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Sanmatar
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Matar Ronin
#81 - 2013-10-17 18:02:14 UTC
San La Muerte wrote:
The reintroduction of the Sanmatar title is a useful initiative, like hanging a big target around their neck.

I only hope to be the one who takes the final shot.
Apparently this child is lost. (Turns on the PA system)
Quote:
Attention Amarr parents, we have a lost little boy, blathering on about things he has no concept of. Please check your strollers and come collect this snot nosed little brat.
(turns off the PA system and face palms,)
Just what we need another rookie ship flying ace.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#82 - 2013-10-18 15:19:23 UTC
Ray Mitar wrote:
I think our dispute with the Gallente was ill-advised at best.

Concord stood in the way of emancipating some of our people. That should serve as a lesson to the entire cluster. The Minmatar people will agress anyone who stands between us and emancipating our enslaved kinsmen.

The cluster is a big busy place, your fears of being labeled a pariah state are not well grounded in my humble opinion. Every human empire has a bad reputation with someone else. I don't think the Minmatar Republic, the youngest, is expected to be flawless. At least not by anyone with a sense of fairness.

We must do better. We must demand better. I feel we are on the path of both.


Pilot Mitar, what happened with our Federal allies went far beyond a difference of opinion. We sent warships into their sovereign territory with hostile intent on two occasions. Technically what the Republic Fleet did was an act of war and the Gallente would have been within their rights to declare war against us.

As to your point about being labeled pariahs, I'd ask you to search the IGS threads regarding the Colelie incidents. Our government managed in the span of less than a month to undo a century of accumulated goodwill towards our nation. Read for yourself the anger and outrage expressed by normally reasonable and supportive Federation pilots and citizens. Take a look at the recent story of a young Brutor man who was attacked by ethnic Gallenteans. These were the direct result of what happened at Colelie.

I'm sorry to say that I can't agree with your ends justifying the means argument either. While I don't disagree with the decision to rescue the Starkmanir and Nefantar (It was apparent that once they were discovered their lives were in grave danger and there were even rumors that the corrupt de facto leader of the Empire at the time, Chancellor Karsoth, was planning to send in troops to kill them all) I can't agree with the way this was done. Launching an unprovoked attack on the cluster's peacekeeping force just can't be justified. We were lucky that act didn't start an all out war. By the way, with no CONCORD and with the Gallente occupied with Heth's invading forces, what was there to stop the imperials from launching a direct attack on the Republic?

No, the correct way to handle the situation would have been to call for an emergency meeting of the Inner Circle, lay out our case and secure the backing of the other empires and a CONCORD supervised evacuation of our newly discovered kin. This solution would also have had the effect of making us appear to be peaceful, responsible, law-abiding members of the community rather than "shoot first and deal with the fallout later" hair trigger renegades.

Finally, I submit that we should hold ourselves to a higher standard. Although we're technically the youngest of the major nations, we've been in New Eden as long as the other races. And we certainly know the difference between right and wrong. Our government needs to start reflecting that. They need to explain to us why they did what they did and be held accountable for breeches of the law.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#83 - 2013-10-18 15:34:49 UTC
Ray Mitar wrote:


Concord stood in the way of emancipating some of our people. That should serve as a lesson to the entire cluster. The Minmatar people will agress anyone who stands between us and emancipating our enslaved kinsmen.


The only problem is that you have a history of having your ass handed to you when you do so. I honestly DO understand that somethings demand a response even when the tactical odds are not in your favour, but the Republic Fleet has not performed in practice as it has on paper.

Are you getting baited into unequal fights?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Matar Ronin
#84 - 2013-10-18 23:33:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Matar Ronin
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Ray Mitar wrote:


Concord stood in the way of emancipating some of our people. That should serve as a lesson to the entire cluster. The Minmatar people will agress anyone who stands between us and emancipating our enslaved kinsmen.


The only problem is that you have a history of having your ass handed to you when you do so. I honestly DO understand that somethings demand a response even when the tactical odds are not in your favour, but the Republic Fleet has not performed in practice as it has on paper.

Are you getting baited into unequal fights?
Something must be wrong with this darn Neo-Com. Thought for a moment some Caldari bloke was talking about Minmatar having a history of getting their ass handed to them. Goodness knows as a Caldari he should be an expert on that. Having recently having their asses kicked by the Gallente.

Surely he is merely joking around. Memory has it the Minmatar fleet kicked Concord's ass, something no other Empire can claim. Was kicking butts and taking names until they encountered a previously unknown weapon wielded by the Amarr that reversed the fortunes of battle that had been flowing strongly in favor of the Minmatar. The Caldari on the other hand started the fight with the Gallente and got dispatched by purely convention means.

Speak with thoughtful words Caldari citizen, because your experience with having your ass handed to you is not yet complete. Like your ally the Amarr you both sit in smaller Empires then you did previously, and your adversaries are prospering.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#85 - 2013-10-19 01:02:02 UTC
Pilot Ronin please refer to my previous posts in this thread, the words of a loyal Matari pilot, and consider them carefully. You do neither yourself or our cause any favors by departing from logical arguments and engaging in personal attacks, particularly against a pilot whom I know to be fair and honorable and who holds no ill will towards us.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#86 - 2013-10-19 01:15:42 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Ray Mitar wrote:


Concord stood in the way of emancipating some of our people. That should serve as a lesson to the entire cluster. The Minmatar people will agress anyone who stands between us and emancipating our enslaved kinsmen.


The only problem is that you have a history of having your ass handed to you when you do so. I honestly DO understand that somethings demand a response even when the tactical odds are not in your favour, but the Republic Fleet has not performed in practice as it has on paper.

Are you getting baited into unequal fights?
Something must be wrong with this darn Neo-Com. Thought for a moment some Caldari bloke was talking about Minmatar having a history of getting their ass handed to them. Goodness knows as a Caldari he should be an expert on that. Having recently having their asses kicked by the Gallente.

Surely he is merely joking around. Memory has it the Minmatar fleet kicked Concord's ass, something no other Empire can claim. Was kicking butts and taking names until they encountered a previously unknown weapon wielded by the Amarr that reversed the fortunes of battle that had been flowing strongly in favor of the Minmatar. The Caldari on the other hand started the fight with the Gallente and got dispatched by purely convention means.

Speak with thoughtful words Caldari citizen, because your experience with having your ass handed to you is not yet complete. Like your ally the Amarr you both sit in smaller Empires then you did previously, and your adversaries are prospering.


For someone who ought to be an expert at phyrric battles, it's funny you don't recognise the price that the Federation paid over Caldari Prime for taking down a Titan that wasn't even shooting back properly.

At Coelie, on the other hand...

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Matar Ronin
#87 - 2013-10-19 02:31:18 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Pilot Ronin please refer to my previous posts in this thread, the words of a loyal Matari pilot, and consider them carefully. You do neither yourself or our cause any favors by departing from logical arguments and engaging in personal attacks, particularly against a pilot whom I know to be fair and honorable and who holds no ill will towards us.
Our cause is just. Your friends do not have to be mine, nor do mime have to be yours. A true friend is someone you can have a disagreement with and still be friends with afterwards. I have no need for friends I need tip toe around. The pilot in question is more then capable of verbally defending himself.

I have read some of his posts and he is neither timid nor meek. He is in this case is just another replay of the warmed over sad satirical refrain that the inept Minmatar can't win, while everyone else in the cluster does. That is hogwash. Ask Concord how inept we are.

The Caldari lost a Titan over Caldari Prime. Blame not the Admiral who followed military protocol. Some battles are not winnable. The Caldari should know this and not be so full of themselves.

Anabella Rella when your good friend the Caldari pilot lines up to kill Minmatar with his allies The Amarr, which side of the battle line will you be on? Will you follow orders and primary his ship when ordered? Will you pod express him back to a station and out of the fight? I will be with the Minmatar. Where will you be?

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Matar Ronin
#88 - 2013-10-19 02:40:35 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
For someone who ought to be an expert at phyrric battles, it's funny you don't recognise the price that the Federation paid over Caldari Prime for taking down a Titan that wasn't even shooting back properly.

At Coelie, on the other hand...
Right you didn't want that Titan anyway. Caldari Prime? Heck more trouble then its worth, right? The Caldari were decisively defeated. They lost control of what they had taken. Play with words all you want. In the end these facts are inescapable. The pyre was your broken Titan. The victory was Gallente's.

You'd do well to learn that harsh lesson instead of trying to poke at the battle records of others.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#89 - 2013-10-19 06:28:06 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
For someone who ought to be an expert at phyrric battles, it's funny you don't recognise the price that the Federation paid over Caldari Prime for taking down a Titan that wasn't even shooting back properly.

At Coelie, on the other hand...
Right you didn't want that Titan anyway. Caldari Prime? Heck more trouble then its worth, right? The Caldari were decisively defeated. They lost control of what they had taken. Play with words all you want. In the end these facts are inescapable. The pyre was your broken Titan. The victory was Gallente's.

You'd do well to learn that harsh lesson instead of trying to poke at the battle records of others.


When you own 55% of ANY planet in the Amarr system we'll have that talk on equal terms, pilot.

You don't have to tell me what the Third Battle of Caldari Prime cost because I was there and, like everyone else there, I paid in full and up front. That it happened at all was a bankruptcy of leadership in both the State and the Federation. There should have been a negotiated settlement LONG before the Caldari were forced to throw away a Titan plus support fleet and the Federation to throw away a small mountain worth of Dreadnoughts.

But what USE did we make of that pain? It brought BOTH of our nations to their senses. We got that negotiated settlement - one that is likely to endure. We also tossed out that bankrupt leadership, we honoured our hero and we made some painful choices as a people. Can you make the same claims? How did YOUR war advance the cause of peace? What lessons did YOU learn?

As for Miss Rella, you have hardly landed a blow with your insinuation that she'd place our friendship over her duty. She wouldn't. Everytime we've met in contested space she and hers have done their best to send me packing back home. Whenever her pilots have come to Black Rise it has been the same. I don't recall hearing any tales of YOUR exploits.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#90 - 2013-10-19 13:24:55 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
For someone who ought to be an expert at phyrric battles, it's funny you don't recognise the price that the Federation paid over Caldari Prime for taking down a Titan that wasn't even shooting back properly.

At Coelie, on the other hand...
Right you didn't want that Titan anyway. Caldari Prime? Heck more trouble then its worth, right? The Caldari were decisively defeated. They lost control of what they had taken. Play with words all you want. In the end these facts are inescapable. The pyre was your broken Titan. The victory was Gallente's.

You'd do well to learn that harsh lesson instead of trying to poke at the battle records of others.


I assume that Arzad is not worth the trouble for you either then ?
Matar Ronin
#91 - 2013-10-19 20:02:24 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Matar Ronin wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
For someone who ought to be an expert at phyrric battles, it's funny you don't recognise the price that the Federation paid over Caldari Prime for taking down a Titan that wasn't even shooting back properly.

At Coelie, on the other hand...
Right you didn't want that Titan anyway. Caldari Prime? Heck more trouble then its worth, right? The Caldari were decisively defeated. They lost control of what they had taken. Play with words all you want. In the end these facts are inescapable. The pyre was your broken Titan. The victory was Gallente's.

You'd do well to learn that harsh lesson instead of trying to poke at the battle records of others.


When you own 55% of ANY planet in the Amarr system we'll have that talk on equal terms, pilot.

You don't have to tell me what the Third Battle of Caldari Prime cost because I was there and, like everyone else there, I paid in full and up front. That it happened at all was a bankruptcy of leadership in both the State and the Federation. There should have been a negotiated settlement LONG before the Caldari were forced to throw away a Titan plus support fleet and the Federation to throw away a small mountain worth of Dreadnoughts.

But what USE did we make of that pain? It brought BOTH of our nations to their senses. We got that negotiated settlement - one that is likely to endure. We also tossed out that bankrupt leadership, we honoured our hero and we made some painful choices as a people. Can you make the same claims? How did YOUR war advance the cause of peace? What lessons did YOU learn?

As for Miss Rella, you have hardly landed a blow with your insinuation that she'd place our friendship over her duty. She wouldn't. Everytime we've met in contested space she and hers have done their best to send me packing back home. Whenever her pilots have come to Black Rise it has been the same. I don't recall hearing any tales of YOUR exploits.
In Null Sec where I often fly with my corp/alliance mates I have not had much need to regale you with tales of my exploits. Logistics are not very exciting to the unschooled. I take far greater satisfaction in how many ships we do not lose in a fight then I concern myself with piling up killmails. Being a JF pilot does not get me many opportunities to score kills but I could tell you of some harrowing moments. Battles are won by more then just combat pilots and I am proud to serve my corp/alliance in the many I am currently best skilled to do.

Being a pos gunner means I get to defend our assets and not be listed on killmails. Its worth it to keep our assets up and running. Everytime I deliver isotopes or ammo or material to defend our sov space I feel I am doing my part. Surely you are not implying logibros are not worthy pilots are you?

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#92 - 2013-10-19 21:17:10 UTC
With the greatest of respect for an unappreciated field of endeavour, I haven't been the one accusing anyone of being incompetent as pilots. I DID say that the Republic seems to have been taking very big chances for very little return, but that's in the region of politics and strategy, not so much in tactics.

I think my initial point has gone awry and I accept as much blame for that as anyone.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Matar Ronin
#93 - 2013-10-19 21:36:43 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
With the greatest of respect for an unappreciated field of endeavour, I haven't been the one accusing anyone of being incompetent as pilots. I DID say that the Republic seems to have been taking very big chances for very little return, but that's in the region of politics and strategy, not so much in tactics.

I think my initial point has gone awry and I accept as much blame for that as anyone.
I also see no further point in pursuit of an argument with a pilot honorable enough to face in combat.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#94 - 2013-10-20 03:28:06 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
With the greatest of respect for an unappreciated field of endeavour, I haven't been the one accusing anyone of being incompetent as pilots. I DID say that the Republic seems to have been taking very big chances for very little return, but that's in the region of politics and strategy, not so much in tactics.

I think my initial point has gone awry and I accept as much blame for that as anyone.
I also see no further point in pursuit of an argument with a pilot honorable enough to face in combat.


Ah, now that IS a Matari compliment. Fly dirty, pilot.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#95 - 2013-10-20 16:07:06 UTC  |  Edited by: N'maro Makari
Be quiet, Mr Ronin. You do us a disservice.

**Vherokior **
Matar Ronin
#96 - 2013-10-20 19:49:40 UTC
N'maro Makari wrote:
Be quiet, Mr Ronin. You do us a disservice.
Sir please follow your own instructions. I checked and you have no authority over me. Might I suggest you check your list of underlings prior to the further issuance of directives least you waste further time acting like the CEO of those you disagree with. Not being your CEO I can only suggest you communicate in a more equalitarian manner when posing here on IGS. It has been my observation most independent pilots do no react well to unsolicited freelance self appointed bosses.

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#97 - 2013-10-21 05:30:32 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
Our cause is just. Your friends do not have to be mine, nor do mime have to be yours. A true friend is someone you can have a disagreement with and still be friends with afterwards. I have no need for friends I need tip toe around. The pilot in question is more then capable of verbally defending himself.

I have read some of his posts and he is neither timid nor meek. He is in this case is just another replay of the warmed over sad satirical refrain that the inept Minmatar can't win, while everyone else in the cluster does. That is hogwash. Ask Concord how inept we are.

The Caldari lost a Titan over Caldari Prime. Blame not the Admiral who followed military protocol. Some battles are not winnable. The Caldari should know this and not be so full of themselves.

Anabella Rella when your good friend the Caldari pilot lines up to kill Minmatar with his allies The Amarr, which side of the battle line will you be on? Will you follow orders and primary his ship when ordered? Will you pod express him back to a station and out of the fight? I will be with the Minmatar. Where will you be?


First of all, Pilot Tuulinen is no friend of mine. I'm acquainted with him mainly from his IGS posts. Based on those posts and his combat record I know him to be an honorable warrior who holds no personal hatred towards our people. Like me, he's a soldier loyal to his nation. If we met in battle I'd do my best to destroy him and he'd attempt to do the same to me. Friendship (or lack thereof) never enters into the equation.

Second, you dare to question my loyalty? I shot down more hostile militia targets in August than you have during your entire career according to publicly available records. I've served nearly 2 of my 5.5 years as a pilot in the low sec war zones. I've earned the rank of Talon Commander in the TLF. How much time have you served in the militia? My entire adult life has been spent in service to the Minmatar people both in combat and building an industrial backbone for the Republic. As near as I can tell your only service has involved antagonizing and annoying people on this forum.

When you have some actual accomplishments to show or made any contribution to the war effort or the betterment of our people then, and only then, can you attempt to reproach me. Until then I'd advise you to follow Pilot Makari's advice.

Yes, our cause is just but, only the supremely arrogant or the supremely foolish refuse to take a step back for a bit of critical self-assessment. Just because we're right doesn't mean that we're doing everything right.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
N'maro Makari
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#98 - 2013-10-21 22:32:58 UTC
Matar Ronin wrote:
N'maro Makari wrote:
Be quiet, Mr Ronin. You do us a disservice.
Sir please follow your own instructions. I checked and you have no authority over me. Might I suggest you check your list of underlings prior to the further issuance of directives least you waste further time acting like the CEO of those you disagree with. Not being your CEO I can only suggest you communicate in a more equalitarian manner when posing here on IGS. It has been my observation most independent pilots do no react well to unsolicited freelance self appointed bosses.


You have come on to a public forum, and posted your ideas, which I have no quarrel with.

But in the same breath, you speak spite to your fellow Matari, who have done immesurably more than you to actually aid our people and our Republic.

You lie, and fabricate stories to make yourself appear more important than you are.

You snipe, spouting petty backtalk to people who have disagreed with you because you have nothing useful to say.

You beat you chest and howl with deluded pride over the death of others in costly wars.

I do not talk with you like an equal, because you behave like an emotional child.

**Vherokior **
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#99 - 2013-10-22 11:55:35 UTC
Pilot Ronin, having just questioned my sister's integrity and resolve, you crossed a line you'd have been well advised to stay behind.

I will not presume to speak for Anabella, so I will simply say what is on my mind;

Who the hell do you think you are? How dare you bring your opinionated, self-centered ass on these boards and question the resolve of anyone with far longer and more readily verifiable periods of service than you? How dare you second guess anyone's motives or fortitude, or dictate to anyone what "being Matari" should mean to them? Perhaps you should cease your chestbeating and tongue wagging long enough to take some of your own advice, and make sure you're not crossing a line from which there is no recovery.

My sister has proven, through a lifetime of service, her dedication to our nation, our Tribe, our Corporation, and even her Clan.

What have you done, "Matar Ronin"? Where are your kill marks?

Child.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Kaid Hayden
Seven Stars Search and Rescue
#100 - 2013-10-22 13:44:24 UTC
I was about to add a critique of Pilot Ronin, but all I could find were the debris of arguments already shot to bits, so here I am to deliver a message of love instead.

Anabella Rella wrote:


Pilot Mitar, what happened with our Federal allies went far beyond a difference of opinion. We sent warships into their sovereign territory with hostile intent on two occasions. Technically what the Republic Fleet did was an act of war and the Gallente would have been within their rights to declare war against us.

As to your point about being labeled pariahs, I'd ask you to search the IGS threads regarding the Colelie incidents. Our government managed in the span of less than a month to undo a century of accumulated goodwill towards our nation. Read for yourself the anger and outrage expressed by normally reasonable and supportive Federation pilots and citizens. Take a look at the recent story of a young Brutor man who was attacked by ethnic Gallenteans. These were the direct result of what happened at Colelie.


I wish I could say most, but I can definitely say a lot - there are a lot of Gallenteans who won't let the friendships we've built and progress we've made under leaders like Prime Minister Midular be destroyed by incidents like these. We all have the right and duty to hold our own nations to a higher standards than others, and we've not inflicted any wounds on each other that can't be healed in time.

Anabella Rella wrote:

Finally, I submit that we should hold ourselves to a higher standard. Although we're technically the youngest of the major nations, we've been in New Eden as long as the other races. And we certainly know the difference between right and wrong. Our government needs to start reflecting that. They need to explain to us why they did what they did and be held accountable for breeches of the law.


Being the youngest empire isn't a but, it's a because - you have a greater opportunity and power than empires that are too set in their ways to choose what you want the Republic to be and how. I know I have matari brothers and sisters and I trust them to make it something good for the cluster.