake has a utility slot? Lol
I'm not suggesting BC damage bonuses get applied to large weapons, and I was fairly specific on that (no). I'm just suggesting a fitting bonus so they could fit a few larger weapon turrets or launchers. And yes, I think that if you found a way to fit 3-4 of these on a standard BC you'd redefine "glass cannon". But without any bonuses it would be more glass and less cannon.


Fit a bunch of reactor controls and ACR rigs and you can put 3 Dual Heavy pulse laser II's on your harby.... no need for a change.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#30 - 2013-10-23 20:15:44 UTC
My talos is running at 960dps using null, who are you calling anemic?!
With fun button and within 10k of a ratting carrier, that's going up to 1600 Pirate

I admit though that te talos is slightly special.

Besides that, two battlecruisers in scramrange murder about anything there is, the gank/tank ratio is just to awesome considering their pricetag.
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#31 - 2013-10-24 07:48:18 UTC
Would you prefer if we just used the real world equivalent and called them heavy cruisers? The problem there is that heavy cruisers are already a thing.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#32 - 2013-10-24 08:13:55 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Drake vs caracal 700dps to 500dps ish
Harbinger vs maller 750 -850 dps to 500 dps ish
etc...etc.... that doesn't even include ABC's doing 1200dps potentially...

I'm not sure where you're getting some of your numbers from, but the Drake will do around 664 DPS with T2 HAMs and 4x T2 ballistic controllers, and that's at a dismal range of 16.9km (full skills).


Found your problem. He gets his numbers from implants and pimp modules vs your t2 mods with no implants.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
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