Intergalactic Summit

Ms Vea,

there is no such thing as tradition for the sake of tradition which I would approve of. Even less so obedience for the sake of obedience. Or silly forms of conduct. The sort of brain-dead circumstance certain “loyalist” entities have become famous for. Because how can you be obedient to one who betrays the principles he was destined to stand for? But how, on the other hand, can you break with a tradition that preserves this very principles?

The abolition of the Council of Apostles was completely motivated by a self-serving political agenda; give me one proof from the Scriptures that favours it. Give me one religious reason. But no religious reasons stand for it, but all against it. The Council of Apostles was made of men, many of them were holy men, many were strong, some were weak, some even corrupted. But you can see the difference: The Council of Apostles might have been weak in times of confrontation, it has erred in political matters, but it has never fallen prey to blasphemy. Their errors were errors of men against men, while today’s ruling bodies sin against the Lord and men alike.

Maybe there has been a misunderstanding, the so called “Moral Reforms” were not a response to the Mad Emperor. He declared himself God-like, and altered the Scriptures. He was removed by St. Tetrimon, who continues to be one of the greatest champions of our religion. The Theology Council and Heideran V later just “recycled” and re-used the Mad Emperor's ideas.


There is no real contradiction. God is wrathful and merciful because he is just. His tolerance with the sinner is limited, while his love for the faithful is limitless. Many examples and quotes from the Scriptures have revealed this characteristics of the Lord to us.

I have to consult the Scriptures of the order to answer your question with precision. It might also be a later addition. As a general rule, you should treat all the “official” versions of the Scriptures, which bear the emblem of the Theology Council, and especially passages about the emperors, with utmost scrutiny.

We all know the Scriptures are expanded every day. Right now, somewhere on Khanid Prime perhaps, a little baby is born and its name is inscribed into the Book of Records. Also St. Ardo’s last written words were transcribed in the unsullied version of the Scriptures, and the late grandmaster only died a few years ago. There is no standstill. This is not the question. But a true believer cannot ever and under no circumstances accept schismatic and criminal forgery of what is our most holy.

And one more point. All those who claim that this or that was generally accepted or this or that is just another unimportant opinion, shall ask history and their conscience. Why did half the population stood up against Heideran V? Why did they volunteer to be killed on the battlefields? For what? For their righteous beliefs. For the blood of their ancestors. And for God.

With kind regards,
Odelya Negin Intourtsetseg of House d’Hanguest

Actually, Lady Odelya, I do have to point out something I mentioned earlier. The Council of Apostles certainly did delve into heresies, even by their own standards. There are Scriptural accounts which stress obedience to the throne, but there is one Deeply into heresy. So deep it rather defined heresy and led indirectly to the Moral Reforms.

The Mad Emperor was Emperor when being Emperor was to be leader of the Council of Apostles. And that Emperor, more than any other, showed how far heresy can go when you are the total arbiter of the faith above all your people and dole it out as you see fit.

He liberally reprinted Scriptures, not just re-translating or viewing them from new angles, but literally writing his own version of Scriptural events and accounts, then canonizing them. Often, he decided to not even try to change the Scripture and simply contradicted it by decree. He aspired to Godhood itself and drained the Empire dry trying to achieve his insane visions. It was Tetrimon himself, his own flesh and blood, that finally removed him.

Other than that, I would say you should treat any version of the Scriptures handed to you, especially if they do not bear the Theology Council's logo, with studious discipline. Imagine if we had simply taken the Mad Emperor at his word and taken his alterations as the gospel. Whether it is the Theology Council or anyone else, you want to return to the source material and translate it directly as best you can, then interpret it yourself. Then bring it forward for review, so that you can share and disseminate your knowledge to see whether it checks out with the current canon or if not. It's important that we are all taking part in this.

We have to free ourselves from political thinking about the Scriptures. I think to place any issue on the Theology Council or even Council of Apostles that preceded them does them disservices; they are simply organizations tasked with trying to advance our Scriptural knowledge. The Theology Council is a bit more egalitarian about it, letting most of the common people do their own work on it, but that doesn't mean the Theology Council is a perfect institution. No small group of us has the manpower or resources to truly understand God's will, or we would have done it already and advanced as a species. I suspect it will take much more even than we currently have working within the Amarr Empire.

Fair arbiters or not, we can't blame any organization for us not understanding the Scriptures. God did not tell us that it is our job to sit and wait for some sect among us to do all the hard theological work and get back to us with the results. God gave us this as his commandment, that we all work to understand and spread the Word. In the grand scheme of things, that means the great arbiters of Scriptural doctrine will be us. All of us. And we have no one to blame for it but ourselves if we fail.

Obedience to the throne cannot substitute and must not contradict obedience to the Lord. If the two contradict each other, it is not the throne which is to be followed.

The Mad Emperor did everything do circumcise the power of the Council of Apostles. He was not ruling with the Council of Apostles, but against it. He usurped it, and the throne, violently silencing any opposition to him. And, as you know, after his removal his decrees were reversed, his icons were destroyed, and Mezagorm was abandoned. So, I am fully aware of what you write about the Mad Emperor. But what has this to do with the alleged “heresies” of the Council of Apostles?


I don’t blame the TC for this. I accuse it of corrupting the Scriptures, partly using the sullied verses of the Mad Emperor, and inventing new ones, that justify the tyranny of spurious usurpers—and I have provided evidence for this, the history books speak volumes about it. They know very well what they are doing, but still, they are doing it.


You cannot demand that we have to free ourselves from political thinking of the Scriptures, when the Scriptures were altered out of political reasons. The TC is a bit more egalitarian about this too… How can you trust in a false version of the Scriptures? You know very well what you are doing, but still, you are doing it.

You claim we cannot fully understand God’s will, but can we, who do not understand, just manipulate it as easily? This is sacrilegious and while I promote open theological debates and disapprove of obdurateness, I have to be unforgiving and strict when it come to the fundamentals of our beliefs, the foundations upon which Amarr was build. It cannot simply be redesigned at the whim of an emperor lusting for power.


How do you know which scriptures His Majesty has on his desk? For all what I know is that they are certainly not the ones issued by the TC. You will know that the TC holds no authority within the Kingdom. But better leave His Majesty out of this, it is not his legitimacy or claims we are discussing here. If you wish to do so, do it somewhere else.

It is not necessarily the “winning side” that God favours and upon which his light shines. Or do you claim that the Lord blessed the Minmatar Rebellion in any way? Or do you claim that those who kicked Dano Gheinok out of Assimia were the ones the Lord favoured? It is amusing that the commandant of PAUX adheres to this kind of childish superstition.

Kind regards,
Odelya Negin Intourtsetseg of House d’Hanguest

The Sabik Dochuta Karsoth was court chamberlain during the reign of both Heideran VII and Doriam II. The TC apparently didn't notice something about him. And it was the Royal Khanid Navy which finally captured him.

And Jamyl Sarum, whose legitimacy is questioned by many, is still empress. Any discussion is silenced. The TC will always fail to stop those ruling through lies and terror, because it has no interest in doing so. It is part of the scheme, not part of the solution. Not individual failure, which is only human, matters here, but the structure of power itself. The TC is a mere mouthpiece of the emperors, blind obedience to the ones in power, not service to the Lord, is what matters to them.


The Council of Apostles was among the first institutions established by Amash-Akura himself.

Kind regards,
Odelya Negin Intourtsetseg of House d’Hanguest

You have to remember that the Mad Emperor was of the Council of Apostles, not against them at first. He was essentially their leader, the first among them, and a product of theirs. The problem with the Council of Apostles, therefore, was that they were ill-equipped to deal with this sort of thing. Whereas the Theology Council is a fairly conservative legal institution which checks heresies by comparing them to the Scripture and deciding what ideas are inherently heretical, the Council of Apostles really had nothing in place to say that the Mad Emperor was mad. It took Tetrimon openly defying the law to stop him and to return the Apostles to their position.

Since then, civic authorities have been wary of that system. Most, as Vea pointed out, would prefer us to have a Privy Council and a Theology Council and have them watch each other rather than have one organization doing both jobs and policing itself.

It wasn't as if the Theology Council materialized their additions out of thin air, though. They went through the library and combined pieces of books we already had into new Scriptures. They looked at precisely the same materials the Apostles did and declared that several pieces of ecclesiastical work were Scriptural where the Apostles looked at those same pieces and called them simple government decrees or stories. To their credit, unlike the Apostles, the Theology Council makes the libraries available to all the public who are interested in archaeological work and allows them to check their translation and interpretation. Should the Theology Council be wrong, any average citizen can put through a review and petition the Council to look at their work. That wasn't the case with the Apostles. So if the dogma is inherently wrong, you shouldn't post the materials to us. Scriptural law changes all the time due to people with an interest in Scripture going to the Council.

One of the reasons you haven't been declared a heretic is because your views may fall within the realm of acceptable translation, if not Theology Council dogma. There's a difference between a questionable view they don't agree with and heresy. Disliking the administration is questionable, disavowing Scripture isn't.

Yes, yes, he was acting covertly, a vicious individual acting as the head of a rotten institution, but that was not my reasoning. As I have pointed out that individual failure might happen everywhere. The problem is structural. A schismatic institution has no legitimacy, the question thus is irrelevant.

I cannot give you numbers. Public survey on this matter do not happen weekly in the Empire. Anyhow, capsuleers tend to be more outspoken, because we enjoy certain privileges. If a commoner would—contrary to what Constantin claims—speak out his opinions, he might be punished mercilessly or even loose his life. And this question isn’t about majorities. If the whole universe would be against you and you are still right, would it make you wrong? Truth is not like that.


It wasn’t just an emperor who established it, it was Amash-Akura. He was emperor and prophet, the most revered by all, and nobody can claim his authority. It is a misconception stemming from the so called “Moral Reforms” that the emperor can do as he pleases. He cannot. He is bound to the laws of the Lord, sanctified tradition and customs, and where they are not applicable or contradict the laws of the Scriptures, reason. And neither the laws of the Lord, traditions and customs, nor reason dictated the abolition of the Council of Apostles and replacing it with a schismatic, treasonous and blaspheming entity which is a bootlicking mouthpiece at the right of the heretic usurping Athra’s holy throne.



Only in theory anyone could rise to this position, in practice it was limited. We are talking about a real society here, not an utopian science-fiction scenario. It was not only Lord X who was leading his troops into battle against the usurper hoping to become the next emperor… It were myriads of commoners, volunteering, sacrificing their lives for what they deemed right and just. They had no claim to power, but they had faith.

Any proof for this assumption?

Or any proof for this one?

I have recently been declared a heretic by some decaying self-appointed inquisitors. I don’t give a ****.

Kind regards,
Odelya Negin Intourtsetseg of House d’Hanguest

I wasn't questioning his claims. You were the one who brought ancestry into the question.

You present an argument that focuses on the premise that the Moral Reforms were wrong. Your King's family was instrumental in creating those Moral Reforms and the position he inherited owes its existence to the moment that his forces destroyed the Council of Apostles. Some of my ancestors were in his fleet when it crushed the Council of Apostles and their heresy, it is a proud moment in Khashour family history.

Come to think of it, where were your ancestors when the Moral Reforms were decided on the battlefield? I somehow doubt they were on the side of the Council of Apostles, given that families that were on the wrong side did not tend to get large land grants in the years of prosperity and expansion that followed.

Given that she is a Khanid Kingdom vassal instead of one of the other families, she doesn't need to worry about the Theology Council. At least, not until further steps of reunification are made. In fact, thanks to CONCORD's over-protection of Capsuleer independence, she does not need to worry about the authorities almost at all. Otherwise she would not be so free with her heretical ramblings.

That said, in the Empire there is no question that her beliefs are heretical. The Tetrimon is an illegal order, its assets were destroyed and it was disbanded in the Empire. Anyone who makes the Tetrimonic argument after they were outlawed is by definition a Heretic.

Would you consider the Matari Slave Rebellion and the Jove War defeat examples of God’s approval of the Theology Council? Unless my knowledge is lacking prior to 23216 AD the Holy Amarr Empire had racked up an impressive record of conquests prior to the damaging quintet of corrupt administrative policies that are the true legacy of Heideran V.

Since the abolishment of the Council Of Apostles, the creation of the Privy Council, the creation of the Theology Council, the creation of the five heir families exclusive claim to the Imperial Throne, and the so called “Moral Reforms” that empowered it all the Amarr Empire has lost dominion over large swaths of space and people they had controlled for many millennia.

Do you really blame this on the wickedness of God's chosen people? Can you find no fault in how the empire has been administered under this historical anomaly of royal families?

Using your template: the acts of God, the exact opposite conclusion to the one you reached seems more plausible. Loss of stature, loss of territory, loss of slave populations, and the need to ally with the Godless Caldari does not look like the record of an ascendant empire. Of course this is my humble opinion. If you have facts to help me achieve better clarity I would be receptive to them.

Thank you for the correction. I will research that belief system. I should have said Godless Caldari State. I often make the error of speaking too generally and offend others inadvertently, I am working to overcome this.