These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Why do so many see EvE as "shoot at other people PvP" game?

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#81 - 2013-10-20 20:39:19 UTC
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
The pvp is pretty cool and all, but it isn't what EVE, or any sandbox ever, are supposed to be all about. These folk who treat the sandbox no differently than some online FPS remind me so much of some self-righteous vegans and their dogmatic hold that even though our species [human] are omnivore, everyone touching meat is just DOING IT WRONG!


Actually, they recently came out with some research that shows that soybeans when used as a primary source of protein, may be a significant carcinogen.

So it's the veg-heads that are doing it wrong.

I'll tell you a secret, though. It's usually the loudest and whiniest ones who you can reasonably assume are automatically wrong. That's why I'm a ganker, in fact, I got tired of the vocal complaining and, vitriol and vehemence of the carebear community.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Enduros
UK Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#82 - 2013-10-20 20:48:05 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
The pvp is pretty cool and all, but it isn't what EVE, or any sandbox ever, are supposed to be all about. These folk who treat the sandbox no differently than some online FPS remind me so much of some self-righteous vegans and their dogmatic hold that even though our species [human] are omnivore, everyone touching meat is just DOING IT WRONG!


Actually, they recently came out with some research that shows that soybeans when used as a primary source of protein, may be a significant carcinogen.

Not to mention the plants you need for your vegan diet don't even grow in most climates. The resource drain to even enable you to survive a vegan diet with all the supplements you need I imagine are far more taxing on the environment then raising livestock. As for the ethical part... well nature is neither good nor evil, it's neutral.
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#83 - 2013-10-20 20:55:14 UTC
its not about shooting people, its about shooting goons...

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
Enduros
UK Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#84 - 2013-10-20 20:58:04 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:
its not about shooting people, its about shooting goons...

Don't we need to post your name 3 times in a row for you to show up?
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#85 - 2013-10-20 21:00:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Skeln Thargensen
Enduros wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
The pvp is pretty cool and all, but it isn't what EVE, or any sandbox ever, are supposed to be all about. These folk who treat the sandbox no differently than some online FPS remind me so much of some self-righteous vegans and their dogmatic hold that even though our species [human] are omnivore, everyone touching meat is just DOING IT WRONG!


Actually, they recently came out with some research that shows that soybeans when used as a primary source of protein, may be a significant carcinogen.

Not to mention the plants you need for your vegan diet don't even grow in most climates. The resource drain to even enable you to survive a vegan diet with all the supplements you need I imagine are far more taxing on the environment then raising livestock. As for the ethical part... well nature is neither good nor evil, it's neutral.


err... much of the food we eat isn't grown in our climate (depending on where that is, in the US maybe you've got it all). and the energy, fresh water and water treatment demands of livestock farming are significant.

not that i'm vegan but it's funny how defensive eating vegetables makes people.

forums.  serious business.
No Means No
meh fackit
#86 - 2013-10-20 21:38:27 UTC
Didnt read.
Gargep Farrow
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2013-10-20 21:49:31 UTC
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
The pvp is pretty cool and all, but it isn't what EVE, or any sandbox ever, are supposed to be all about. These folk who treat the sandbox no differently than some online FPS remind me so much of some self-righteous vegans and their dogmatic hold that even though our species [human] are omnivore, everyone touching meat is just DOING IT WRONG!

You are right and wrong at the same time. Unlike non sandbox games where crafting/industrial activities are just sidelines and most of the economy is driven by NPC's, Here in Eve you are always competing against other players and NPC have a much lower influence on the market. Miners have to compete against other miners to get the ore first, and then get the best price for those ores. If you manufacture you are always in price competition with other players to find the best market and to set the best price. In a broad definition it is PvP.
Is it Pure PvP combat? Debatable. Just like ganking miners. I just cant see ganking as being PvP combat. Its maybe a 6 mouse button click operation.
1. warp to belt
2. lock on to mining ship
3. overload racks
4. fire guns
5. activate Warp disruptor (optional)
6. watch mining ship go pop.
Lets face reality here, mission rats provide more of a challenge.
Having said that, I do not want to eliminate gankers. They add danger to what would otherwise be grinding out isk. Like other posters talk about the heart rate increase when they hit gate camp, the same goes for when any Cata or T1 cruiser enters a belt. there is an increase in heart rate wondering if that pilot is out ratting or if they are eyeballing my ship for a target. What I would like to see changed is for miner to have a reasonable option to occasionally turn the tables on the gankers. One that doesnt involve a second ship doing the mind numbing task of sitting cloaked 3k away from the mining ship waiting on the off chance a ganker does show up. Something that doesnt make ganking impossible or even all that dangerous, but just enough to make them worry every time they start to warp in on their target. Its all about Risk vs Reward isnt it? ( losing a cheap fit Cata or T1 cruiser to Concord is not a risk, it is the cost of doing business, since it happens every time.)

Your comparison to Vegans though is spot on
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#88 - 2013-10-20 23:03:15 UTC
Gargep Farrow wrote:
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
The pvp is pretty cool and all, but it isn't what EVE, or any sandbox ever, are supposed to be all about. These folk who treat the sandbox no differently than some online FPS remind me so much of some self-righteous vegans and their dogmatic hold that even though our species [human] are omnivore, everyone touching meat is just DOING IT WRONG!

You are right and wrong at the same time. Unlike non sandbox games where crafting/industrial activities are just sidelines and most of the economy is driven by NPC's, Here in Eve you are always competing against other players and NPC have a much lower influence on the market. Miners have to compete against other miners to get the ore first, and then get the best price for those ores. If you manufacture you are always in price competition with other players to find the best market and to set the best price. In a broad definition it is PvP.
Is it Pure PvP combat? Debatable. Just like ganking miners. I just cant see ganking as being PvP combat. Its maybe a 6 mouse button click operation.
1. warp to belt
2. lock on to mining ship
3. overload racks
4. fire guns
5. activate Warp disruptor (optional)
6. watch mining ship go pop.
Lets face reality here, mission rats provide more of a challenge.
Having said that, I do not want to eliminate gankers. They add danger to what would otherwise be grinding out isk. Like other posters talk about the heart rate increase when they hit gate camp, the same goes for when any Cata or T1 cruiser enters a belt. there is an increase in heart rate wondering if that pilot is out ratting or if they are eyeballing my ship for a target. What I would like to see changed is for miner to have a reasonable option to occasionally turn the tables on the gankers. One that doesnt involve a second ship doing the mind numbing task of sitting cloaked 3k away from the mining ship waiting on the off chance a ganker does show up. Something that doesnt make ganking impossible or even all that dangerous, but just enough to make them worry every time they start to warp in on their target. Its all about Risk vs Reward isnt it? ( losing a cheap fit Cata or T1 cruiser to Concord is not a risk, it is the cost of doing business, since it happens every time.)

Your comparison to Vegans though is spot on


Thing is though if miners did have a fighting chance of seeing off gankers, they wouldn't get ganked. This says a lot more about gankers than miners, who are eves real carebears as there is no risk to what they do.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
destiny2
Decaying Rocky Odious Non Evil Stupid Inane Nobody
Rogue Drone Recovery Syndicate
#89 - 2013-10-21 00:00:20 UTC
In the long run every eve player is a carebear in some way, Players do like to deny it but in a sense we all do things that are relative to being a carebear.
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#90 - 2013-10-21 00:11:30 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:
its not about shooting people, its about shooting goons...


quoted for truth

also, where can i get in one of these fleets where all i have to do is mash f1?
Gargep Farrow
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2013-10-21 00:31:31 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Gargep Farrow wrote:
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
The pvp is pretty cool and all, but it isn't what EVE, or any sandbox ever, are supposed to be all about. These folk who treat the sandbox no differently than some online FPS remind me so much of some self-righteous vegans and their dogmatic hold that even though our species [human] are omnivore, everyone touching meat is just DOING IT WRONG!

You are right and wrong at the same time. Unlike non sandbox games where crafting/industrial activities are just sidelines and most of the economy is driven by NPC's, Here in Eve you are always competing against other players and NPC have a much lower influence on the market. Miners have to compete against other miners to get the ore first, and then get the best price for those ores. If you manufacture you are always in price competition with other players to find the best market and to set the best price. In a broad definition it is PvP.
Is it Pure PvP combat? Debatable. Just like ganking miners. I just cant see ganking as being PvP combat. Its maybe a 6 mouse button click operation.
1. warp to belt
2. lock on to mining ship
3. overload racks
4. fire guns
5. activate Warp disruptor (optional)
6. watch mining ship go pop.
Lets face reality here, mission rats provide more of a challenge.
Having said that, I do not want to eliminate gankers. They add danger to what would otherwise be grinding out isk. Like other posters talk about the heart rate increase when they hit gate camp, the same goes for when any Cata or T1 cruiser enters a belt. there is an increase in heart rate wondering if that pilot is out ratting or if they are eyeballing my ship for a target. What I would like to see changed is for miner to have a reasonable option to occasionally turn the tables on the gankers. One that doesnt involve a second ship doing the mind numbing task of sitting cloaked 3k away from the mining ship waiting on the off chance a ganker does show up. Something that doesnt make ganking impossible or even all that dangerous, but just enough to make them worry every time they start to warp in on their target. Its all about Risk vs Reward isnt it? ( losing a cheap fit Cata or T1 cruiser to Concord is not a risk, it is the cost of doing business, since it happens every time.)

Your comparison to Vegans though is spot on


Thing is though if miners did have a fighting chance of seeing off gankers, they wouldn't get ganked. This says a lot more about gankers than miners, who are eves real carebears as there is no risk to what they do.

Too true, both want their activity made and kept risk free.
I wonder what that puts me though. I mine, but dont want to see ganking eliminated because I want the added risk they add to the game. Its so much more fun having to look at all other ships and wonder which ones of them want to pop me and stealz all my stuffs, and basically fly around like they all do.
Greenmachine Sale
Cathars
#92 - 2013-10-21 02:55:13 UTC
Tron 3K wrote:
Enduros wrote:
Just looked at the topics on the forums and many threads have something in the lines of "eve is a pvp game, remove hi-sec, all miners must die, all carebears must be ganked, need force-undock module, etc" Basically if you aren't flying around trying to shoot at other people you are playing the game wrong and should just biomass yourself. I'm interested in where this is coming from. Obviously it mostly comes up for trolling purposes, but a great deal of people do subscribe to this notion and are unwilling to see past it and I would like to know why that is.

I play EvE because I like flying spaceships. I like how you can fit ships in EvE. I like the huge amount of ships and modules available and that there is actually a balance and everything is useful depending on the situation. I like that there is no end-game and no "best ship". I like the lack of safety, "no respawn" and that you can kill anyone and everything (supercap proliferation aside ofc). I like the way the economy works and that there is a history behind every piece of equipment. I like how EvE works, for the most part anyway.

Someone found a DED site and sold me the bookmark. I ran the site and got a mach bpc. I took all my bpcs to empire and paid a guy to move them to a factory station. I had to avoid many people that were out to get me soon as they saw me. Someone had to mine the ice to fuel my carrier. I then got on my alt and bought some minerals in Jita. Someone had to make the ships to mine the rocks to get those minerals and move them to jita and then list them where they eventually end up in my hands. I then paid another guy to move the minerals to my factory station because there were 7 wardecs on me. After my ships were ready they were sold. Perhaps one of them is in low-sec hunting other people, one might be in an incursion fleet as this post is written and I'm sure that at least 2 are busy shooting red crosses in lvl 4s. Eventually they will die, but hopefully not before bringing either wealth or glory to their owners, reduced to a wreck which might live on as a piece of a rig that I myself might buy one day. I think this is beautiful. Why people see this game as only the assisting in the destruction of things is beyond me.

And this PvP that many hold in such high regard isn't even that good. I like reading about all those 2k man blob fests, but I still know that it's a bunch of F1 monkeys with only a few people doing anything skillful. So small-gank... erm gang warfare. Well most of those fights are ganks. Most fights have the outcome decided before the fight begins and if it's not favorable all effort is made to avoid the fight. Most of the time PvP in EvE boils down to a bunch of running around and then a little bit of shooting. It's fun to do sometimes, but it doesn't exactly stand out as something great. The closest thing to a fair fight in eve are the alliance tournaments, but such an arranged arena style combat has no place in the sandbox and thus can be ingored.

PvP can ofcourse be fun. Dropping a bunch of bombers on someone is funny. Being on the receiving end however is not and I can totally relate to the unfortunate victim. For me blowing stuff up just for killmail's sake falls short of having a good time especially if you factor all the time and effort it takes to get it done. The pace and balance of it all is not enough for my liking to elevate it above the other things you can do in this game.

If you compare EvE to something like quake, dota or starcraft you will need to admit that an encounter in those other games will require way more skill then your average skirmish in EvE. And incidentally the more people you have the less skill you need. For pvp I like those games way more. I love getting the perfect rocket-plasma-rail combo in quake, I love a perfectly timed combo in a dota teamfight and I like they way I placed my units in starcraft as they destroyed the other guy's army without me having to worry about someone not aligning or flying out of rep range. With all these and more options why would I waste my time on EvE pvp when in the same time I could get way more good fights from any of those other options that I enjoy more?

I like spaceships and spreadsheets. I would like for someone to explain why I'm playing the game wrong. Oh and there isn't any butthurt in this post. Many will try to prove otherwise, but most of the losses on this toon are from flying drunk or bad cynos so nothing to complain about.

I'm really interested why one activity (pew pew) is so overwhelmingly favored that anyone not of the same mind set and favoring something different deserves ridicule. Anyone got an answer?


TLDR: I don't want to die! Please don't shoot me!


WHY DID YOU QUOTE THE OP'S WHOLE ******* POST **** YOU *****
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#93 - 2013-10-21 03:03:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Felicity Love
Enduros wrote:
Just looked at the topics on the forums and many threads have something in the lines of "eve is a pvp game, remove hi-sec, all miners must die, all carebears must be ganked, need force-undock module, etc" Basically if you aren't flying around trying to shoot at other people you are playing the game wrong and should just biomass yourself. I'm interested in where this is coming from. Obviously it mostly comes up for trolling purposes, but a great deal of people do subscribe to this notion and are unwilling to see past it and I would like to know why that is.


Mostly it's from people only want a very shallow, 20 to 1 "blob" combat game where they can sit around afterwards and stroke each others' epeens to some glorious new state of ecstasy.

Sadly, they are missing the other 95% of the game.

It's either "boring" to them, or simply beyond them (re: the "Learning Cliff" myth ).

The result as seen every day, however, is the same.

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Jim Roebuck
State War Academy
Caldari State
#94 - 2013-10-21 03:06:19 UTC
If you really see EVE as anything else, then you deserve to lose your stuff.

When Bon Scott died and he appeared before St. Peter at the gates of Heaven, St. Peter looked at his record and told him he couldn't get in. Just then, God screams at Peter, "Let him in, Karen Carpenter is driving me nuts. I want to hear some music with balls. We'll haggle over the paperwork later." At least I hope that's what happened.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#95 - 2013-10-21 03:19:48 UTC
Blobbers !

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Joan Greywind
The Lazy Crabs
#96 - 2013-10-21 03:37:03 UTC
It is a sandbox, you can do whatever you want, you don't like pew, fine no one is forcing you to do it.

Just remember all the ships have one purpose, the destruction of other ships in the game. Even the indies are there so they can move stuff to build more stuff that has one purpose, to shoot other stuff.

It is like saying why do heroes in Dota are so adamant about killing each other, can't we just farm creeps, build the perfect items and live happily ever after. This is not farmville.

The end game is PVP, the difference in EVE no one is forcing you to do it, just go rat all day if that what floats your boat, but don't come to the forums complaining why killing other ships is the nature of the game.

Btw although I don't agree with you, the write up was good and better than the usual tears we get about pvp in this game, +1 for a well stated opinion.
Kialopreyst
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2013-10-21 04:32:15 UTC
Because the game revolves around pvp.
Jarod Garamonde
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2013-10-21 05:37:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarod Garamonde
Enduros wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Enduros wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
For OP:
1. Aion is that way ------>
2. I can haz your stuff?
3. Why we violence your boat? Because you were there, and we needed to express ourselves.
4. PvP is fun
5. HTFU

1. No spaceships in it
2. You probably can't even fly most of my stuff
3. ?
4. Compared to what? Other things in eve or other games? Because this is kind of the point of the thread.
5. My shrink strongly advises me against taking any more space-viagra then I already do.


1. No, but does have "PvP by mutual consent, only" according to my last girlfriend.
2. Unless you're packing carriers and Titans, or Indy ships, I can fly almost everything you can.
3. It meant exactly what it said.
4. Compared to nothing. That wasn't a comparative statement. It was an opinion-based statement with no caveats.
5. That doesn't mean you should be as soft as the inside of a space twinkie, though.

(if you can't see my humor, I feel bad for you)


I have never said I don't like PvP. What I said was there is so much more to it then just the F1 act of PvP, without which you couldn't even have the PvP you speak of. And my point was that PvP is held in too high regard while everything else seems to draw ridicule as if it's the best measuring stick. Best example would be logi pilots. When you fly logi you do far more work yet it goes completely undocumented.


Everything in EVE is PvP. Even the forums are PvP.
Market? Totes PvP.
Mining? Still PvP (literally, when New Order rolls through).
Contracts? PvP, as well.
Complexing? Oh, SO totally PvP.

In my corp, Logi is rewarded. It takes a decently brass pair of stones to follow a bunch of HACs and AFs into hostile lowsec, knowing for sure you aren't getting on a killmail, but are still most likely going to die, in a serious pirate corp. I'm not as brave as some of my corpmates, so I fly the HACs.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#99 - 2013-10-21 05:49:03 UTC
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Enduros wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Enduros wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
For OP:
1. Aion is that way ------>
2. I can haz your stuff?
3. Why we violence your boat? Because you were there, and we needed to express ourselves.
4. PvP is fun
5. HTFU

1. No spaceships in it
2. You probably can't even fly most of my stuff
3. ?
4. Compared to what? Other things in eve or other games? Because this is kind of the point of the thread.
5. My shrink strongly advises me against taking any more space-viagra then I already do.


1. No, but does have "PvP by mutual consent, only" according to my last girlfriend.
2. Unless you're packing carriers and Titans, or Indy ships, I can fly almost everything you can.
3. It meant exactly what it said.
4. Compared to nothing. That wasn't a comparative statement. It was an opinion-based statement with no caveats.
5. That doesn't mean you should be as soft as the inside of a space twinkie, though.

(if you can't see my humor, I feel bad for you)


I have never said I don't like PvP. What I said was there is so much more to it then just the F1 act of PvP, without which you couldn't even have the PvP you speak of. And my point was that PvP is held in too high regard while everything else seems to draw ridicule as if it's the best measuring stick. Best example would be logi pilots. When you fly logi you do far more work yet it goes completely undocumented.


Everything in EVE is PvP. Even the forums are PvP.
Market? Totes PvP.
Mining? Still PvP (literally, when New Order rolls through).
Contracts? PvP, as well.
Complexing? Oh, SO totally PvP.

In my corp, Logi is rewarded. It takes a decently brass pair of stones to follow a bunch of HACs and AFs into hostile lowsec, knowing for sure you aren't getting on a killmail, but are still most likely going to die, in a serious pirate corp. I'm not as brave as some of my corpmates, so I fly the HACs.

Hm. Used to be like that (barring idiots who would fit guns and get in trouble and not be reimbursed). We recommended assigning drones to get on killmails.

Now we have participation links, which even record the shiptype, I think. Great stuff.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Jarod Garamonde
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2013-10-21 06:08:13 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

Hm. Used to be like that (barring idiots who would fit guns and get in trouble and not be reimbursed). We recommended assigning drones to get on killmails.

Now we have participation links, which even record the shiptype, I think. Great stuff.



Damage drones take away from Logi ability. Why not fit a TP if the Logi pilots want on km's that badly? That would actually make sense for the role. Adding to the fleet's DPS, without detracting from ability to rep friendlies.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]