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Countering T3s

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Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#21 - 2013-10-18 18:20:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
7enn wrote:
No no, you're all good! I appreciate your help in making my point. You've been great. I've reviewed your personal kb on battleclinic and now I must amend my initial statement. There are actually 3 things more risk averse than a T3 on a HS wh. (to be fare you do have 2 solo kills - an iteron and a hurricane you clipped on the edge of a fleet fight). Thanks for correcting my oversight.

COME AT ME BRO


I won't lie I don't have the most prolific combat record neither do I do much solo PVP, but I also have 4 other characters I pvp with also - 3 of which have atleast as many kills each as Rroff (one has 3 times as many).

EDIT: Tell a lie only 2 have as many or more kills as Rroff was accidentally counting Rroff twice.

EDIT2: Besides if you think I'm risk averse your having a laugh - I was solo roaming lowsec in shield brutix before I barely had the skills to fly them and put more ISK on the line in any fight I've been in than is average for many PVPers in their 20m disposable cruisers.
Icarus Able
Refuse.Resist
#22 - 2013-10-18 18:22:41 UTC
Endo Riftbreaker wrote:
If I went the tier 3 route, I suppose I'd be best off with a Tornado right? Talos doesn't seem like it has the tank to out-last a T3 given that it wants to brawl close range.

Talos is a good kiter if you can use Null.
7enn
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-10-18 18:29:27 UTC  |  Edited by: 7enn
Rrrrrrrrrofffffffff my main man. You haven't lost a ship since March of last year. You ARE the poster child of risk aversion. I would wager that THE last thing the space fairies flying the over tanked, over logi, over ecm T3 fleets really want is YOU pleading the 'it's not always a risk averse fleet' case for them. You're just making your fairy brosefs look even worse. Let it go man, before they get all mad at you.

COME AT ME BRO
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#24 - 2013-10-18 18:33:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
7enn wrote:
Rrrrrrrrrofffffffff my main man. You haven't lost a ship since March of last year. You ARE the poster child of risk aversion. I would wager that last thing the space fairies flying the over tanked, over logi, over ecm T3 fleets really want is YOU pleading the 'it's not always a risk averse fleet' case for them. You're just making your fairy brosefs look even worse. Let it go man, before they get all mad at you.

COME AT ME BRO


Yeah everyone needs to take a bit of a step back from the game now and again. But see my edit above (and check some of my losses).

EDIT: You might want to look a bit harder:

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=18684431

(PS I lost 2 ships in this fight but won't tell you which other chars a minre - not that hard to work out though).


EDIT2: To be fair seems neither eve-kill or battleclinic have very accurate records of Rroff - tons of missing kills/losses from late 2009/early 2010 as well as more recent.
Ilaister
Binary Aesthetics
#25 - 2013-10-18 19:17:25 UTC
So we judge PvPers on their losses > lack of risk aversion now too?

When did this pleasing change in attitudes take place?
7enn
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-10-19 00:19:11 UTC
I try to judge them on all the available data. Keeping in mind I redirected this post to also include other risk averse practices (T3 fleets that bring... you know... too much) I was judging Rroffles only on his aversion to risk. I wasn't really looking at any other qualities. I would bet he's a splendid father and provider (or maybe that creepy uncle... you know)

Looking at his kb I saw no real solo activity, most fleets were around a dozen or 30 (about 50/50 on that). The few (yes I didn't check them all) engagements I spot checked had the numbers well in his crew's favor. Very few losses (for the record, if a pilot has around 80 efficiency and over 500 small gang kills he's just about risk right in my eyes). I like losses. Show's you're not afraid to go for it. (it's hard to believe a guy talking about going balls deep if he hasn't lost a ship in a year and a half - makes me question his version of deep... if you know what I mean)

hmmm where was I??

Oh yeah, so kb not exactly blinking 'tough guy' and yet claiming that the T3 fleet obliged to bring logi and jams (yeah AND jams - really??) is not risk averse when going balls deep in someones wh.

I opened his notes tab and typed..... you guessed it

Space Fairy

I'm sure he's cool and all, just not the authority on risk averse and balls deep.

That and I'm kind of having fun acting like a tool on the forums (no offense intended for the ones of you that were thinking I'm cool because I act like a #$$## to some guy I truly don't know).


COME AT ME BRO
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-10-19 00:51:20 UTC
I have 3 or 4 kills on hisec holes (not of T3s). I have no idea why. My plan is always "If I'm loosing, I'll jump to hisec." Not sure what their plan was.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."
7enn
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-10-19 01:01:56 UTC
The OP was asking about T3 on a HS (specifically the proteus and legion). They have a massive tank for their sig radius, so they are pretty tough to kill on a HS if they have a clue what they are doing. They aren't as safe as if they were in a fleet of 10 prot, 4 guardians and 5 ecm tengus, but not everyone can afford to fly around with that kind of security. If I could fly around in a fleet like that I would definitely cry and whine about not being able to get good fight though (that probably goes without saying if you spend any amount of time on these boards).

Has anyone seen my red jacket?


COME AT ME BRO
Barrak
The Painted Ones
#29 - 2013-10-19 08:59:00 UTC
A good bump and tripple webs are the order of the day..... though, then you need the deeps.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#30 - 2013-10-19 09:25:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
7enn wrote:
I try to judge them on all the available data. Keeping in mind I redirected this post to also include other risk averse practices (T3 fleets that bring... you know... too much) I was judging Rroffles only on his aversion to risk. I wasn't really looking at any other qualities. I would bet he's a splendid father and provider (or maybe that creepy uncle... you know)

Looking at his kb I saw no real solo activity, most fleets were around a dozen or 30 (about 50/50 on that). The few (yes I didn't check them all) engagements I spot checked had the numbers well in his crew's favor. Very few losses (for the record, if a pilot has around 80 efficiency and over 500 small gang kills he's just about risk right in my eyes). I like losses. Show's you're not afraid to go for it. (it's hard to believe a guy talking about going balls deep if he hasn't lost a ship in a year and a half - makes me question his version of deep... if you know what I mean)

hmmm where was I??

Oh yeah, so kb not exactly blinking 'tough guy' and yet claiming that the T3 fleet obliged to bring logi and jams (yeah AND jams - really??) is not risk averse when going balls deep in someones wh.

I opened his notes tab and typed..... you guessed it

Space Fairy

I'm sure he's cool and all, just not the authority on risk averse and balls deep.

That and I'm kind of having fun acting like a tool on the forums (no offense intended for the ones of you that were thinking I'm cool because I act like a #$$## to some guy I truly don't know).


COME AT ME BRO



Except as I pointed out I have losses more recent than a year and a half ago and if you actually checked in a bit more detail you'd see that as many fights are heavily out numbered as are straight ganks.

Not to mention not seemingly able to tell the difference between dropping a t3 gang in with the odds heavily in your favor for ganks and using them in their natural environment where the risk is appropriate i.e. someones C5/6 home where they can drop dozens of capitals and an equal or larger t3 gang of their own.

EDIT: As an aside I've not been that active over the last year and mostly flown a guardian on rroff when I have pvp'd with that char.
7enn
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-10-19 10:56:59 UTC
Hey man. I just put Space Fairy in the note tab on your character sheet. I'm the only one that can see it. It really really isn't that big of a deal. I mean.... this is just a forum throw away alt, so no one even really knows who put Space Fairy on your sheet and on top of that, I'm the only one that can see it. If you put this whole incident in the rear view mirror everyone else will just forget about it. It's not like I'm putting the prom pictures of you and your cousin on facebook or anything. You will get through this.

What you need to take away from this is that IF you're flying around in a 30 man T3 fleet (with too much logi and too much ecm) or on a HS wh in a T3 THEN you may want to evaluate if you're doing it right. IF you're in the T3 monster fleet AND you just can't get your arms around WHY you can't get fights THEN I'm not sure anyone can help you. IF you complain about not getting good fights in said fleet AND you keep flying it.... I can't help you there either.

Sometimes I really hate this game when it refuses to do what I want it to. I mean... how dare eve not bend around and conform to my desires.... whiskey tango foxtrot????

COME AT ME BRO
bubble trout
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2013-10-19 13:14:03 UTC
This thread is going places. I like it.

For OP, as others have said, best bet is to crash the HS out from under them(battleships+ bubble from other side), or alpha them. It is *really* hard to alpha a T3 though, unless it is mwd on and active tank fit or something.

Even off wormholes there is no real hard counter to T3, especially considering the number of way they can be fit. "Dread blapping" I guess, but something tells me if you had the means to do that you wouldn't be on these forums making this post. Blob them, e-war blob them, or just have a better T3 brawler than them is the standard way to kill them.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#33 - 2013-10-19 13:36:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Honestly, the average sensor strength of a strategic cruiser is like 15. Means that a falcon (jamstrength 14.5 before infolinks) with 2 ladar, 2 mag and 2 radarjams has apretty gud chance of permajamming 2 scramprots, 2 weblokis and 2 (fastlock/neut)legions.

T3 fleets fall apart against a neut/droneteam (Nexor, neutishtar, neutdomi, geddon) with a falcon or two.


Rroff wrote:


EDIT: As an aside I've not been that active over the last year and mostly flown a guardian on rroff when I have pvp'd with that char.


I know that feeling, when 80 of your 100 kills a month are those where you assigned a couple EC-300s to someone to get on all the kms in your guardian <.<
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#34 - 2013-10-19 13:40:41 UTC
7enn wrote:
Hey man. I just put Space Fairy in the note tab on your character sheet. I'm the only one that can see it. It really really isn't that big of a deal. I mean.... this is just a forum throw away alt, so no one even really knows who put Space Fairy on your sheet and on top of that, I'm the only one that can see it. If you put this whole incident in the rear view mirror everyone else will just forget about it. It's not like I'm putting the prom pictures of you and your cousin on facebook or anything. You will get through this.


Aaaw cute you think I'm mad - been around the internet too long to get riled up by a faceless troll - does amuse me to get them to engage in a discussion though.


7enn wrote:

What you need to take away from this is that IF you're flying around in a 30 man T3 fleet (with too much logi and too much ecm) or on a HS wh in a T3 THEN you may want to evaluate if you're doing it right. IF you're in the T3 monster fleet AND you just can't get your arms around WHY you can't get fights THEN I'm not sure anyone can help you. IF you complain about not getting good fights in said fleet AND you keep flying it.... I can't help you there either.

Sometimes I really hate this game when it refuses to do what I want it to. I mean... how dare eve not bend around and conform to my desires.... whiskey tango foxtrot????

COME AT ME BRO



While I'd give you that dropping 6+ logi, 3+ ecm tengus, 10+ dps t3s, etc. on a 5-6 man BC wormhole camp could be regarded as lame and risk averse (though to some degree thats just showing inexperience with WH PVP) its a whole different story when you use that setup to engage someone who has just dropped 4-5 dreads, webbing vindis, couple of triage carriers, etc. on you. You can't pigeon hole a setup like that on its own without looking at the bigger picture.

Can't say we've ever had much problem getting fights, you can see for yourself we aren't given to using ecm yada yada.
7enn
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-10-20 17:03:14 UTC  |  Edited by: 7enn
Hang on to the dream Rroff, if you wish for it hard enough it will be true. Remember, I've looked at your kb and the fight your are describing isn't on it. If you want to get any cred in this discussion you'll need to use things like reality and your experiences. Try to move away from hypothetical situations. The fights you describe do exist but they are rare when compared to the use or overuse of the uber fleets. They are also rare when compared to the amount of whining done by pilots who live in the uber fleets. Sure there is a place for them - It's just not all day every day.

My ideal would be 'Enyo only Thursdays' every thursday in wh space. I can't even begin to fathom the awesome and the fun that would generate. It's just not practical, so though I want it and wish for it, I would never try to defend the idea on these boards.

Overall I think you're taking this a bit too personally (going w/ the worn out you are cute minimization - I just say sheesh to that). Maybe I did start the personal stuff by discussing your characters kb, but I did stay with facts stated the justifications for my opinion.

I could care less what folks fly. I could care less what folks do. I've said I think certain tactics and fleets denote risk aversion. You've picked up the crusade banner to defend the uber prot fleet. I've made my own fun in eve for quite a few years. TBH I enjoy when folks 'break' the game - be it risk averse fleets, reckless/stupid ruination of the geddon by Fozzy, warp to zero, speed nerf, moon goo, T2. It's what makes the game fun. Every change good or bad makes those that can think, adapt and overcome stronger and the sheeples that copy their fits/fleets/tactics from others weaker.

We need all the groups. Hunters, sheepsies, and of course the builders that put back what others destroy. The good thing about the risk averse stuff is that those folks go away over time. Risk averse is boring, so if you're doing it - you'll get bored. Sure there's a certain small group that thrive on it, but the majority end up seeing it for what it is and move on.

COME AT ME BRO
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#36 - 2013-10-20 17:45:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Until you actually bother to look at a complete record of my killboard you might as well quit posting as none of it makes any real sense and mostly seems based on poorly made assumptions. i.e. dunno how you've come to the conclusion I'm defending uber prot fleets - my point was that you can't pigeon hole fleets soley based on ship composition not defending a specific setup.


EDIT: Though to be fair as I mentioned before battleclinic (which seems to be your go to) has a very incomplete record of my killboard - which you can see with a simple comparison with eve-kill - and both are missing a large chunk of my kills and losses from 2010.
7enn
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-10-20 18:00:53 UTC
I'm not taking space fairy out of your notes. It's just not going to happen. I don't care about your kb anymore (I've moved on) or what fleets you're flying in. Your character is space fairy to me (think dead).

conclusions:

1. proteus/legion on a HS wh - RISK AVERSE
2. uber T3 fleets - RISK AVERSE
2.14159. neutral alt posting - fun..... err..... RISK AVERSE
3. RISK AVERSE - space fairy
4. RISK AVERSE - boring and a self healing wound
5. geddons - Fozzy ruined a classic eve pvp vehicle
6. ENYO ONLY THURSDAYS IN WH SPACE - just a little too awesome to comprehend

Anything else does not pertain to the spirit of this thread.

COME AT ME BRO
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#38 - 2013-10-20 18:03:55 UTC
7enn wrote:
I'm not taking space fairy out of your notes. It's just not going to happen. I don't care about your kb anymore (I've moved on) or what fleets you're flying in. Your character is space fairy to me (think dead).

conclusions:

1. proteus/legion on a HS wh - RISK AVERSE
2. uber T3 fleets - RISK AVERSE
2.14159. neutral alt posting - fun..... err..... RISK AVERSE
3. RISK AVERSE - space fairy
4. RISK AVERSE - boring and a self healing wound
5. geddons - Fozzy ruined a classic eve pvp vehicle
6. ENYO ONLY THURSDAYS IN WH SPACE - just a little too awesome to comprehend

Anything else does not pertain to the spirit of this thread.

COME AT ME BRO


Ah the typical talk to the hand post wondered how long til that was coming.
7enn
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-10-20 18:49:44 UTC
U R not getting this - at all. I think I just pee pee in my pants a little.

KEEP COMING
Ahost Gceo
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2013-10-20 19:53:04 UTC
7enn wrote:
U R not getting this - at all. I think I just pee pee in my pants a little.

KEEP COMING


The moment you said you were looking his kb up on Battleclinic all of your validity magically disappeared, even though arguably an obvious troll such as yourself wouldn't have any to begin with.

On topic:

The main weakness of T3 ships is the fact they are locked into certain roles simply because if the fit deviates too much the ship absolutely sucks at the intended role and is a flying liability. Even then, they don't perform these roles admirably well, such as an Armageddon or Bhaalgorn being far superior to a neut Legion.

Countering should come down to having more role-specific ships such as Armageddon/ Bhaalgorn, Guardians, etc. I'd even go out on a limb and suggest testing a brick tanked Arazu or Lachesis with as many sensor damps as possible to kill the lock range on their logi. Neut out Protei, lock down Guardians, and so on. There is a way to counter anything, you just have to find it.

CCP ignore me please, I make too much sense.
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