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Let's break a t2 Monopoly.
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Alice Loreley
Citadel Technologies Unit
#61 - 2013-10-13 11:17:51 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Alice Loreley wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Alice Loreley wrote:
Sheri Angela wrote:
T2 invention is certainly profitable. I build mainly hulls, but occasional rig from time to time. Average ROI investment is around 18% across my entire portfolio of products, but a lot fluctuation in margin by product over time. While I say ROI I honestly think in cashflow.

I've only run into a few products where T2 BPO owners could keep up with demand such as the Astarte or at least that's my assumption from the consistently low price point.


Glad to hear some new details. What do you think about t2 drones? I'm sharp on Gallente invention and as i expect this course of further action will be more than logical. But i still have a little doubt about my success because my math is based on solid probability 42%. But it's no warranty for me to receive exactly the same number of t2 bpc after invention cycle.



I... what?

So let's break this down: Even with the plethora of tools available that utterly trivialize determining if a certain item is a good choice for invention, you can't figure it out on your own?

And, yet, you're still butthurt about BPOs?

What was I saying about a mix of lazy/stupid earlier? Roll


Oh dear, are you still here? I was quite sure i've explained myself earlier. Are you lazy to read posts or stupid to understand what does they mean? Don't waste your time, sweet butthurt is somewhere else, waiting for you to deliver some pleasant times. Cool



T2 drones are better than T1 drones, but what is a conversation about the relative combat efficacy of different drones doing in your thread about how you think that Timmy shouldn't have a shiny toy if you don't get the same thing?


Oh, another one awakes. Good morning, captain! If you really wish to understand whats happening here, maybe you shall offer to me something valuable first? Some market tools as example. As said Herma Mora - "knowledge for knowledge".

EVE Online: Black Hole. Coming really soon.

And... Oh, yeah, small secret - Drifters are Talocan.
Haulie Berry
#62 - 2013-10-13 13:31:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Gargep Farrow wrote:

One area I quickly noticed that BPO's have a good advantage is in making some BPCs. Take mining crystals for example. I can make a ten run copy, (leaving out decryptors) whereas a BPO owner can make a 100 run one. Fortunately that advantage drops to almost nothing with things like ships. So there are certain BPC markets I will avoid, not a big deal.


You may want to check the copy time on those BPOs.

That said, the T2 BPC market is not exactly a lucrative one. There are some BPO holders that churn out BPCs as an alternative to having the asset doing absolutely nothing, but it's generally pretty sub-optimal.
Haulie Berry
#63 - 2013-10-13 13:32:39 UTC
Alice Loreley wrote:


Oh, another one awakes. Good morning, captain! If you really wish to understand whats happening here, maybe you shall offer to me something valuable first? Some market tools as example. As said Herma Mora - "knowledge for knowledge".


You can't even find the sticky thread at the top of the board; it's pretty unlikely you have any knowledge to offer anyone else.
Bastaardicious
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#64 - 2013-10-14 08:29:56 UTC
Sorry dude but this is just the 10000th cry thread about people having T2 BPO's.

You should just start inventing and make ISK that way. Of course you'll never be able to reach the amount of isk/hour as guys with the BPO but you still pull a more than decent amount of isk if you just invest a few bil.

Are you going to cry about people/company owning patents now as well? Comes down to exactly the same thing.
Alice Loreley
Citadel Technologies Unit
#65 - 2013-10-14 10:34:02 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Alice Loreley wrote:


Oh, another one awakes. Good morning, captain! If you really wish to understand whats happening here, maybe you shall offer to me something valuable first? Some market tools as example. As said Herma Mora - "knowledge for knowledge".


You can't even find the sticky thread at the top of the board; it's pretty unlikely you have any knowledge to offer anyone else.


Secrets in public? That time is long gone. Big smile

EVE Online: Black Hole. Coming really soon.

And... Oh, yeah, small secret - Drifters are Talocan.
Haulie Berry
#66 - 2013-10-14 15:00:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Bastaardicious wrote:

You should just start inventing and make ISK that way. Of course you'll never be able to reach the amount of isk/hour as guys with the BPO but you still pull a more than decent amount of isk if you just invest a few bil.



This is misleading. For the capital invested, T2 BPOs net a really, really dismal IPH. They really only look good when you're examining the BPO in a vacuum, absent its capital costs and opportunity costs and merely comparing one production line of BPO Vs. one production line of invention.

Since we've (obviously) just left out all of the actual downsides of the BPO, of course they seem really good when examined from that perspective.

Hell, just about ANYTHING seems absolutely amazing when you conveniently ignore all of its downsides.
Bill Saisima
Doomheim
#67 - 2013-10-15 09:27:08 UTC
I'm just a newb when it comes to industry but this is an interesting topic and I'll add my own experience.
BPOs are a good question, but they are really not related to T2 profitability - I'd handle that as a separate question.

I recently started using 2 invention / production characters (with a market / support character that can handle a couple slots) and I made enough profit so I continue it, for now.
Of course it takes some work - market takes a lot of time, there's some legwork to be done and some clicking. But I'm reaching my ratting isk income ratio which is not all that bad to begin with, considering I absolutely HATE ratting and can't do it for more than a few hours a month without suicidal thoughts.

You need to chose carefully what you make, where you source your materials, and how / where you sell the end product. These all affects the profits, and the time investment required.
It works for me, for now. Any time the products I am making may turn unprofitable (or below my profitability threshold), then I will need to find some new products to make. In the mean time I am teaching my characters new skills so I can make the transition easier when I have to.

What I mainly did was
- reading this forum (there were some useful info, among the many useless threads with general cliches or clueless rantings)
- google for tools and websites (I don't use any of them now but they were somewhat useful for the learning process)
- read a bit about how eve central api works
- load the db dump and try to remember how to make a select (college was some while ago... :) )
- look at market to see product volumes
- create a google docs spreadsheet with some products I want to make, to calculate profitability
- invest a few billion (lower 1 digit) mainly from AT bet winnings :) and liquidating some assets
- take the dive for the rest of the unknown (how things actually work, market fluctuations etc) and start

It works, I make profit.
I don't own any t2 bpos and I will probably never will...
Bastaardicious
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#68 - 2013-10-15 13:11:53 UTC
Really you guys need to put just a little effort into it.

You're not getting rich in real life by not putting any effort into it either..
Mai Shigemi
Doomheim
#69 - 2013-10-16 11:16:04 UTC
Raphael Celestine wrote:
At this point, in a lot of ways, T2 BPOs are a side-show. They dominate a few small markets for goods - which are ones that sell unusually slowly anyway - and they tie up enormous amounts of ISK compared to the amount of income they produce. You're doing well if you can pay off the purchase price of a T2 BPO in less than a couple of years.

A side show? It depends.

Lets run some numbers. Assuming proper skills, slots, decent component prints, proper facilities ,Jita prices, etc. Breaking down a Lachesis for manufacturing:

Lachesis, invention etc ..
Lachesis, Decryptor Incognito Process
60 Construction Blocks 491 339,40
162288 Crystalline Carbonide 29 487 729,60
48 Fermionic Condensates 1 930 905,12
288 Ferrogel 5 325 995,52
3000 Fullerides 1 799 970,00
792 Hypersynaptic Fibers 6 330 804,48
9881 Isogen 1 249 105,45
90 Megacyte 147 149,67
41443 Mexallon 1 720 713,36
120 Morphite 921 416,40
3576 Nanotransistors 8 224 621,20
2274 Nocxium 1 501 185,50
7344 Phenolic Composites 8 812 726,56
3480 Photonic Metamaterials 37 235 930,40
92133 Pyerite 1 035 579,42
31920 Sylramic Fibers 7 882 005,60
387946 Tritanium 1 862 142,72
492 Zydrine 280 563,00
25,22 Datacore - Gallentean Starship Engineering 3 467 104,27
25,22 Datacore - Mechanical Engineering 2 720 765,60
3,15 Incognito Process 12 596 138,27
3,15 Copying 791 199,09
3,15 Invention 633 589,71
1 Manufacturing 6 328,00

Estimated total cost: 136 400 000
Estimated time when ships pops out of oven: 2d13h

Lachesis BPO(ml 10, pl 10)
Lachesis, BPO
50 Construction Blocks 409 449,50
136473 Crystalline Carbonide 24 797 144,10
40 Fermionic Condensates 1 609 087,60
242 Ferrogel 4 475 315,68
2520 Fullerides 1 511 974,80
666 Hypersynaptic Fibers 5 323 631,04
9881 Isogen 1 249 105,45
90 Megacyte 147 149,67
41443 Mexallon 1 720 713,36
101 Morphite 775 525,47
3007 Nanotransistors 6 915 949,65
2274 Nocxium 1 501 185,50
6175 Phenolic Composites 7 409 938,25
2926 Photonic Metamaterials 31 308 141,48
92133 Pyerite 1 035 579,42
26846 Sylramic Fibers 6 629 082,78
387946 Tritanium 1 862 142,72
492 Zydrine 280 563,00

Estimated total cost: 100 000 000
Estimated time when ships pops out of oven: 1d14h

You're welcome.

Regards;
Mai
Haulie Berry
#70 - 2013-10-16 14:34:57 UTC
Mai Shigemi wrote:

You're welcome.

Regards;
Mai


You left out the capital cost of the BPO and, more significantly, the opportunity cost of investing that capital into something else. The last for-sale thread I can find for a Lachesis BPO was asking for 145b. The highest credible public offer was 125b. We'll use that as a fair price.

I'm just going to trust your numbers here, so a lachesis costs 100,000,000 to produce with our new BPO.

The Jita sell price is 113,000,000 and, according to you, we can turn one out every 38 hours. Let's just assume, generously, that we can immediately sell every lachesis we produce at the current sell price.

So, we can produce ~19 per month and we'll get 13m in profit each, ignoring fees and taxes.

We have succeeded in tying up 125 billion isk in an asset that generates 250,000,000 per month.

That sound like a good deal to you?
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#71 - 2013-10-16 17:28:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Mai Shigemi wrote:

Lachesis, invention etc ..
Estimated total cost: 136 400 000
Estimated time when ships pops out of oven: 2d13h

Note that you can manufacture typically 10 at the same time, or more with alts, unlike with a T2 BPO.

EVE-Central shows the Jita sell price of a Lachesis @ 112,998,000.00 if that is below invention cost, then there isn't enough demand to bother building them.
Maxpie
MUSE LLP
#72 - 2013-10-16 19:57:28 UTC
Confirming that invention is not profitable. I suggest everyone should stop inventing. Particularly the items I invent.

No good deed goes unpunished
Raphael Celestine
Celestine Inc.
#73 - 2013-10-17 00:27:14 UTC
Mai Shigemi wrote:
Raphael Celestine wrote:
At this point, in a lot of ways, T2 BPOs are a side-show. They dominate a few small markets for goods - which are ones that sell unusually slowly anyway - and they tie up enormous amounts of ISK compared to the amount of income they produce. You're doing well if you can pay off the purchase price of a T2 BPO in less than a couple of years.

A side show? It depends.

Lets run some numbers. Assuming proper skills, slots, decent component prints, proper facilities ,Jita prices, etc. Breaking down a Lachesis for manufacturing:

Lachesis, invention etc ..
Lachesis, Decryptor Incognito Process...

Estimated total cost: 136 400 000
Estimated time when ships pops out of oven: 2d13h

Lachesis BPO(ml 10, pl 10)
Lachesis, BPO...
Estimated total cost: 100 000 000
Estimated time when ships pops out of oven: 1d14h

You're welcome.

Regards;
Mai

Rens and Hek combined have sold 31 Lacheses in the last month. By your numbers, that's two-and-a-half production lines for a single inventor. Jita no doubt moves more than that, but 'sells too slowly to be worthwhile anywhere but Jita' is close enough to 'sideshow' for me.

And based on a price of 125b for the T2 BPO, you'll cover your original investment in just under 42 years.

Soas far as I'm concerned, this pretty much proves my point. If you own a T2 BPO, the smart thing to do is sell it and do use the ISK for something more profitable. (Like, say, invention...Roll)
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#74 - 2013-10-17 04:58:28 UTC
Raphael Celestine wrote:
Rens and Hek combined have sold 31 Lacheses in the last month. By your numbers, that's two-and-a-half production lines for a single inventor. Jita no doubt moves more than that, but 'sells too slowly to be worthwhile anywhere but Jita' is close enough to 'sideshow' for me.

And based on a price of 125b for the T2 BPO, you'll cover your original investment in just under 42 years.

Soas far as I'm concerned, this pretty much proves my point. If you own a T2 BPO, the smart thing to do is sell it and do use the ISK for something more profitable. (Like, say, invention...Roll)

Jita was 890 past 31 days, so about 29 per day on average. That's still a pittance. I could single-handedly build that many. i.e. that is very low volume, and a market not worth getting into.
Dex Thunakar
Evil Genius Organisation
#75 - 2013-10-21 14:49:50 UTC
Alice Loreley wrote:
Only one thing isn't good at all - rarity of t2 bpo's. Few lucky guys in the galaxy have them. Few people are able to rule the entire t2 market. Is that right?


I've always found this extremely unfair yes.... and don't understand why nothing has ever been done about it. (I guess it's too late now)


However I do not agree that invention is useless.
flakeys
Doomheim
#76 - 2013-10-21 15:23:20 UTC
Lors Dornick wrote:
I's say that there are three kinds of posters who claim that T2 BPOs makes it impossible to make a profit on invented T2 BPCs.

  • Trolls.
  • People who fail at market research and/or basic math.
  • People who are making money on invention and doesn't want the unwashed masses to interfere in their markets.


Hmm, wait a sec, I'm on my own list.

I've changed my mind.

There's absolutely no way to make a profit on invented T2 BPCs.



You're saying you're a troll right?



right?



Roll

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Haulie Berry
#77 - 2013-10-21 17:08:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Dex Thunakar wrote:
Alice Loreley wrote:
Only one thing isn't good at all - rarity of t2 bpo's. Few lucky guys in the galaxy have them. Few people are able to rule the entire t2 market. Is that right?


I've always found this extremely unfair yes.... and don't understand why nothing has ever been done about it. (I guess it's too late now)


However I do not agree that invention is useless.


The reason that nothing has been done about it is that there is a fundamental difference between something actually being unfair, and merely being perceived as unfair by people who are bad at math.

The latter event is a strictly personal problem.

Again, if you think they're so unfair, just go buy some.
Dex Thunakar
Evil Genius Organisation
#78 - 2013-10-22 08:32:50 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Dex Thunakar wrote:
Alice Loreley wrote:
Only one thing isn't good at all - rarity of t2 bpo's. Few lucky guys in the galaxy have them. Few people are able to rule the entire t2 market. Is that right?


I've always found this extremely unfair yes.... and don't understand why nothing has ever been done about it. (I guess it's too late now)


However I do not agree that invention is useless.


The reason that nothing has been done about it is that there is a fundamental difference between something actually being unfair, and merely being perceived as unfair by people who are bad at math.

The latter event is a strictly personal problem.

Again, if you think they're so unfair, just go buy some.


Hmm I didn't say it's unfair that people buy them. What's unfair is that they were originally given to certain players for free...
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#79 - 2013-10-22 15:15:38 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Dex Thunakar wrote:
Hmm I didn't say it's unfair that people buy them. What's unfair is that they were originally given to certain players for free...


1. Not for free. Not "given" to anyone.
2. There's no indication that the lottery was unfairly run while it existed.

The only thing "unfair" about it is that time machines don't exist.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#80 - 2013-10-22 15:24:54 UTC
Dex Thunakar wrote:
Hmm I didn't say it's unfair that people buy them. What's unfair is that they were originally given to certain players for free...

Unfortunately CCP doesn't have a time machine to go back and roll back the lottery. Do you instead want to punish the hundreds of people who have legitimately bought the BPOs with their own money, many of who probably weren't even playing at the time the lottery was run?