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Missions & Complexes

 
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Do missions need a revamp?

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Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#181 - 2013-10-11 14:55:00 UTC
But if you minmatar or caldari u dont have to worry about what enemies you face becuase u can just choose the damage type that those enemies are weakest to.

Why should amarr and maybe gallente (idk i dont fly gallente but ive heard they do ki/therm) get shafted and be able to do missions less quickly or less frequently than the other races. Thats imbalanaced.

And if you mean that buzz kill is a hard mission that takes a long time, it doesn't just burn away from the frigs and hit them at range.

and for the record i have lasers almost maxed out up to large it only makes a difference in level 1,2 and 3 missions as i said before. But in level 4 missions guristas and angels resists to em/therm are so high it takes a very long time to bring a single ship down. meaning u take enemy dps for longer, meaning more drain on ur capacitor for your active tank, meaning the mission is obviously harder.

And i did not say anything about ECM i dont care about ECM i was on about their resistances.

Lumirinne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#182 - 2013-10-11 17:53:19 UTC
(I meant Buzzkill as 'something that makes an enjoyable encounter an awkward moment'.)

Minmatar does NOT do very much damage but they got their Alphas. And their guns are never optimal but either >20km too close or too far. While it is handy to choose ammo between damage that still doesnt apply to Tech 2 ammo. So its not that a great thing after all. But cool they dont require cap so theyre great on passive fits against Neuters.

Many Caldarian ships have bonus on kinetic missiles so while you could switch between missiles it remains sensible to only use Scrouge Kinetic Tech 2 against... well all others then Bloods and Sansha (for which you maybe spare some room for EM missiles).

Typical for Gallentean ships all hybrid ammo are fixed to 40-60 dmg types on Therm/Kin which sounds bad initially. However ALL factions are weak to either Kin or Therm or Both! Even factions whose primary weakness is Explos or EM remain secondarily weak to Kin/Therm. But wait arent Blasters even worse than Autocannon because it falls short on Effective Falloff? Yeah, but if you Logi some extra range and fit accordingly, you can have Blasters reach 75 km on effective falloff!

See, whatever you start with you can still do anything you want with imagination! I dont know much about Amarrian combat gear but Im sure that with homework youll find exciting solutions to make Angels and Guristas a bliss. The game is balanced that way. But imagination you will need.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#183 - 2013-10-11 18:02:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Bastion Arzi
go get an amarr laser ship and try doing a mission versus angels or guristas pls.

edit: and im not saying it cant be done but just watch how slowly it goes.
Anselm Cenobite
Gold Ring Enterprises
#184 - 2013-10-16 19:58:55 UTC
There's some (justified) scepticism about making PvE similar to PvE. I understand that running missions can never be exactly like PvP. I do think some excitement might come from a few tweaks to make them more similar, however. I've tossed this idea out before a few years ago, but I'll repeat it here as an idea (cut-and-paste):

The main reason PvE is so different from PvP is that none of the current PvP missions require you to fit a warp scrambler to stop an NPC from warping off, at which point you fail the mission, nor do the current PvE missions require you to use certain useful PvP skills like combat probing, safespots, and breaking gate-camps.

The need to fit a point on a PvP ship necessitates very different fitting strategies from PvE ships. The need to use these other skills require very different playing strategies. If CCP wants to blur the distinction between PvP and PvE, or at least use PvE as a stepping stone toward PvP skills, they should add missions akin to these:

(1) An L1 mission where the pilot must fit a tackler ship and tackle a fast-moving NPC target--one that microwarps back and forth across the complex. One it is tackled, he must survive its drones and counter-fire long enough for slow NPC allies to appear and kill the main ship. (At higher versions, like L3, he doesn't have any NPC allies to help kill the ship--he must bring buddies or kill it himself).

(2) An L2 mission where the pilot must maneuver his unarmed stealthy ship through an artificial NPC gate-camp. Once he hops through the fake gate, he has the normal temporarily cloak, but must get away from a dozen or so NPC tacklers in position and trying to get fast locks on him.

(3) An L3 mission in which the pilot has to use combat probes to locate a single target NPC ship in deep space. The NPC ship has three randomly positioned safespots, and it warps between them every 3-5 minutes. He must scan it down and tackle it--if he engages in combat with it untackled, it warps off and creates a new three safespots to switch between. In an L4 version, he flies off if the combat probes stay out too long, to simulate how players run if probes are visible on d-scan for too long.

(4) An L3 mission in which the pilot is assigned a bounty target to destroy. The L3 version is a NPC located somewhere in the same region and on the move. This mission pays a little extra cash so the pilot can use locator agents to find him. An L4 version is one in which the bounty target is an actual player with an existing bounty--but the player has extra cash in the reward from the NPC agent, since that player has -5 standings with the NPC faction for whatever reason.

(5) An L2 mission in which the pilot must scan down and enter a special wormhole in a cloaky ship. Once he enters it, he is randomly kicked out into deep nulsec. He must get out of nulsec and back into high-sec with his ship intact to gain the cash reward. An L3 version might be one in which he can only use non-cloaky ships to complete the mission.

(6) An L2 mission in which a cloaky pilot must maneuver toward and tackle a target NPC mining barge mining illegally in the midst of a crowded asteroid field--one in which the asteroids and other non-targetted NPC ships are moving back and forth. He must keep his cloak and avoid coming within 2 km of objects until he is in tackling position of the barge, then hold it for ransom and /or destroy the barge.

(7) A mission in which the pilot must not only destroy an NPC ship, he must tackle and capture escape pods emerging from them.

You get the idea. Making a few new missions for tacklers, probers, and scouts would add a lot of variety and prep PvE players for smoother transition to PvP, if they are interested in it.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#185 - 2013-10-18 09:09:29 UTC
Good stuff I like the idea of missions that get people into pvp. But would it run the risk of people just doing these types of missions all the time instead of real pvp? I hope not cos pvp is awesome. Maybe these could be added as extra tutorial missions?
CCP Affinity
C C P
C C P Alliance
#186 - 2013-10-18 09:56:46 UTC
Some very nice ideas :)

Anselm Cenobite wrote:
There's some (justified) scepticism about making PvE similar to PvE. I understand that running missions can never be exactly like PvP. I do think some excitement might come from a few tweaks to make them more similar, however. I've tossed this idea out before a few years ago, but I'll repeat it here as an idea (cut-and-paste):

The main reason PvE is so different from PvP is that none of the current PvP missions require you to fit a warp scrambler to stop an NPC from warping off, at which point you fail the mission, nor do the current PvE missions require you to use certain useful PvP skills like combat probing, safespots, and breaking gate-camps.

The need to fit a point on a PvP ship necessitates very different fitting strategies from PvE ships. The need to use these other skills require very different playing strategies. If CCP wants to blur the distinction between PvP and PvE, or at least use PvE as a stepping stone toward PvP skills, they should add missions akin to these:

(1) An L1 mission where the pilot must fit a tackler ship and tackle a fast-moving NPC target--one that microwarps back and forth across the complex. One it is tackled, he must survive its drones and counter-fire long enough for slow NPC allies to appear and kill the main ship. (At higher versions, like L3, he doesn't have any NPC allies to help kill the ship--he must bring buddies or kill it himself).

(2) An L2 mission where the pilot must maneuver his unarmed stealthy ship through an artificial NPC gate-camp. Once he hops through the fake gate, he has the normal temporarily cloak, but must get away from a dozen or so NPC tacklers in position and trying to get fast locks on him.

(3) An L3 mission in which the pilot has to use combat probes to locate a single target NPC ship in deep space. The NPC ship has three randomly positioned safespots, and it warps between them every 3-5 minutes. He must scan it down and tackle it--if he engages in combat with it untackled, it warps off and creates a new three safespots to switch between. In an L4 version, he flies off if the combat probes stay out too long, to simulate how players run if probes are visible on d-scan for too long.

(4) An L3 mission in which the pilot is assigned a bounty target to destroy. The L3 version is a NPC located somewhere in the same region and on the move. This mission pays a little extra cash so the pilot can use locator agents to find him. An L4 version is one in which the bounty target is an actual player with an existing bounty--but the player has extra cash in the reward from the NPC agent, since that player has -5 standings with the NPC faction for whatever reason.

(5) An L2 mission in which the pilot must scan down and enter a special wormhole in a cloaky ship. Once he enters it, he is randomly kicked out into deep nulsec. He must get out of nulsec and back into high-sec with his ship intact to gain the cash reward. An L3 version might be one in which he can only use non-cloaky ships to complete the mission.

(6) An L2 mission in which a cloaky pilot must maneuver toward and tackle a target NPC mining barge mining illegally in the midst of a crowded asteroid field--one in which the asteroids and other non-targetted NPC ships are moving back and forth. He must keep his cloak and avoid coming within 2 km of objects until he is in tackling position of the barge, then hold it for ransom and /or destroy the barge.

(7) A mission in which the pilot must not only destroy an NPC ship, he must tackle and capture escape pods emerging from them.

You get the idea. Making a few new missions for tacklers, probers, and scouts would add a lot of variety and prep PvE players for smoother transition to PvP, if they are interested in it.

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Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#187 - 2013-10-18 11:36:43 UTC
I disagree with the opinion to make PVE more akin to PVP.

My reason for that is simple: PVE and PVP need a very different set of a player's (real world) skills. This is a very good thing, since apart from diversity needed to do both and the different playstyles it serves, it ensures that a player has to actually spend time doing PVP to learn the ropes of it.

I guess there will be people to argue, that PVE needs no player skills at all, but this is not true. To exaggerate things: Being able to do something very boring prolonged and repeatedly is a skill - and maybe the only one to apply to both PVP and PVE.

This article may be an interesting read. It touches the subject of what qualifies as skill.

.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#188 - 2013-10-18 12:07:25 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:
I disagree with the opinion to make PVE more akin to PVP.

My reason for that is simple: PVE and PVP need a very different set of a player's (real world) skills. This is a very good thing, since apart from diversity needed to do both and the different playstyles it serves, it ensures that a player has to actually spend time doing PVP to learn the ropes of it.

I guess there will be people to argue, that PVE needs no player skills at all, but this is not true. To exaggerate things: Being able to do something very boring prolonged and repeatedly is a skill - and maybe the only one to apply to both PVP and PVE.

This article may be an interesting read. It touches the subject of what qualifies as skill.

You touch on a key phrase.

PVE should be diverse and introducing more PVE, especially more challenging PVP style PVE does not necessarily mean throwing out existing PVE. More stuff for more types of players

Incursions show how PVE can encourage small gang style cooperation. More PVE that is dynamic and encourages social cooperation or competition would be a good thing.

PVE that demonstrates more likeness to PVP would be a good thing.

More involved missions still accessible for the lone player would be a good thing.

More Dynamic in world content would be a good thing. Example the LVL4 Epic arcs are bad PVE, ok they are not terrible but they are generally solo and pretty much just more LVL4 mission redo’s that lack any kind of variation. If you compare that to what COSMOS could have been as a more public location based accessible PVE bringing players together with an a progressive story arc especially if it could have had the more dynamic feel certain other MMO’s have gone for then that would have been really good.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#189 - 2013-10-18 12:12:29 UTC
But that is exactly what I argue: PVP skills should only be trainable while doing PVP. (Which is not even always the case e.g. scanning.)

.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#190 - 2013-10-18 12:19:38 UTC
perhaps you could introduce a new style of agent called advanced combat division that would give out pvp like pve missions with more risk and reward.
that way its extra content rather than replacing the current combat missions .. everyone is happy Big smile

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#191 - 2013-10-18 12:38:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Savira Terrant
Yes, I am all for damage output my tank does not laugh at to have more reward. But then again, if you really only tank what is needed and use the tankslots you spare because of it for damage application, you already have a bigger risk vs reward.

Adding a killmail-save environment to teach players PVP relevant skills cannot be the answear to more interesting PVE game-play.

Edit: On the above note: Can you please spawn all ships at the same time in Mining Missapropriation?

.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#192 - 2013-10-18 15:31:28 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:
Some very nice ideas :)

Anselm Cenobite wrote:
There's some (justified) scepticism about making PvE similar to PvE. I understand that running missions can never be exactly like PvP. I do think some excitement might come from a few tweaks to make them more similar, however. I've tossed this idea out before a few years ago, but I'll repeat it here as an idea (cut-and-paste):

The main reason PvE is so different from PvP is that none of the current PvP missions require you to fit a warp scrambler to stop an NPC from warping off, at which point you fail the mission, nor do the current PvE missions require you to use certain useful PvP skills like combat probing, safespots, and breaking gate-camps.

The need to fit a point on a PvP ship necessitates very different fitting strategies from PvE ships. The need to use these other skills require very different playing strategies. If CCP wants to blur the distinction between PvP and PvE, or at least use PvE as a stepping stone toward PvP skills, they should add missions akin to these:

(1) An L1 mission where the pilot must fit a tackler ship and tackle a fast-moving NPC target--one that microwarps back and forth across the complex. One it is tackled, he must survive its drones and counter-fire long enough for slow NPC allies to appear and kill the main ship. (At higher versions, like L3, he doesn't have any NPC allies to help kill the ship--he must bring buddies or kill it himself).

(2) An L2 mission where the pilot must maneuver his unarmed stealthy ship through an artificial NPC gate-camp. Once he hops through the fake gate, he has the normal temporarily cloak, but must get away from a dozen or so NPC tacklers in position and trying to get fast locks on him.

(3) An L3 mission in which the pilot has to use combat probes to locate a single target NPC ship in deep space. The NPC ship has three randomly positioned safespots, and it warps between them every 3-5 minutes. He must scan it down and tackle it--if he engages in combat with it untackled, it warps off and creates a new three safespots to switch between. In an L4 version, he flies off if the combat probes stay out too long, to simulate how players run if probes are visible on d-scan for too long.

(4) An L3 mission in which the pilot is assigned a bounty target to destroy. The L3 version is a NPC located somewhere in the same region and on the move. This mission pays a little extra cash so the pilot can use locator agents to find him. An L4 version is one in which the bounty target is an actual player with an existing bounty--but the player has extra cash in the reward from the NPC agent, since that player has -5 standings with the NPC faction for whatever reason.

(5) An L2 mission in which the pilot must scan down and enter a special wormhole in a cloaky ship. Once he enters it, he is randomly kicked out into deep nulsec. He must get out of nulsec and back into high-sec with his ship intact to gain the cash reward. An L3 version might be one in which he can only use non-cloaky ships to complete the mission.

(6) An L2 mission in which a cloaky pilot must maneuver toward and tackle a target NPC mining barge mining illegally in the midst of a crowded asteroid field--one in which the asteroids and other non-targetted NPC ships are moving back and forth. He must keep his cloak and avoid coming within 2 km of objects until he is in tackling position of the barge, then hold it for ransom and /or destroy the barge.

(7) A mission in which the pilot must not only destroy an NPC ship, he must tackle and capture escape pods emerging from them.

You get the idea. Making a few new missions for tacklers, probers, and scouts would add a lot of variety and prep PvE players for smoother transition to PvP, if they are interested in it.



Except most (2,3,4,5 and 6) would be skipped all the time because of the ridic time waste they would generate (ported to deep null and must return to your agent?), training requirement being absurd (cloaking for a lvl 2?) or downright negative to what you really want to accomplish when missionning (illegal tackle during a mission?). People already skip mission because they have the standings to do so and you think mission with bad isk/time ratio will be run when they are the equivalent of jumping through fire hoops in a blizzard while juggling chainsaw? I'd skip and run my xth "gone bersek" inseatd and actaully accomplish what I do mission for, the reward at the end.
Ghost Phius
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#193 - 2013-10-18 17:40:05 UTC
FRED- Was the name of the mission editor in FREESPACE and FREESPACE 2.

That game was out a decade ago and the mission editor based on simple yes/no/timing/condition expressions that could be as complicated or as simple as could be imagined is what this game has needed from the start.

CCP go get a cheap-o copy of FREESPACE or FREESPACE 2 and just copy the work you see there. It will save you a TON of time AND add what this game has needed in PvE for ten years.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't do the normal dev thing and think you know how to re-invent a better wheel, TRUST me you don't and if you "actually" take a look at FRED you will see that I am right.

Why create a wooden wheel when you have the plans and material to re-create a 21st century Formula One racing slick instead.
Lumirinne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#194 - 2013-10-21 18:15:14 UTC
Savira Terrant wrote:
I disagree with the opinion to make PVE more akin to PVP.

My reason for that is simple: PVE and PVP need a very different set of a player's (real world) skills. This is a very good thing, since apart from diversity needed to do both and the different playstyles it serves, it ensures that a player has to actually spend time doing PVP to learn the ropes of it.

I guess there will be people to argue, that PVE needs no player skills at all, but this is not true. To exaggerate things: Being able to do something very boring prolonged and repeatedly is a skill - and maybe the only one to apply to both PVP and PVE.

This article may be an interesting read. It touches the subject of what qualifies as skill.


What a waste of forum space
Lumirinne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#195 - 2013-10-21 18:19:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Lumirinne
There are PVP and there are PVP. Though there are some typical trends in PVP fitting: Mods that optimise ship resource consumption, mods to counter e/war and typically passive omni buffer tank. Specialised roles like logistics and WL-ships. Tutorial missions to train for this could be fun. And if tutorial is possible, surely its possible to make something like LVL 2,3,4,5 ones too.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#196 - 2013-10-21 21:38:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Savira Terrant
Lumirinne wrote:
There are PVP and there are PVP. Though there are some typical trends in PVP fitting: Mods that optimise ship resource consumption, mods to counter e/war and typically passive omni buffer tank. Specialised roles like logistics and WL-ships. Tutorial missions to train for this could be fun. And if tutorial is possible, surely its possible to make something like LVL 2,3,4,5 ones too.


What a waste of forum space.


Ghost Phius wrote:
FRED- Was the name of the mission editor in FREESPACE and FREESPACE 2.

That game was out a decade ago and the mission editor based on simple yes/no/timing/condition expressions that could be as complicated or as simple as could be imagined is what this game has needed from the start.

CCP go get a cheap-o copy of FREESPACE or FREESPACE 2 and just copy the work you see there. It will save you a TON of time AND add what this game has needed in PvE for ten years.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't do the normal dev thing and think you know how to re-invent a better wheel, TRUST me you don't and if you "actually" take a look at FRED you will see that I am right.

Why create a wooden wheel when you have the plans and material to re-create a 21st century Formula One racing slick instead.


Maybe a good idea. But phrased really poorly. Can you please change your ego-outlet to a properly formulated proposal?
Maybe you can then add where the ressources will come from for those missions and how they will be properly balanced to not be 500 million ISK/hour riskless ISK-faucets. Thanks.

.
Scorpionstrike
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#197 - 2013-10-22 10:45:14 UTC
When i think of mission changes, i am thinking of ideas such as,

Warping into a battle between Npc ships that way you get a feeling for fleet flights and in this type of scenario you could complete the mission in many roles, repair, bomber, tank-[Time based].

You could have a mission where you need to hack as many nodes before a super-weapon attacks a target or a structure blows up with Aoe damage if you do not stop it in time.

there needs to be a sense of urgency that is the real issue, keep missions fun, improve on them that way.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#198 - 2013-10-22 11:02:05 UTC
Scorpionstrike wrote:
When i think of mission changes, i am thinking of ideas such as,

Warping into a battle between Npc ships that way you get a feeling for fleet flights and in this type of scenario you could complete the mission in many roles, repair, bomber, tank-[Time based].

You could have a mission where you need to hack as many nodes before a super-weapon attacks a target or a structure blows up with Aoe damage if you do not stop it in time.

there needs to be a sense of urgency that is the real issue, keep missions fun, improve on them that way.



Apart from the PVP aspects, I like your idea. One question though: How would you solve the problem that would be possible to actually fail a mission? I think players would just skip those if this was the case.

.
Starlight Kouvo
Howl at the Moon
#199 - 2013-10-22 12:33:05 UTC
The problem with making PVE missions work like a PVP roam - Tackle etc is few pilots can take a single ship and engage lots of targets solo in PVP, so missions are going to get smaller, 1v1's 1v2's at most because your ship will have tank / resist holes to accommodate the normal PVP tackles etc.

You could then say lvl3's are possibly 2 man missions, lvl4's are small group 3-5 man missions.

Unfortunately a lot of people like to mission solo so would be pretty upset buy this and who wants to wait to organise a group to go run some missions to earn some basic isk to keep the ammo and ships flowing.

I agree with the concept that a special set of PVP biased missions could be added as was described in a previous post, with the rewards pay-outs increasing substantially to compensate for the higher risk and smaller number of pirates / loot available in such missions.

As to what to do with the current missions well there are a few possibilities without causing significant changes.

1 - Change the trigger ships to be random within each spawn. This eliminates the shoot only x and leave y till last to generate the next spawn. Adds much more unknown and could cause some more exciting oh crap moments for those who do not have to stress too much now.

2-Make a series of different missions at lvl 3 so that it would give a reason to get a HAC or Strategic Cruiser or similar to complete some lvl 34’s instead of just taking the battleship out in lvl 4’s but generating an equivalent isk/hr approximate earnings. Players could then have some faster paced advanced cruiser type missions or slower paced battleship type missions.

3-Apply the same as 2 above but to advanced Cruisers/Frigates in lvl 2’s

4 – Make some missions with time dependant triggers for extra rooms or even the primary objective. Bounties would still pay out along with loot drops and salvage but no agent fee / LP for missing the trigger time. However I expect a lot of people would skip these missions if they were not consistently complete able with the right skills and fit. Make the final pay out worthwhile to incentivise completion – loot drop or final ship bounty.

Just some thoughts I am throwing in the ring.
Arthur Trueshot
Four Pillar Production
#200 - 2013-10-22 19:41:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Trueshot
1) Trigger:
I would rework completely the trigger mechanic. I guess it was for technical reason that it was implemented that way but shooting 1 particular ship trigger a reinforcement is not intuitive at all and forces the player to actually go to 3. party sites to look them up.

2) Elite missions:
The missions how they are atm feel like you fight a training dummy, point shoot ah yes and tank. But the actual ships you face are "children" ship. An npc ship has by far not the dps/rep/armor that a Player ship has which produce the feel of shooting at flys flying around you.

I would introduce additional "Elite mission" with access restriction meaning lvl 1 Elite can only be accessed by frig and destroyer, etc. Kind like in fraction warefare plexes or in some rare missions. The main difference to normal mission would be that you would face a small amount of ships (1-5) but ships similar to player ships in pvp. And wen i mean similar to pvp fit i mean it like :
- that nasty drone/neut/pointing tristan
- activate gate, land on a tackler with webs and a logi is sitting at distance
- those close range frig with over 150dps

Concerning the difficulty it should be that if you don't have a fit adapted to the fight well you loose your ship (yes warp scrambler please!!!). This would also mean that you need a way to know what you are going up against. The agent could tells you what kind of fit you are up against (those prirate always have logi support etc) and/or you have to dscan at the gate or something like this. But please no "well look it up plz"

For me you could even push it or make "Elite elite" mission where you would need 2-3 players to be able to do them (and with the ships restriction you can't just kill every thing in a bs)

Just to make things clear, i would not replace the actual missions, but add new agents with those mission. I would love to see challenging missions, fly smaller ships like t2 frigs and getting a decent amount of isk out of it and see actual small gang pve happening.

3) Please stay away from those pop up spawning gimmicky missions.... I hate nothing more than wen I land on grid surrounded by ships to have a pop up appear which I are supposed to read. And those missions like "activate gate until you see a ship", run after the "mysterious drone" or pick up something, they are not made for eve and even less for the technologies used in the eve client. Flying/warping in space don't give the impression of actually doing something especially if you have no time pressure. The Soe arc is full of wrong examples like "scouting" is just a word for waiting a timer to run of while you are wondering what you are supposed to do etc...