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Test Alliance Joining Caldari FW

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Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#121 - 2013-10-20 07:33:28 UTC
Another helpful tip: Cruiser can't fit into Small plexes

.
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2013-10-20 11:23:19 UTC
Well, let's be honest and fair - TEST is coming out of a region where warfare is radically different from Placid/Black Rise; they've been in the war zone less than a week; many (not all) of them are unfamiliar with the intricacies of light-craft small-gang tactics that you need to know to survive in faction war; and they're going head-to-head against battle-hardened veterans. Historically, newly-deployed forces in an established combat zone have often had a lot of difficulty in the initial stages.

For example, the "pod survival mode" that many of us take for granted - spam warp to a celestial when your ship is going down - is often not an option in null, what with dictors and hictors and bubbles. I went out to null for a spell, and a lot of my Black Rise lessons were useless; going from Fountain/Delve/Querious into Black Rise requires even more unlearning, with a lot of nullsec support systems simply not available.

Five days isn't a lot of time to unlearn not just doctrines, but the philosophies underlying them. Things will undoubtedly change.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Seraph Castillon
Death Metal Frogs
Ribbit.
#123 - 2013-10-20 11:45:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Seraph Castillon
Marc Callan wrote:
...


There is a difference between not being familiar with low sec mechanics and being borderline mentally ********.

-When you warp in to their plex they very often just lay down and die.
-They manage to lose their ships to fits that they should hard-counter.
-They drift around in or outside of plexes for no apparent reason and when you burn for them they seem so surprised that they, again, just lay down and die.
-When in gangs they have a tendency to feed you their ships one by one rather than warp in as a group and actually fight.
-They seem at all times totally disorganized. I've seen people in my corp warp into whole gangs of them and come out alive with like 7-10 kills.
-They seem to have no way of distributing intel. You can camp gates that are vital to them for hours, be uncontested and continue to getting kills the entire time.

These and other things will get you killed in nullsec as well. They show that these pilots know very little about the game in general and have no PvP reflexes to speak of. I understand some of these guys are new to EVE and in that case a lot of these things can be forgiven and simply attributed to the fact that you don't learn EVE PvP over night. But there are loads that should know better.
Seraph Castillon
Death Metal Frogs
Ribbit.
#124 - 2013-10-20 12:15:54 UTC
Major Killz wrote:

Caldari may have more pilots but the combat component as a percentage of the total is low. For example: Caldari has 100 pilots but only 13 participate in combat; compared to Gallente that have 65 but field 40 pilots.

Gallente seem to field substantially more combat pilots than Caldari are capable of deploying. As far as I can remember. It's been that way since late 2010, early 2011.

NOT TO MENTION strange things like corporations in Cal factional warfare that literally never go to low security space at all (why are you in factional warfare?). Also I know there's a lot of NCDOT, PL, and NULLI isk farmers in Amarr, Minmatar and Caldari militia. Seems near 30% of the pilots in these entities have alts in factional warfare (very common).


I feel strongly that leading corporations in the militia are at least partially responsible for shaping that militia.

-Don't accept the farmers. You cannot purge those farming alts from your militia, but at least you'll show the new guys that they are not the norm, but rather the despised exception. You'll show them that that is not who they want to be in EVE.
-Have some standards in your recruiting. I see State Protectorate guys who spend months cloaking in plexes end up in core corporations and continuing to do the same in there. Why do you recruit these people?
-Educate your militia. Spend some time answering the questions that pop up in militia chat (and definitely in fleets). Use those answers to steer these new guys to become the active combat pilots that you want and need rather than uninvolved solo plexers.
It's OK for people to be new and clueless. Teach them and they will learn so much faster than when you ignore them and leave them to their own devices.
ZheoTheThird
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2013-10-20 12:41:05 UTC
Seraph Castillon wrote:
Marc Callan wrote:
...


There is a difference between not being familiar with low sec mechanics and being borderline mentally ********.

-When you warp in to their plex they very often just lay down and die.
-They manage to lose their ships to fits that they should hard-counter.
-They drift around in or outside of plexes for no apparent reason and when you burn for them they seem so surprised that they, again, just lay down and die.
-When in gangs they have a tendency to feed you their ships one by one rather than warp in as a group and actually fight.
-They seem at all times totally disorganized. I've seen people in my corp warp into whole gangs of them and come out alive with like 7-10 kills.
-They seem to have no way of distributing intel. You can camp gates that are vital to them for hours, be uncontested and continue to getting kills the entire time.

These and other things will get you killed in nullsec as well. They show that these pilots know very little about the game in general and have no PvP reflexes to speak of. I understand some of these guys are new to EVE and in that case a lot of these things can be forgiven and simply attributed to the fact that you don't learn EVE PvP over night. But there are loads that should know better.


You see, there are a couple of problems we're facing right now that Marc has sort of explained already.

What are these PvP reflexes you're speaking of? Our pilots are used to flying big, slow battleships and battlecruisers. The only responsibility they have had in fleets so far is listening to the FC, locking up the primary and pressing F1. We are facing people who've done small gang pvp for years, know their fits and their systems in and out and who operate in highly efficient small fleets. We've become slightly better during curse, but apparently not good enough for the leetest of the leet pvpers of eve.

Disorganization? Knowing little about the game? Missing PvP reflexes? That's the things we're famous for.

We have an intel channel. We've been here for less than a week and all these weird system names still make my head spin - give our members time to learn the region map.

In general, give us time. We have lots of confused newbros who are sitting in their t1 fit slasher in a novice plex when suddenly a 5 year old player comes in and decides to volley them off with his navy slicer, we are trying to clean out the constellation and pick a staging system. We will push, we will get better at the game, whether we or you want it or not, and we will push the frogs out of Nenna. But don't expect us to do that within the first week.

About ladistier, since it's only being defended for roleplaying reasons I don't see us making a move there. Oh, and shoutout to calmil, you guys are generally really cool dudes. (TEST is recruiting)
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#126 - 2013-10-20 12:44:56 UTC
Seraph Castillon wrote:
Major Killz wrote:

Caldari may have more pilots but the combat component as a percentage of the total is low. For example: Caldari has 100 pilots but only 13 participate in combat; compared to Gallente that have 65 but field 40 pilots.

Gallente seem to field substantially more combat pilots than Caldari are capable of deploying. As far as I can remember. It's been that way since late 2010, early 2011.

NOT TO MENTION strange things like corporations in Cal factional warfare that literally never go to low security space at all (why are you in factional warfare?). Also I know there's a lot of NCDOT, PL, and NULLI isk farmers in Amarr, Minmatar and Caldari militia. Seems near 30% of the pilots in these entities have alts in factional warfare (very common).


I feel strongly that leading corporations in the militia are at least partially responsible for shaping that militia.

-Don't accept the farmers. You cannot purge those farming alts from your militia, but at least you'll show the new guys that they are not the norm, but rather the despised exception. You'll show them that that is not who they want to be in EVE.
-Have some standards in your recruiting. I see State Protectorate guys who spend months cloaking in plexes end up in core corporations and continuing to do the same in there. Why do you recruit these people?
-Educate your militia. Spend some time answering the questions that pop up in militia chat (and definitely in fleets). Use those answers to steer these new guys to become the active combat pilots that you want and need rather than uninvolved solo plexers.
It's OK for people to be new and clueless. Teach them and they will learn so much faster than when you ignore them and leave them to their own devices.


And I think you listen to too much Justified Chaos internal and external propa-blather Roll

Most farmers create their own private corporations for such activities or just keep their alts in regular militia. Still, most players in factional warfare farm or have alts that do so.

Anyway, when it comes to actually having experience managing a successful corporation I wouldn't take advice from most factional warfare corporation. Most haven't been tested and have had the training wheels of factional warfare and codependents on other militia fleet commanders or organized fleets.

The day that your corporation leaves factional warfare and goes to Molden Heath and survives and thrives there for 6 month or a year. Then your views might have some weight behind it. Otherwise, no...

Otherwise, stop congratulating yourselves for defeating handicaps.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Seraph Castillon
Death Metal Frogs
Ribbit.
#127 - 2013-10-20 14:06:02 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
And I think you listen to too much Justified Chaos internal and external propa-blather Roll

Most farmers create their own private corporations for such activities or just keep their alts in regular militia. Still, most players in factional warfare farm or have alts that do so.

Anyway, when it comes to actually having experience managing a successful corporation I wouldn't take advice from most factional warfare corporation. Most haven't been tested and have had the training wheels of factional warfare and codependents on other militia fleet commanders or organized fleets.

The day that your corporation leaves factional warfare and goes to Molden Heath and survives and thrives there for 6 month or a year. Then your views might have some weight behind it. Otherwise, no...

Otherwise, stop congratulating yourselves for defeating handicaps.


JUSTK propa-blather, best propa-blather. :p

You are right. Gallente Millitia corporations are heavily codependent. There are a lot of corps that are small and/or individually weak. However I see this codependency as a strength rather than a weakness. It means that there is no single point failure. There is no FC that has to do it all. There is no corporation or alliance on which everything depends. Pilots are accepted as viable and valuable fleet members in fleets that are run by FCs out of their corporation.

All of this may not be ideal for life in nullsec or whatever you want to use as a test of greatness, but within the confines of FW it works really well.

ZheoTheThird wrote:
You see, there are a couple of problems we're facing right now that Marc has sort of explained already.

What are these PvP reflexes you're speaking of? Our pilots are used to flying big, slow battleships and battlecruisers. The only responsibility they have had in fleets so far is listening to the FC, locking up the primary and pressing F1. We are facing people who've done small gang pvp for years, know their fits and their systems in and out and who operate in highly efficient small fleets. We've become slightly better during curse, but apparently not good enough for the leetest of the leet pvpers of eve.

Disorganization? Knowing little about the game? Missing PvP reflexes? That's the things we're famous for.

We have an intel channel. We've been here for less than a week and all these weird system names still make my head spin - give our members time to learn the region map.

In general, give us time. We have lots of confused newbros who are sitting in their t1 fit slasher in a novice plex when suddenly a 5 year old player comes in and decides to volley them off with his navy slicer, we are trying to clean out the constellation and pick a staging system. We will push, we will get better at the game, whether we or you want it or not, and we will push the frogs out of Nenna. But don't expect us to do that within the first week.

About ladistier, since it's only being defended for roleplaying reasons I don't see us making a move there. Oh, and shoutout to calmil, you guys are generally really cool dudes. (TEST is recruiting)



The both of you seem like something TEST needs more of, but doesn't have enough of. Anyway, I'm not sure I am willing to accept the fact that your pilots are used to nullsec as an excuse for their deer in headlights response to lowsec PvP or total incompetence in fleets. Did your pilots never go out by themselves or in a small group in null? Was it acceptable to warp one by one when fleeted in null?

I hope you get better as it will force us to do the same, but I'm very sceptical after the first glance I've caught of TEST.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#128 - 2013-10-20 14:42:11 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Seraph Castillon wrote:

You are right. Gallente Millitia corporations are heavily codependent. There are a lot of corps that are small and/or individually weak. However I see this codependency as a strength rather than a weakness. It means that there is no single point failure. There is no FC that has to do it all. There is no corporation or alliance on which everything depends. Pilots are accepted as viable and valuable fleet members in fleets that are run by FCs out of their corporation.

A single twig breaks, but the bundle of twigs is strong. - Tecumseh

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/tecumseh190009.html

Or, as we like to say in Gallente Militia: ""A single derp atron is weak, but the gang of derps is strong.""
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#129 - 2013-10-20 14:53:45 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
The day that your corporation leaves factional warfare and goes to Molden Heath and survives and thrives there for 6 month or a year. Then your views might have some weight behind it. Otherwise, no...

I was thinking of moving our corp out to Solitude where all the pro-pvp alliances in Eve live.

On a serious note: Sorry man, we're all pvp addicts and there's too much of it where we live right now.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Molden_Heath#kills24 (Dead)

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Caldari_VS_Gallente#kills24 (Living - more kills in a single system (several single systems) than in all of Molden Heath)
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#130 - 2013-10-20 15:24:50 UTC
ZheoTheThird wrote:
In general, give us time. We have lots of confused newbros who are sitting in their t1 fit slasher in a novice plex when suddenly a 5 year old player comes in and decides to volley them off with his navy slicer, we are trying to clean out the constellation and pick a staging system. We will push, we will get better at the game, whether we or you want it or not, and we will push the frogs out of Nenna. But don't expect us to do that within the first week.


Props for this, shows that you're aware of what you're up against. I know this is totally against the TEST culture, but having a bit of humility and not spamming crap ascii art in local will probably get you a lot further with the FW militia folks. You're not flying against The Mittani here, you're flying against folks who are competent small gang pilots and have been doing this for a while.

Oh, and a lot of us have been in nullsec before, done the sov warfare thing before. Some of us ran nullsec alliances before you could even really claim sov to begin with. We've got folks who ran whole logisitics networks, folks who've built outposts even.

Most of us are here so that we can get our PvP fix without all the nullsec bullcrap that makes it so damn boring out in the Big Blue Donut.

We're not the kind to wait around for a CTA to go PvP. We don't stop what we're doing as soon as a neutral or a war target jumps into system. We don't care about the politics, we let our guns do the talking instead. We don't overrreach areas we can control, we exert control over an area by living, fighting, and dying there. Want to see what "Farms and Fields" really looks like? Take a look at FW and NPC nullsec. Those folks have been doing it for ages, if CCP would simply take a look.

In short, very very few of us think that nullsec is the end all be all of EVE PvP. A lot of us have been there, done that, and said screw it we want something different.

We look forward to seeing TEST evolve in this new environment, and most of the leading GalMil corps have no issue at all giving credit where credit is due. The Innia based crews are always up for a fight, OLD MAN GANG has made a helluva stand around OMS, Heyd and Ladistier. We'll see what TEST becomes while you're out here.

If nothing else, with the new warp speed and interceptor changes, a few months in FW will give TEST the skills and reflexes to shut down entire regions of nullsec pansies. As you've already seen, large fleets mean nothing in the face of pilots who can operate independently and harass multiple systems at a time.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Shadow Adanza
Gold Crest Salvage
#131 - 2013-10-20 16:19:34 UTC
ZheoTheThird wrote:


Nenna by christmas

Seriously though, you guys can't spam local. I feel like that's the reason you're losing


Lol losing?
Our killboards are full of kills. That's winning. Gallente have never really cared for controlling systems.

Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#132 - 2013-10-20 16:53:23 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Major Killz wrote:
The day that your corporation leaves factional warfare and goes to Molden Heath and survives and thrives there for 6 month or a year. Then your views might have some weight behind it. Otherwise, no...

I was thinking of moving our corp out to Solitude where all the pro-pvp alliances in Eve live.

On a serious note: Sorry man, we're all pvp addicts and there's too much of it where we live right now.

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Molden_Heath#kills24 (Dead)

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Caldari_VS_Gallente#kills24 (Living - more kills in a single system (several single systems) than in all of Molden Heath)



I don't care where and how you enjoy the game, nor care.

I find and have engaged in a lot of combat wherever I am or have been. I'm fine and good wherever I am; can your corp say the same?

Anyway.

I'm calling bullshit whenever you're corporations members espouse their corporations GREAT LEADERSHIP AND MANAGEMENT on the forums. Those who are not ******** know the minute your corporation goes to another region outside of factional warfare. 80% of your members would leave.

I'd love to hear about how great Deen Wispa's parenting skills are then Big smile

What I'm saying is that your corporations leadership/management has NEVER really been tested but yet feels the need to belittle Caldari corporations and alliances with their dribble and silly vicarious advice. Not to mention I like to sh!t in others Cheerios from time to time v0v

You know!? I had an analogy about secret sauce to put here but couldn't understand it my self v0v

I'm also interested in seeing what would happen if your corp. joined Caldari militia.

Also, I'm all for starting beef with whom ever over whatever because that is how a maverick-renegade rolls Ugh

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#133 - 2013-10-20 18:04:32 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
I'm calling bullshit whenever you're corporations members espouse their corporations GREAT LEADERSHIP AND MANAGEMENT on the forums. Those who are not ******** know the minute your corporation goes to another region outside of factional warfare. 80% of your members would leave.

I hope they'd leave, because I'd be right there with them forming a new Gallente FW corp. You seem to miss some big picture stuff with your rants. Just sayin'
Markus Auralias
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2013-10-20 18:05:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Auralias
I can confirm that spamming ascii art is the true path to autism. Giving up our most potent cultural tool would be the same as acknowledging that the goons are not the source of all eve problems.

Typing statements in all caps has nothing on us.
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#135 - 2013-10-20 18:21:28 UTC
Why would we leave BlackRise FW? It has the most fights/kills per system than any other area in Eve. No idea how that makes us 'untested' compared to other regions.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#136 - 2013-10-20 22:35:16 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Major Killz wrote:
I'm calling bullshit whenever you're corporations members espouse their corporations GREAT LEADERSHIP AND MANAGEMENT on the forums. Those who are not ******** know the minute your corporation goes to another region outside of factional warfare. 80% of your members would leave.

I hope they'd leave, because I'd be right there with them forming a new Gallente FW corp. You seem to miss some big picture stuff with your rants. Just sayin'



What would those "big picture stuff" be?

I can link numerous threads where members of Justified Chaos suggest they're doing EVERYTHING RIGHT and corporations in the Caldari militia are NOT.

If we're to believe what members of Justified Chaos state almost every week on the forums. Then it's "success" is derived from leadership, management, logistics and organization. However, I don't agree. Mainly because the Gallente militia was doing well long before Justified Chaos WAS EVEN CREATED.

So what things or "big picture stuff" is Justified Chaos doing that contributes to its "success"? Other than being on or joining the side that has been winning FOR YEARS.

It's like a pilot who joins Pandemic Legion and then assumes the mantle of "elite" or a corporation who leaves a losing Test alliance and joins Goonswarm Federation and assumes the mantle of "winner".

I'm suggesting that if Justified Chaos joined the Caldari side or left factional warfare that it would fail for all the reasons members have previously stated that they excel at or makes their corporation unique. I assume a good corporation remains such even through challenging times. I assume you cannot be challenged if you're on the winning side or are dominating a conflict. Which is why I was responding to Veskrashen suggestions on what the Test/Caldari should do.

I doubt Veskrashen understands the struggles and frustrations that Caldari pilots, corporation or alliances have to deal with under constant failure. There's not many competent Caldari entities that a new corporation or pilot can rely on. Entities which could do so much damage to the other side that adding your input would just beating a dead horse. If Justified Chaos did nothing for 6 months the Caldari would still be losing.

Not to mention that the Caldari have long since given up on aspirations of producing competent pilots or strong entities. Their answer was to focus on system control mechanics while they were being wiped out on the combat side. Why would you give up on what should be the ultimate goal of any pvp entity? Yet your suggestion is that they to continue to focus on that sh!t instead of just pvp. Which is why they fail in the end

Anyway.

Simply put. Anytime I read something from a member of Justified Chaos with regard to comparisons between themselves or advice based on what they're doing in an easy environment to the Caldari comparatively . I will **** on that posters shoes and call it rain v0v

*Caldari wizard hat off*

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#137 - 2013-10-20 22:54:49 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:


Props for this, shows that you're aware of what you're up against. I know this is totally against the TEST culture, but having a bit of humility and not spamming crap ascii art in local will probably get you a lot further with the FW militia folks. You're not flying against The Mittani here, you're flying against folks who are competent small gang pilots and have been doing this for a while.



Dem feels when people actually get their jimmies rustled an ascii frog of mmd in local.

"How dare you disrespect us with something you do win or lose, fight or run, rain or shine! We're competent pilots and have been doing FW for a long time! After we dunk your entire fleet you should tell us how awesome we are in local or awknowledge that you just lost your entire fleet!" grr TEST

Don't worry Vesk, soon enough TEST will have gone back to nullsec and you won't have to worry about them anymore.

The moar you cry the less you pee
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#138 - 2013-10-20 23:08:49 UTC  |  Edited by: chatgris
Major Killz wrote:

If we're to believe what members of Justified Chaos state almost every week on the forums. Then it's "success" is derived from leadership, management, logistics and organization. However, I don't agree. Mainly because the Gallente militia was doing well long before Justified Chaos WAS EVEN CREATED.


I just felt obliged to state that Justified Chaos's core leadership has a much longer history than just their corporation's lifespan, and X G has been a Gallente militia patriot through thick and thin, whether the Gallente were winning or losing. (For example, Juan Rayo was the founder of QCATS, and X G has been with us since our Villore days before he split off).
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#139 - 2013-10-20 23:35:53 UTC  |  Edited by: IbanezLaney
Major Killz wrote:
Their answer was to focus on system control mechanics while they were being wiped out on the combat side. Why would you give up on what should be the ultimate goal of any pvp entity?



Who is being wiped out on the combat side??????

Most of Sunday AU time
(hmm ill play with this in a min and get the link to work - Dunno why it says invalid. )


Caldari have less on field - Caldari kill more consistently.



Test will get better - They just need discipline.
Once they 'get it' -The Gallente have no chance.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#140 - 2013-10-20 23:36:49 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Major Killz wrote:

If we're to believe what members of Justified Chaos state almost every week on the forums. Then it's "success" is derived from leadership, management, logistics and organization. However, I don't agree. Mainly because the Gallente militia was doing well long before Justified Chaos WAS EVEN CREATED.


I just felt obliged to state that Justified Chaos's core leadership has a much longer history than just their corporation's lifespan, and X G has been a Gallente militia patriot through thick and thin, whether the Gallente were winning or losing. (For example, Juan Rayo was the founder of QCATS, and X G has been with us since our Villore days before he split off).


Aye. Gal corps trade pilots like trading cards v0v

Also, when where the gals ever losing in terms of pvp?

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]