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Nosygamer's analysis of indirect RMT via Lottery Sites (SOMER etc.)

First post First post
Author
Prince Kobol
#41 - 2013-10-22 13:49:09 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Why is this still under discussion?

CCP is guilty as sin of profiteering and their not apologizing for it.

Get over it.


Thanks for your valuable input, was very interesting and will be given much thought.

In fact I will contemplate your input over the next hour as I go and pick my daughter up from school Big smile
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#42 - 2013-10-22 13:51:51 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Why is this still under discussion?

CCP is guilty as sin of profiteering and their not apologizing for it.

Get over it.


Thanks for your valuable input, was very interesting and will be given much thought.

In fact I will contemplate your input over the next hour as I go and pick my daughter up from school Big smile


You don't need to contemplate it, just take it as fact.

Not today spaghetti.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#43 - 2013-10-22 13:54:00 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Why is this still under discussion?

CCP is guilty as sin of profiteering and their not apologizing for it.

Get over it.


So when TMC, En24, and just about any blogger with a website sets up their own competing GTC referral / gambling site, that will be OK as well.
Frying Doom
#44 - 2013-10-22 13:54:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Prince Kobol wrote:


Nope because what you are doing is not chanced base.

As I have said before it is a fine line but there you go.

Also why is it now a problem?

Somer has been running for 3+ now yet all of a sudden its bad?

Its not like they have been hiding in the shadows is it.

Chance based means that if I buy 50% of the tickets I will win 50% of the time. So based on that we will simplify as this is how probability works over large sets of numbers but simplified 50% works as follows. I buy 50% of the tickets to a Raven Navy issue 49,000,000 per blink a total prize of 670,320,000 ISK with 16 slots. You will notice that the total of all blink slots is 784,000,000 isk, so Somer is taking their cut of 113,680,000 isk or 7,105,000 per slot.

the 50% of the Raven Naval Issue tickets costs me 392,000,000 isk but I lose, so I do it again and it costs me another 392,000,000 and I win.

So I am down 784,000,000 isk but win 670,320,000 the money is now sent to me as isk in game.

A lottery based on probability will come out exactly as per the probability its self over a large set of numbers which enough GTC purchasers would be doing especially if they use the smaller lotteries. Always buy 50% of the tickets you will average out to win 50% of the time.

So as I said Somer is RMT, you just seem to mistake a laundering process to be valid method for RMT. It is not it is still RMT.

The amount of time they have been RMTing is irrelevant, it does not make it legitimate.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

RAW23
#45 - 2013-10-22 13:55:38 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
RAW23 wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

The problem is that it is not true.

Once you your 200mil isk credit you have to spend it on blinks and win to get it back.

Can you 100% convert your 200mil credit to 200mil isk.. no.

Even if you manage to blink on all the available slots you still do not get your 200mil back.


Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you really think that adding in a small mechanism of chance is all it takes to stop something being RMT? You would be fine with swapping isk for RL cash if on one in every hundred transactions, determined randomly, the isk seller didn't pay up?


Yes because as you say its chanced base.

Its is a very fine line but there it is.


Why on earth do you think this extremely fine line has any relevance to the legitimacy of RMT? If you think RMT is fine in these circumstances then surely you have no grounds for rejecting it in other circumstances. Perhaps you just have no problem with RMT at all? Personally, I have no principled objection to it as a bare act. What I would strongly object to is the condemnation of such acts for the masses and then its allowance for a small group who have found a loophole of the type that CCP would normally laugh at, invoking the spirit rather than the letter of the law.

Note - the chance element can be finessed to such an extent as to make it completely meaningless. If I say that the odds of me not paying out are one in a trillion or one in some power of a trillion then the 'get out' is still there but it makes the operation functionally identical to simple isk selling.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.

Frying Doom
#46 - 2013-10-22 13:58:35 UTC
RAW23 wrote:


Why on earth do you think this extremely fine line has any relevance to the legitimacy of RMT? If you think RMT is fine in these circumstances then surely you have no grounds for rejecting it in other circumstances. Perhaps you just have no problem with RMT at all? Personally, I have no principled objection to it as a bare act. What I would strongly object to is the condemnation of such acts for the masses and then its allowance for a small group who have found a loophole of the type that CCP would normally laugh at, invoking the spirit rather than the letter of the law.

Note - the chance element can be finessed to such an extent as to make it completely meaningless. If I say that the odds of me not paying out are one in a trillion or one in some power of a trillion then the 'get out' is still there but it makes the operation functionally identical to simple isk selling.

Actually this RMT is against the rules for ETCs and GTCs. It is covered as a breach of the ToS.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
#47 - 2013-10-22 14:06:39 UTC
OMG BRILLIANT!

I am going to do this as well because **** this whole thing. I have enough liars in my daily routine

Primary Test Subject • SmackTalker Elite

Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#48 - 2013-10-22 14:15:18 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Why is this still under discussion?

CCP is guilty as sin of profiteering and their not apologizing for it.

Get over it.


So when TMC, En24, and just about any blogger with a website sets up their own competing GTC referral / gambling site, that will be OK as well.


Hope it will half reason im still in this game because i wasted money on it selling Mina and rest of my chars legally is best gift CCP can give me.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2013-10-22 14:19:16 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Why is this still under discussion?

CCP is guilty as sin of profiteering and their not apologizing for it.

Get over it.


So when TMC, En24, and just about any blogger with a website sets up their own competing GTC referral / gambling site, that will be OK as well.

as long as they stay inside EULA/ToS i'm ok with it.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#50 - 2013-10-22 14:20:55 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
RAW23 wrote:
Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you really think that adding in a small mechanism of chance is all it takes to stop something being RMT? You would be fine with swapping isk for RL cash if on one in every hundred transactions, determined randomly, the isk seller didn't pay up?


Yes because as you say its chanced base.

Its is a very fine line but there it is.


So the trick of filling a ship with valuable loot, shooting it with an alt, and looting the contents to launder in-game assets for RMT isn't actually RMT, becuase the loot fairy is a random element?

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#51 - 2013-10-22 14:23:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Why is this still under discussion?

CCP is guilty as sin of profiteering and their not apologizing for it.

Get over it.


So when TMC, En24, and just about any blogger with a website sets up their own competing GTC referral / gambling site, that will be OK as well.


Hope it will half reason im still in this game because i wasted money on it selling Mina and rest of my chars legally is best gift CCP can give me.
You can't sell your characters as far as I can tell, because that would be against the character trading rules.
However.
You could trade your characters for isk on the forum through the normal methods, then give away your isk as credit in a knocked together lottery site, signing yourself up as an affiliate to a legit GTC trader.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

stoicfaux
#52 - 2013-10-22 14:27:31 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Chance based? Why are we assuming chance is involved? If we're cynical about this, then:

For the little guy, it's a lottery and chance is involved.

For the big clients, i.e. criminal organizations i.e. professional RMT businesses, I wouldn't be surprised if the "odds" are manipulated to ensure certain parties get paid X amount of isk.

Meaning, if you go to a certain RMT site and pay a bit more for a GTC (i.e. above the market average for GTCs,) then you are guaranteed to "win" an exact amount of isk. E.g. if I pay $45 for a GTC and I'm guaranteed to "win" 2 billion isk in prizes, then I paid $10 for 2 billion isk (plus the standard $35 for the GTC.)

Who audits SOMERBlink's lottery process to ensure that this isn't happening?



note: to be clear, I'm not saying that this is happening. What I am saying is that there's enough money in MMO RMT to attract the attention of organized crime who will set this sort of thing up.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#53 - 2013-10-22 14:38:51 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
RAW23 wrote:
Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you really think that adding in a small mechanism of chance is all it takes to stop something being RMT? You would be fine with swapping isk for RL cash if on one in every hundred transactions, determined randomly, the isk seller didn't pay up?


Yes because as you say its chanced base.

Its is a very fine line but there it is.


So the trick of filling a ship with valuable loot, shooting it with an alt, and looting the contents to launder in-game assets for RMT isn't actually RMT, becuase the loot fairy is a random element?

30 plex in an ibis hull

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#54 - 2013-10-22 15:12:12 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Why is this still under discussion?

CCP is guilty as sin of profiteering and their not apologizing for it.

Get over it.


CCP sold game time for money.

This is a thing that MMO companies do.

If you want to criticise them for letting Somer "profiteer", then have at it, but what CCP did in this case is called "selling a product or service that they provide".

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Xavier Higdon
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-10-22 15:21:15 UTC
I must have ties to a criminal organization that I didn't know about. With 1.2 Billion ISK deposited to SOMERblink I have made 2.2 Billion in ISK and assets. That 1.2 Billion includes blinks I have won and redeemed for blink credits. I'm so criminal I didn't even know it myself.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#56 - 2013-10-22 15:23:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Malcanis wrote:
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Why is this still under discussion?

CCP is guilty as sin of profiteering and their not apologizing for it.

Get over it.


CCP sold game time for money.

This is a thing that MMO companies do.

If you want to criticise them for letting Somer "profiteer", then have at it, but what CCP did in this case is called "selling a product or service that they provide".
Kinda missing the point, like by a lot.
We don;t care than CCP make money, that's fine.
We care that Somer uses their piles of isk to generate income by giving it to people to go through them. That's RMT.
We all have piles of isk in varying degrees, so we can all turn them into isk right? Wrong. Apparently Somer gets some kind of pass that nobody else gets, all because if they don't let Somer do it, they'll make a little less cash.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#57 - 2013-10-22 15:30:04 UTC
At $1,75 commission per PLEX they have to be the cheapest RMT setup I've ever seen Lol

In any case, the solution is simple. Prohibit the rewarding of people using your affiliate link. Entire thing is fixed and we can all whine about something else.

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Jori McKie
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2013-10-22 15:41:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Jori McKie
Lucas Kell wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Why is this still under discussion?

CCP is guilty as sin of profiteering and their not apologizing for it.

Get over it.


CCP sold game time for money.

This is a thing that MMO companies do.

If you want to criticise them for letting Somer "profiteer", then have at it, but what CCP did in this case is called "selling a product or service that they provide".
Kinda missing the point, like by a lot.
We don;t care than CCP make money, that's fine.
We care that Somer uses their piles of isk to generate income by giving it to people to go through them. That's RMT.
We all have piles of isk in varying degrees, so we can all turn them into isk right? Wrong. Apparently Somer gets some kind of pass that nobody else gets, all because if they don't let Somer do it, they'll make a little less cash.


^^ This a 1000 times, i will happily trade my ingame stuff for real money, if CCP allows the mechanic SOMER currently uses for everbody else. What the hell, right now it is legal by CCP rules.



TigerXtrm wrote:
At $1,75 commission per PLEX they have to be the cheapest RMT setup I've ever seen Lol

In any case, the solution is simple. Prohibit the rewarding of people using your affiliate link. Entire thing is fixed and we can all whine about something else.

You didn't read the link did you? It is not like $1,75 per plex. It is buy a GTC via my affilate link and get 200m extra. So more $1,75 per 200m ......

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar

Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2013-10-22 15:53:54 UTC
Even Ripard Teg proved it in a recent post about Eve Vegas.

Quote:
In addition, everyone who participated in the PvP event received 200 million ISK in Blink credit, and those 250 PvP winners received an additional billion ISK in Blink credit. The first group was almost certainly 300 people or more, so let's call it 300. That's 60 billion in Blink credit. The winners received another 250 billion. And all of these numbers are rather conservative. It's likely SOMER Blink pumped some 750 or 800 billion ISK in PLEXes and credit into this event. That's a very strong show of support.
(http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2013/10/sponsor-and-gamble.html)

Directly connecting "credit" to an equal value of isk. If the 2 currencies were really disconnected, then it wouldn't make sense to do any sort of conversion to combine them.

By establishing a connection you show a link to figures and how they are related.

Because of that, it's shown as RMT.

Which is bad.

But, which is also none of our business.

Because we do not have all the facts. Just suppositions as to how it CAN be.

So get your tinfoils hats out people because some people are going to flat out be smarter than others.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2013-10-22 15:58:43 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
And it is a surprise to no one that CCP are knowingly allowing RMT for people like somer


Thats because it isn't RMT Big smile

Since you can convert the blinks into isk with 100% if thats true and you can have CCP convert the GTC into plex which convert into isk as well you end up with:

GTC purchase -> Plex -> isk
7 dollars to Somer -> Blinks -> isk

First line legit
Second line RMT

You'll probably say well Somer would get that 7 dollars anyway but they wouldn't because they wouldn't be selling as many GTC without selling the Isk.


The problem is that it is not true.

Once you your 200mil isk credit you have to spend it on blinks and win to get it back.

Can you 100% convert your 200mil credit to 200mil isk.. no.

Even if you manage to blink on all the available slots you still do not get your 200mil back.



Come to my store to buy your 12 packs and receive 1 free scratcher lottery ticket with every purchase!

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.