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[Rubicon] Interceptors

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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#581 - 2013-10-21 19:59:22 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
XavierVE wrote:
It doesn't matter if they place bubbles at the celestials. When you go to ratterville, you go to gank ratters. Which means you're going to anomalies. Sure, miners might throw bubbles up in mining anoms since they last a day or two, but ratters aren't throwing drags up in combat anomalies.

So your argument is misinformed. The real problem are bubble bunkers on gates, so nerfing those rather than empowering interceptors to screw over every small gang FC that roams null-sec in non-Combat Interceptor fleets would be the best solution.

But CCP won't do that, because it takes an act of god to get them to admit a planning mistake. I honestly believe they'd rather break the game for small gangs than to say "Yeah, that idea wasn't completely thought through."

Guess where do anomalies spawn...

Yeah, around planets.



Within 4AU

You don't warp a planet shotgunning a system, hell anymore you don't have to scan.

....and I will tell you now people are already planning their roaming fits.
Teth Razor
Chicks on Speed
#582 - 2013-10-21 20:23:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Teth Razor
Onictus wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
XavierVE wrote:
It doesn't matter if they place bubbles at the celestials. When you go to ratterville, you go to gank ratters. Which means you're going to anomalies. Sure, miners might throw bubbles up in mining anoms since they last a day or two, but ratters aren't throwing drags up in combat anomalies.

So your argument is misinformed. The real problem are bubble bunkers on gates, so nerfing those rather than empowering interceptors to screw over every small gang FC that roams null-sec in non-Combat Interceptor fleets would be the best solution.

But CCP won't do that, because it takes an act of god to get them to admit a planning mistake. I honestly believe they'd rather break the game for small gangs than to say "Yeah, that idea wasn't completely thought through."

Guess where do anomalies spawn...

Yeah, around planets.



Within 4AU

You don't warp a planet shotgunning a system, hell anymore you don't have to scan.

....and I will tell you now people are already planning their roaming fits.


I for one am VERY against nullified intys. But if CCP goes though with it, I plan on abusing the **** out of it.

My corp already has inty fits on sisi that are strong enough to kill most ratting ships with only a gang of 4-5 intys.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#583 - 2013-10-21 20:46:34 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Within 4AU

You don't warp a planet shotgunning a system, hell anymore you don't have to scan.

....and I will tell you now people are already planning their roaming fits.

~~~~~~~~~____
|\~~~~~~~~~~|
|~\~~~~~40km|
|~~\~~~~~~~~ |
|___\~~~~~__|
|40km\~~~~~~| x
|~~~~~\~~~~~|
|~~~~~~\~~~~|
|_______\~~~|__
4au = 600 000 000km

Find x.
Hint : the triangles are isosceles. And damn, I wouldn't even have thought that would be so close in fact !

And I can't wait for these interceptor gang of doom !
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#584 - 2013-10-21 22:24:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
XavierVE wrote:

Quote:
Pls note that anchoring multiple bubbles on one gate is possible.


Obviously. But if you cannot anchor a bubble within 40km, then you can make a giant ******* circle around a gate at no closer than 40km and you're not overlapping spawn radius at any point. Math.



Something something something. Math. I don't get what you want to say. Anchoring bubbles with 40km radius 40km off a gate should yield plenty of overlap. If I missed your point, please explain it to me again, I really don't get it.

XavierVE wrote:

Quote:
Complaining about bubbleproof interceptors with the background of safe mining / afk-ratting is about the same as the complaining that happened when asteroid clusters were moved to anomalies. Just cause you own a system doesn't mean you got any right to demand it being gankproof, which it still mostly is, besides a 3k EHP point circling you for the first two minutes.


Not the complaint. The complaint is that it irrevocably breaks the small gang meta in sov null by taking away the one tool balanced gangs of 5-10 have: 'dictor drag bubbles creating separation off 30+ man home defense gangs. Instead of getting four jumps of separation to be able to kill off interceptors, you're getting no more than one jump... which doesn't give you enough time to shake aggression to continue the run.


Small gang meta in sov null. 5-10man gangs against 30+ home defense fleet.... chasing you around... four jumps ahead to kill inties. Just writing it out. You surely noticed that this (and especially the combination) sounds pretty silly. As there will be an interceptor herotackling you guys four jumps in front of their own fleet. *leFacepalm*
XavierVE
No Corporation for Old Spacemen
#585 - 2013-10-21 23:27:57 UTC  |  Edited by: XavierVE
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Something something something. Math. I don't get what you want to say. Anchoring bubbles with 40km radius 40km off a gate should yield plenty of overlap. If I missed your point, please explain it to me again, I really don't get it.


I can tell you don't get it. t2 large bubbles have a 40km radius. From end to end, they're 40km wide. When you anchor a mobile bubble, it'll do a check from the center of the bubble to the gate, not the furthest edge. This leaves 20km around the gate in all directions that are not overlapped by a bubble. T2 large bubbles don't have an 80km radius, which is what you seem to think with your little "something something" garbage.

I really shouldn't have to explain this, it's not that hard of a concept.

Quote:
Small gang meta in sov null. 5-10man gangs against 30+ home defense fleet.... chasing you around... four jumps ahead to kill inties. Just writing it out. You surely noticed that this (and especially the combination) sounds pretty silly. As there will be an interceptor herotackling you guys four jumps in front of their own fleet. *leFacepalm*


Happens all the time. You drop bubbles behind you, create separation from the main part of the gang, gank any of their light tackle who have gotten too far ahead of their gang. Once ganked a 'dictor and two inties that had gotten five jumps ahead of their gang. At that point, you have enough time to drop aggression and continue running before the main thrust of the gang catches up to you.

Nullified interceptors, for the 1000th time, break this. They go through your 'dictor bubbles while you run to make sure you don't get more than a jump of separation from the main blob. Means that any small gang FC is a dope if he doesn't simply run combat interceptor only gangs. Terrible breaking of the small gang meta for people who like to FC balanced small gangs into null. Pointless too, as nullification is a terrible mechanic compared to simply dealing with bubble bunkers directly.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#586 - 2013-10-21 23:33:10 UTC
The reason he doesn't get it is because you said "40km radius" when you should have said "40km diameter".

A radius is only half of a circle; from the center point to the outside edge. From one edge straight across to the opposite edge is a diameter.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#587 - 2013-10-21 23:33:12 UTC
Teth Razor wrote:
I for one am VERY against nullified intys. But if CCP goes though with it, I plan on abusing the **** out of it.

My corp already has inty fits on sisi that are strong enough to kill most ratting ships with only a gang of 4-5 intys.

I don't get it, what is the opposition about. We are going from single ratter tank killing nullified covert cloaking ships with above average tanks to 4-5 nullified ships with zero tank.

Is the idea of old school roaming (ie. team work not involving superfluous Titan alts) that abhorrent? Big smile

To me it sounds like it will be an absolute blast, at least from the Interceptor pilots PoV and it will more than likely create a huge market for lowly ships such as Dessies as even ****-fit/-piloted destroyers will eat Interceptors as light snacks at a fraction of the cost.
Or what about the tiericided T2 frigates, most of them have roughly same damage as Inties but with tons more tank .. where is the nullifier crap when the primal part of the Inty pilots brain screams "Trololol, T1 frig snack time" before being shown the door?

Make no mistake, I dislike the idea of nullifier anything, not because it is extremely potent but because there is no real way to counter it .. even the Harry Potter wannabes with their cloaks can be disrobed but there is squat to be done against AoE tackle immune ships that will go to warp as fast as shuttles and cross the biggest systems in less 30s.

PS: I fully expect T3's to get hit with a lot of conflicts between the prime-grade-beef subsystems when tiericede reaches them so doubt they'll retain the cloak+nullifier, thus used as example only, status quo will change.
Teth Razor
Chicks on Speed
#588 - 2013-10-22 03:18:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Teth Razor
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Teth Razor wrote:
I for one am VERY against nullified intys. But if CCP goes though with it, I plan on abusing the **** out of it.

My corp already has inty fits on sisi that are strong enough to kill most ratting ships with only a gang of 4-5 intys.

I don't get it, what is the opposition about. We are going from single ratter tank killing nullified covert cloaking ships with above average tanks to 4-5 nullified ships with zero tank.

Is the idea of old school roaming (ie. team work not involving superfluous Titan alts) that abhorrent? Big smile

To me it sounds like it will be an absolute blast, at least from the Interceptor pilots PoV and it will more than likely create a huge market for lowly ships such as Dessies as even ****-fit/-piloted destroyers will eat Interceptors as light snacks at a fraction of the cost.
Or what about the tiericided T2 frigates, most of them have roughly same damage as Inties but with tons more tank .. where is the nullifier crap when the primal part of the Inty pilots brain screams "Trololol, T1 frig snack time" before being shown the door?

Make no mistake, I dislike the idea of nullifier anything, not because it is extremely potent but because there is no real way to counter it .. even the Harry Potter wannabes with their cloaks can be disrobed but there is squat to be done against AoE tackle immune ships that will go to warp as fast as shuttles and cross the biggest systems in less 30s.

PS: I fully expect T3's to get hit with a lot of conflicts between the prime-grade-beef subsystems when tiericede reaches them so doubt they'll retain the cloak+nullifier, thus used as example only, status quo will change.


And that is exactly why I am against nullified intys. I am all for new ways to catch ratters and miners, and im all for new ways to kill each other.

But intys will actually cut down the amount of combat we see in null sec. They will be used primarily as null sec shuttles or fast roaming gangs out looking for easy kills. We will get less brawls, less kills on drag bubbles, and more people just blasting though as fast as they can with NO way to counter it.

That is what I am against!

Everything added to the game should be added to create content for everyone. This will remove more content then it adds.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#589 - 2013-10-22 07:11:30 UTC
Teth Razor wrote:

....

And that is exactly why I am against nullified intys. I am all for new ways to catch ratters and miners, and im all for new ways to kill each other.

But intys will actually cut down the amount of combat we see in null sec. They will be used primarily as null sec shuttles or fast roaming gangs out looking for easy kills. We will get less brawls, less kills on drag bubbles, and more people just blasting though as fast as they can with NO way to counter it.

That is what I am against!

Everything added to the game should be added to create content for everyone. This will remove more content then it adds.


this is true;
the best way of catching those super fast warping intys will be what....smartbombing bs, low sec style....
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#590 - 2013-10-22 08:41:43 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

I don't get it, what is the opposition about. We are going from single ratter tank killing nullified covert cloaking ships with above average tanks to 4-5 nullified ships with zero tank.

Is the idea of old school roaming (ie. team work not involving superfluous Titan alts) that abhorrent? Big smile

To me it sounds like it will be an absolute blast, at least from the Interceptor pilots PoV and it will more than likely create a huge market for lowly ships such as Dessies as even ****-fit/-piloted destroyers will eat Interceptors as light snacks at a fraction of the cost.
Or what about the tiericided T2 frigates, most of them have roughly same damage as Inties but with tons more tank .. where is the nullifier crap when the primal part of the Inty pilots brain screams "Trololol, T1 frig snack time" before being shown the door?

Make no mistake, I dislike the idea of nullifier anything, not because it is extremely potent but because there is no real way to counter it .. even the Harry Potter wannabes with their cloaks can be disrobed but there is squat to be done against AoE tackle immune ships that will go to warp as fast as shuttles and cross the biggest systems in less 30s.

PS: I fully expect T3's to get hit with a lot of conflicts between the prime-grade-beef subsystems when tiericede reaches them so doubt they'll retain the cloak+nullifier, thus used as example only, status quo will change.

I think ppl are forgetting (or not) that these terror inty gangs will have to engage something and at that point they have many counters, usually some form of blowing up their paper thin tanks. What they are really complaining about is that this is a nerf to miners in 0.0 belts without standing fleet protection and a nerf to gate camps blobbing single 0.0 travelers.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#591 - 2013-10-22 08:43:55 UTC
gascanu wrote:
Teth Razor wrote:

....

And that is exactly why I am against nullified intys. I am all for new ways to catch ratters and miners, and im all for new ways to kill each other.

But intys will actually cut down the amount of combat we see in null sec. They will be used primarily as null sec shuttles or fast roaming gangs out looking for easy kills. We will get less brawls, less kills on drag bubbles, and more people just blasting though as fast as they can with NO way to counter it.

That is what I am against!

Everything added to the game should be added to create content for everyone. This will remove more content then it adds.


this is true;
the best way of catching those super fast warping intys will be what....smartbombing bs, low sec style....


So there are counters then. You just CBA to change
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#592 - 2013-10-22 10:06:46 UTC
gascanu wrote:
Teth Razor wrote:

....

And that is exactly why I am against nullified intys. I am all for new ways to catch ratters and miners, and im all for new ways to kill each other.

But intys will actually cut down the amount of combat we see in null sec. They will be used primarily as null sec shuttles or fast roaming gangs out looking for easy kills. We will get less brawls, less kills on drag bubbles, and more people just blasting though as fast as they can with NO way to counter it.

That is what I am against!

Everything added to the game should be added to create content for everyone. This will remove more content then it adds.


this is true;
the best way of catching those super fast warping intys will be what....smartbombing bs, low sec style....



This also assumes that the inty pilot is stupid and warps from a line you are already sitting on.

....something most experienced pilots don't do.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#593 - 2013-10-22 10:54:17 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
Portmanteau wrote:
gascanu wrote:
Teth Razor wrote:

....

And that is exactly why I am against nullified intys. I am all for new ways to catch ratters and miners, and im all for new ways to kill each other.

But intys will actually cut down the amount of combat we see in null sec. They will be used primarily as null sec shuttles or fast roaming gangs out looking for easy kills. We will get less brawls, less kills on drag bubbles, and more people just blasting though as fast as they can with NO way to counter it.

That is what I am against!

Everything added to the game should be added to create content for everyone. This will remove more content then it adds.


this is true;
the best way of catching those super fast warping intys will be what....smartbombing bs, low sec style....


So there are counters then. You just CBA to change


... if you can't understand how bad it is to have smartbombing bs at the best counter to intys in 0.0.... really i advise you to do a bit of research...
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#594 - 2013-10-22 10:54:35 UTC
XavierVE wrote:
Happens all the time. You drop bubbles behind you, create separation from the main part of the gang, gank any of their light tackle who have gotten too far ahead of their gang. Once ganked a 'dictor and two inties that had gotten five jumps ahead of their gang. At that point, you have enough time to drop aggression and continue running before the main thrust of the gang catches up to you.

Nullified interceptors, for the 1000th time, break this. They go through your 'dictor bubbles while you run to make sure you don't get more than a jump of separation from the main blob. Means that any small gang FC is a dope if he doesn't simply run combat interceptor only gangs. Terrible breaking of the small gang meta for people who like to FC balanced small gangs into null. Pointless too, as nullification is a terrible mechanic compared to simply dealing with bubble bunkers directly.


Not sure I follow your argument either. Yes, nullified interceptors will be not be slowed by defensive bubbles and will chase you down more easily. But it strikes me that the warp speed change is likely to be much more significant in this interceptor-chasing scenario.

After all, it takes, what, five seconds for an interceptor to burn out of a defensive dictor bubble? In comparison, an interceptor now warps across a 20 AU system in 33 seconds; yet after the patch it'll do it in 12 seconds, while your cruiser will do it in 33-37 seconds. It seems to me that if you have hostile interceptors chasing your gang of cruisers, then the effects of the warp acceleration changes are much more significant than the bubble immunity.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#595 - 2013-10-22 11:04:37 UTC
XavierVE wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Something something something. Math. I don't get what you want to say. Anchoring bubbles with 40km radius 40km off a gate should yield plenty of overlap. If I missed your point, please explain it to me again, I really don't get it.


I can tell you don't get it. t2 large bubbles have a 40km radius. From end to end, they're 40km wide. When you anchor a mobile bubble, it'll do a check from the center of the bubble to the gate, not the furthest edge. This leaves 20km around the gate in all directions that are not overlapped by a bubble. T2 large bubbles don't have an 80km radius, which is what you seem to think with your little "something something" garbage.

I really shouldn't have to explain this, it's not that hard of a concept.

Quote:
Small gang meta in sov null. 5-10man gangs against 30+ home defense fleet.... chasing you around... four jumps ahead to kill inties. Just writing it out. You surely noticed that this (and especially the combination) sounds pretty silly. As there will be an interceptor herotackling you guys four jumps in front of their own fleet. *leFacepalm*


Happens all the time. You drop bubbles behind you, create separation from the main part of the gang, gank any of their light tackle who have gotten too far ahead of their gang. Once ganked a 'dictor and two inties that had gotten five jumps ahead of their gang. At that point, you have enough time to drop aggression and continue running before the main thrust of the gang catches up to you.

Nullified interceptors, for the 1000th time, break this. They go through your 'dictor bubbles while you run to make sure you don't get more than a jump of separation from the main blob. Means that any small gang FC is a dope if he doesn't simply run combat interceptor only gangs. Terrible breaking of the small gang meta for people who like to FC balanced small gangs into null. Pointless too, as nullification is a terrible mechanic compared to simply dealing with bubble bunkers directly.


WOuld be easier to balance if CCP could make them immune to anchorable or HIC bubbles but not against interdictor bubles.

That would also increase the value of the old interdictors.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#596 - 2013-10-22 11:37:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Portmanteau
gascanu wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
gascanu wrote:
Teth Razor wrote:

....

And that is exactly why I am against nullified intys. I am all for new ways to catch ratters and miners, and im all for new ways to kill each other.

But intys will actually cut down the amount of combat we see in null sec. They will be used primarily as null sec shuttles or fast roaming gangs out looking for easy kills. We will get less brawls, less kills on drag bubbles, and more people just blasting though as fast as they can with NO way to counter it.

That is what I am against!

Everything added to the game should be added to create content for everyone. This will remove more content then it adds.


this is true;
the best way of catching those super fast warping intys will be what....smartbombing bs, low sec style....


So there are counters then. You just CBA to change


... if you can't understand how bad it is to have smartbombing bs at the best counter to intys in 0.0.... really i advise you to do a bit of research...


The best counter is to engage these inty gangs (if the become rampant as claimed) I was just noting that ppl who claim there is no counter have also mentioned SBBS as a counter. I don't particularly want to get smartied jumping thru any gate, but if i can deal with it in losec I can deal with it in null.

The reason ppl are saying there's no counter or only SBBS will do it is because they are fixated on blobbing single targets jumping thru gates. That is why they are conveniently forgetting that any inty gang who are a serious threat will at some point have to engage other ships and then the counters to them are too many to count. Just blow them up for God's sake
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#597 - 2013-10-22 12:14:28 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
[



The best counter is to engage these inty gangs (if the become rampant as claimed) I was just noting that ppl who claim there is no counter have also mentioned SBBS as a counter. I don't particularly want to get smartied jumping thru any gate, but if i can deal with it in losec I can deal with it in null.

The reason ppl are saying there's no counter or only SBBS will do it is because they are fixated on blobbing single targets jumping thru gates. That is why they are conveniently forgetting that any inty gang who are a serious threat will at some point have to engage other ships and then the counters to them are too many to count. Just blow them up for God's sake


ok, engage them.... easy to say but, why will any of those gangs fight if they don't want to? except bringing your own inty gang, you won't be really able to force them to fight you; they will pick their fights, and if not they will just buzz around/leave, you won't be really able to stop them;
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#598 - 2013-10-22 12:22:15 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
...The reason ppl are saying there's no counter or only SBBS will do it is because they are fixated on blobbing single targets jumping thru gates. That is why they are conveniently forgetting that any inty gang who are a serious threat will at some point have to engage other ships and then the counters to them are too many to count. Just blow them up for God's sake

Carpet bombing a border zone because illegal immigrants are trying to cross .. wonder how that would play out in reality Smile
Hint: It is not a counter but rather an indiscriminate area denial that affects everyone and not just the interceptors.

You are right however that they can be killed once they engage, but think about it .. actually don't bother, just read up on the Dramiel discussions as the similarities are too many to count. Biggest difference between the two is that the Dramiel was broken everywhere whereas the Interceptors will be so primarily in null.
Between basic agility/speed, new warp speeds, more tank/dps and nullification the Interceptors are looking like they will be even worse for the calm in the null sheep herds than the much pricier Dramiel ever was and we all know where that went (hint: Dodo's).

Here's another brainfart:
Anchorable eWar relay.
- Similar to anchorable bubbles but with next to no EHP. Any secondary eWar type (TP, Damp, TD, Neut) that is projected onto the unit is translated throughout the sphere of influence. First come first serve, only one effect at a time and no overlapping fields possible.
For example: An Inty gang is reported and a Large (26km) eWar relay is deployed in their path. One of the new 30km Sentinels can now neut the relay and thus apply neutralization to the entire sphere, preventing Inty gang from warping if timed right while staying clear of effect itself ...

Cat has plenty of skin left, lets experiment with how best to get its stuffz!
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#599 - 2013-10-22 12:35:37 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
actually don't bother, just read up on the Dramiel discussions as the similarities are too many to count. Biggest difference between the two is that the Dramiel was broken everywhere whereas the Interceptors will be so primarily in null.


Eh? The old Dramiel was overpowered because of the combination of mobility and the good chance of killing almost any other frigate, while retaining the possibility to disengage because of dual-prop. Interceptors don't have anything close to this combination of attributes. Their combat abilities aren't being changed much and they don't have such a good dual-prop option.

Yes, they'll be very good at roaming but I suspect the bubble immunity will be relatively unimportant , compared to the superfast warping, for which CCP may have gone a teeny bit too far, seeing how quickly some of these things appear on grid. What?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#600 - 2013-10-22 13:15:42 UTC
gascanu wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
[



The best counter is to engage these inty gangs (if the become rampant as claimed) I was just noting that ppl who claim there is no counter have also mentioned SBBS as a counter. I don't particularly want to get smartied jumping thru any gate, but if i can deal with it in losec I can deal with it in null.

The reason ppl are saying there's no counter or only SBBS will do it is because they are fixated on blobbing single targets jumping thru gates. That is why they are conveniently forgetting that any inty gang who are a serious threat will at some point have to engage other ships and then the counters to them are too many to count. Just blow them up for God's sake


ok, engage them.... easy to say but, why will any of those gangs fight if they don't want to? except bringing your own inty gang, you won't be really able to force them to fight you; they will pick their fights, and if not they will just buzz around/leave, you won't be really able to stop them;



And the problem with that?

Why could not for ONCE the attacker haev the advantage?

Ye si will say it. Eve was MORE fun at the nano age!!!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"