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Getting newbies out of their comfort zone

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Solstice Project's Alt
Doomheim
#121 - 2013-10-20 10:48:16 UTC
The conclusion of this thread is that most of you people simply are ...

... unable to determine if a problem exists.
... unable to analyse said perceived problem properly.
... unable to filter out your own egos while analysing said perceived problem.
... dangerously disconnected from reality and how human beings work.

Not that this helps anything. You people are just too full of yourself
and we all can thank CCP that you have no say in the matter whatsoever.

Buy Solstice Project for PLEX4GOOD ! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=301266 (this alt-character will get deleted once the sale is done, on 6th of december)
Amber Kurvora
#122 - 2013-10-20 10:48:36 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Charles Panzram wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Renegade Heart wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
The ability to wardec a single player on a NPC corp would solve this problem.


You can't fight a war against a player that's gonna quit Eve because of your wardec. How does your solution solve this problem?


Horseshit, they are just themepark carebears that don't enjoy the sandbox mmo-rpg's. Theirs a easy solution, don't like the genre, stick with themepark mmo-rpg's.


You do realize that sandbox style game means that everyone can play the game THEY want with the tools given to them and that includes carebearing in npc corps. Hence contradicting your own argument were you want to impose rules for a play style you want on others.

It always boils down to the same thing of people imposing some "bright" ideas on others.
How about you take your fascistic attitude and stick it where the sun never shines.

You are contradicting yourself in your argumentation. If the carebear is only looking for a theme park, than what are you? You are just doing the same looking for your own theme park of easy ganks and risk free gameplay like a 12 year old playground bully that molests the 5-6 year old, thats the truth and nothing else. Contrary to the intention of a SANDBOX.

As it stands ganking has never been easier, so what's stopping you from ganking those "carebears"?
Is it effort? Because you are too lazy,inept,not smart enough to figure out how to gank someone?

Maybe you should look for something else to find joy other than to destroy other peoples pixels.
Maybe you should also take a dictionary and look up the meaning of sandbox since you clearly seem unable to grasp its meaning.



No, that's not what sandbox mmo-rpg's are about. You can try to play the way you want, but you are not entitled to it like in kindergarten themepark mmo-rpg's.

The sandbox is about player interaction, interaction that affects how other players play and interact with both the game and other players. What you do not get to do in the sandbox is decide who you will not interact with. You can choose to interact with player A, even if player A would rather not interact with you. They have little say in the matter. They can make an effort to avoid you, but that in itself is an act of interaction.You have forced them to recognize you, take heed of you. This is what makes the butterfly effect possible in EvE Online.

To sum it up, EvE Online it's the last of it's kind, an old school sandbox mmo-rpg game, that's the secret of it's longevity and that's why EvE Online will still be played 10 years from now.



You're allowed to do what ever the hell you want, I'm afraid to say. You really can't force people to interact if they don't want to. Some people might genuinely not have the inclination or personality to deal with people on a regular basis, especially when 99% of them are out to kill you or screw you over. Some people might actually dig the character building and ship flying without the hassle of the socialising. You can't tar everyone with the same brush, otherwise you might as well view Eve online as no different to the processes that make education hellish, or the workplace such a depressing place (at times) . Stop trying to force people into the cookie cutter cut out, and let them come to enjoy the game in it's own way.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#123 - 2013-10-20 10:49:38 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Newbies out of their comfort zone ????

It's been 4 years, but in the first 6 months of newbie play, I lost more ships than I've lost total in the 3 1/2 years since.

What comfort zone are we talking about exactly ???



This guy gets it

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
TharOkha
0asis Group
#124 - 2013-10-20 10:50:36 UTC  |  Edited by: TharOkha
Vaju Enki wrote:
Renegade Heart wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
The ability to wardec a single player on a NPC corp would solve this problem.


You can't fight a war against a player that's gonna quit Eve because of your wardec. How does your solution solve this problem?


Horseshit, they are just themepark carebears that don't enjoy the sandbox mmo-rpg's. Theirs a easy solution, don't like the genre, stick with themepark mmo-rpg's.


Well..... let just say that I'm glad that you are not a part of CCP management.

CODE. Venture hunt contest in a nutshell
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#125 - 2013-10-20 10:53:30 UTC
TharOkha wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Renegade Heart wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
The ability to wardec a single player on a NPC corp would solve this problem.


You can't fight a war against a player that's gonna quit Eve because of your wardec. How does your solution solve this problem?


Horseshit, they are just themepark carebears that don't enjoy the sandbox mmo-rpg's. Theirs a easy solution, don't like the genre, stick with themepark mmo-rpg's.


Well..... let just say that I'm glad that you are not a part of CCP management.



And we are all thrilled you are not the Senior Developer for CCP.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Amber Kurvora
#126 - 2013-10-20 11:05:39 UTC
Nice to see the debate fall into the realms of "Your mumma...", or the classic "No, you are!" playground realms. For all the computing power of the human mind, online threads can sometime get depressingly predictable. I'm looking forward to the day when an argument ends with "...and I appreciate your view points, and though they differ from my own, they still raise valid points.". I mean we could use these arguments to potentially highlight ideas, but this is Eve we're talking about, and thus the e-penis (attached to the e-ego) is mightier than the ability to rationalise and be civil to one another.

Solstice Project's Alt
Doomheim
#127 - 2013-10-20 11:11:40 UTC
Amber Kurvora wrote:
Nice to see the debate fall into the realms of "Your mumma...", or the classic "No, you are!" playground realms. For all the computing power of the human mind, online threads can sometime get depressingly predictable. I'm looking forward to the day when an argument ends with "...and I appreciate your view points, and though they differ from my own, they still raise valid points.". I mean we could use these arguments to potentially highlight ideas, but this is Eve we're talking about, and thus the e-***** (attached to the e-ego) is mightier than the ability to rationalise and be civil to one another.
Never going to happen, but that's not related to EvE per se.

It's the people who are the issue and not the game.

Buy Solstice Project for PLEX4GOOD ! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=301266 (this alt-character will get deleted once the sale is done, on 6th of december)
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#128 - 2013-10-20 11:16:16 UTC
Amber Kurvora wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Hotel New Eden announcement:

"With regards to our clients who stay at the kids' pool rather than go swim at our gorgeous and world-unique sharks pool, we have decided to interrupt the ongoing operations to incentivate the use of the later over the former.

Thus, no more piranhas will be added to the kid's pool, we will forbid to throw electrical appliances into the water and our personnel will be advised to not use the kid's pool as a toilet.

Also we want to deny the rumors about adding a springboard to the kids' pool so our clients enjoy their stay better. The experiments to wire springboards with claymore mines have failed so far, but we will keep trying.

~The Management"




This has to be one the funniest analogies I've seen in a long, long time. Lol

Personally I think High Sec types should be left alone. If they want to join a corp, then it's all good. If they want to solo Eve for a while, then it's Ok too. Forcing people to do one thing or another is exactly what Eve shouldn't be about. Let people live and die by their own values and not the one's you want to foist upon them. Otherwise you might as well be doing an office job in an environment which made the school playground like relatively benign.

Oh, and if you still insist that people play the game how you want it? Nullsec is calling you... Build your own null corp up, take some sovereignty, and then you can tell people how high they have to jump.


Humour aside, the question is that there is a good reason why CCP should want that new players go into the multiplayer/PvP/nullsec part of the game: that's how they get and retain paying customers. People is what makes people stay subscribed to EVE, and the activities that actively require a lot of people (PvP, nullsec) are key.

So in a way, "misfit" players are both a failure to get long lasting customers and a potential issue as they may require development resources which otherwise CCP would rather like to spend with the "good" customers.

To CCP, fixing a broken mission instead of having that developer help with POSes or Sov or the new Hallelujah Plan, it's a waste of resources...

...but only because CCP is doing nothing to have "misfit" players as long term customers. They are continuously saying "this is our mark, you must be this tall to play EVE", and now they're running out of the taller potential players.

Their aproach with the Hallelujah Plan for the next three years is "be this tall and you will get New Space and a hug from CCP ~weloveyou~ Seagull", but that doesn't adresses the issue that they are running out of potential players. Ultima Online depleted its pool of customers in 5 years, EVE has taken 10, but all in all, there is only so much kids "this tall".

And both CCP and "fittest" players are mindlocked in rewarding the fittest and don't be bothered with the misfits, despite all the evidence that it's the misfits who PAY the game and EVE wouldn't be sustainable without them.

They focus in hoarding cattle to the lake rather than build troughs where cattle is. They go as far as to employ developers to give gameplay lessons to new players, and probably the irony of asking the car engineeer who designed the door tell the customers how to open it and enter the car is lost to them.

EVE is a funny thing, but the fun is running out. No matter how hard they try, they're mindlocked in the "must be this tall" mentality. Latest case in point: the just announced exploration "Ghost sites" which may drop BPC to build player-made implants. Do we need to ask what are the chances of such a drop in hisec Ghost sites? "You must be this tall to play", effectively. Yet they'll take your money no matter else... Roll

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#129 - 2013-10-20 11:16:54 UTC
Amber Kurvora wrote:
Nice to see the debate fall into the realms of "Your mumma...", or the classic "No, you are!" playground realms. For all the computing power of the human mind, online threads can sometime get depressingly predictable. I'm looking forward to the day when an argument ends with "...and I appreciate your view points, and though they differ from my own, they still raise valid points.". I mean we could use these arguments to potentially highlight ideas, but this is Eve we're talking about, and thus the e-***** (attached to the e-ego) is mightier than the ability to rationalise and be civil to one another.




The biggest problem with Democracy is that it essentially says that one's wrongful, uneducated opinion is just as valid and equal to another's intelligent informed opinion.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Solstice Project's Alt
Doomheim
#130 - 2013-10-20 11:18:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project's Alt
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
The biggest problem with Democracy is that it essentially says that one's wrongful, uneducated opinion is just as valid and equal to another's intelligent informed opinion.
Not empty quoting.

In before nazi related comments.

edit: In before Godwin's law.

Buy Solstice Project for PLEX4GOOD ! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=301266 (this alt-character will get deleted once the sale is done, on 6th of december)
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#131 - 2013-10-20 11:18:41 UTC
Solstice Project's Alt wrote:
Amber Kurvora wrote:
Nice to see the debate fall into the realms of "Your mumma...", or the classic "No, you are!" playground realms. For all the computing power of the human mind, online threads can sometime get depressingly predictable. I'm looking forward to the day when an argument ends with "...and I appreciate your view points, and though they differ from my own, they still raise valid points.". I mean we could use these arguments to potentially highlight ideas, but this is Eve we're talking about, and thus the e-***** (attached to the e-ego) is mightier than the ability to rationalise and be civil to one another.
Never going to happen, but that's not related to EvE per se.

It's the people who are the issue and not the game.


Indeed, no place is designed to be a ghetto. It's the people who make it into one.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Dyvim Slorm
Coven of the Morrigan
#132 - 2013-10-20 11:19:27 UTC
My personal view is that the tax rate for NPC's corps is far too low for the protection they get against wardecs.

Beyond that, it down to each individual to play Eve however they choose and not be bullied into a specific style of play.
Solstice Project's Alt
Doomheim
#133 - 2013-10-20 11:33:49 UTC
Dyvim Slorm wrote:
My personal view is that the tax rate for NPC's corps is far too low for the protection they get against wardecs.

Beyond that, it down to each individual to play Eve however they choose and not be bullied into a specific style of play.
Which does not apply to noobs,
because they don't know the game enough to make a valid choice about how to play it.

You're ignoring that many noobs are indeed bullied into how to play the game,
by those who sit in starter corps telling them what to do,
which is very often mining or running missions. Solo.

Buy Solstice Project for PLEX4GOOD ! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=301266 (this alt-character will get deleted once the sale is done, on 6th of december)
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#134 - 2013-10-20 11:34:45 UTC
Dyvim Slorm wrote:
My personal view is that the tax rate for NPC's corps is far too low for the protection they get against wardecs.



How can you determine exactly what is 'too much' or 'too low' ??

They pay the highest taxes in the game in order to have that very protection.

Nerf mission income enough and any casual new subscribers will just leave, so no thanks for another bad idea.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#135 - 2013-10-20 11:36:17 UTC
Quote:
And both CCP and "fittest" players are mindlocked in rewarding the fittest and don't be bothered with the misfits, despite all the evidence that it's the misfits who PAY the game and EVE wouldn't be sustainable without them.


Please present this evidence. Otherwise it's just more carebear wishful thinking that you are somehow a moral majority. I frequently see this argument used to justify the kind of "but teh carebears will quit!" nonsense you are spouting above, as well. They tend to go hand in hand for some reason.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#136 - 2013-10-20 11:42:56 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
The ability to wardec a single player on a NPC corp would solve this problem.


That would be the beginning of the end for EVE


Themepark carebears propaganda, the reality is this, the more they cry, the more EvE Online grows.



Someone is both full of themselves, and nonsense. U SO FU NNY

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Amber Kurvora
#137 - 2013-10-20 11:47:47 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


EVE is a funny thing, but the fun is running out. No matter how hard they try, they're mindlocked in the "must be this tall" mentality. Latest case in point: the just announced exploration "Ghost sites" which may drop BPC to build player-made implants. Do we need to ask what are the chances of such a drop in hisec Ghost sites? "You must be this tall to play", effectively. Yet they'll take your money no matter else... Roll



I've actually gotten hardcore into exploration as my main source of income. It can be hit or miss, but the fact is that the thrill is in potential of what you might find. Having said that, exploration is broken in it's reward scheme. Relic sites in HS are more or less pointless, due to the extremely low ISK drops, and are barely worth it in Low. Data sites provide a much more consistent income in both areas. Hitting Null on the other hand almost completely reverses this trend, with Relic sites being consistently more profitable.

They need to streamline the sites so they're worth doing in all sectors, in comparison to ratting and mission running. Maybe no constantly, but enough that it's worth sticking with as a career in either part of space. As for Ghost sites? Hmmm...it'd be interesting to see what implants they dropped, but then I'm skilled out for Null exploration, and can look forward to making the most out of them.

To be honest, if CCP wanted to retain a player base and get new people involved, they'd cut out the side projects and focus on revamping Eve - finishing off unfinished parts, and revamping High sec to make it more enticing for newbies. As much as people will hate to read this, WoW is successful because it provides in depth PvE and PvP. You need the PvE side of things to get people in through the door, and let them make their own way over to PvP. They need more epic arc style missions, with oodles of flavouring, npcs to interact with...etc. All in the aim that each person in the door will take the safety rails off when they want to. Allowing others to do that, will just lead to the perception that Eve is entirely populated by dicks out to get you.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2013-10-20 11:53:48 UTC
Amber Kurvora wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


EVE is a funny thing, but the fun is running out. No matter how hard they try, they're mindlocked in the "must be this tall" mentality. Latest case in point: the just announced exploration "Ghost sites" which may drop BPC to build player-made implants. Do we need to ask what are the chances of such a drop in hisec Ghost sites? "You must be this tall to play", effectively. Yet they'll take your money no matter else... Roll



I've actually gotten hardcore into exploration as my main source of income. It can be hit or miss, but the fact is that the thrill is in potential of what you might find. Having said that, exploration is broken in it's reward scheme. Relic sites in HS are more or less pointless, due to the extremely low ISK drops, and are barely worth it in Low. Data sites provide a much more consistent income in both areas. Hitting Null on the other hand almost completely reverses this trend, with Relic sites being consistently more profitable.

They need to streamline the sites so they're worth doing in all sectors, in comparison to ratting and mission running. Maybe no constantly, but enough that it's worth sticking with as a career in either part of space. As for Ghost sites? Hmmm...it'd be interesting to see what implants they dropped, but then I'm skilled out for Null exploration, and can look forward to making the most out of them.

To be honest, if CCP wanted to retain a player base and get new people involved, they'd cut out the side projects and focus on revamping Eve - finishing off unfinished parts, and revamping High sec to make it more enticing for newbies. As much as people will hate to read this, WoW is successful because it provides in depth PvE and PvP. You need the PvE side of things to get people in through the door, and let them make their own way over to PvP. They need more epic arc style missions, with oodles of flavouring, npcs to interact with...etc. All in the aim that each person in the door will take the safety rails off when they want to. Allowing others to do that, will just lead to the perception that Eve is entirely populated by dicks out to get you.


Nothing about wow PvE is "deep" and the PvP was mostly comp based....always was.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2013-10-20 11:56:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Dyvim Slorm wrote:
My personal view is that the tax rate for NPC's corps is far too low for the protection they get against wardecs.



How can you determine exactly what is 'too much' or 'too low' ??

They pay the highest taxes in the game in order to have that very protection.

Nerf mission income enough and any casual new subscribers will just leave, so no thanks for another bad idea.



Hardly
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#140 - 2013-10-20 11:58:15 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Their aproach with the Hallelujah Plan for the next three years is "be this tall and you will get New Space and a hug from CCP ~weloveyou~ Seagull", but that doesn't adresses the issue that they are running out of potential players. Ultima Online depleted its pool of customers in 5 years, EVE has taken 10, but all in all, there is only so much kids "this tall".

The problem with your analogy is that "new kids" are born every year, and grow every year - so while there may (or may not) be validity to your contention that CCP wants players to be "this tall", there is always going to be a new "crop" of players coming along.

Now, whether Star Citizen or some of the other Space MMO's are going to steal some recruits away from CCP - *that* remains to be seen.

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.