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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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Jimmy Farrere
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1021 - 2013-10-19 13:30:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Jimmy Farrere
Isn't the main problem with these things that they are just way too small? Like 10 times too small? Make them bigger.

It doesn't matter that the cost is low if you can only fit 1 or 2 in a frigate.
No need to limit the amount deployed per player, if someone puts the effort into moving 100 behind enemy lines then let them run riot.
The moon holders actually get some targets to go after rather than bubble immune, un-catchable interceptors.

Seriously, increasing the size of them puts the effort back into the mechanic without pricing them out of anyone's range or bringing in artificial limits.

Also, unless we are talking about a space carrier bag, how the hell does a 20m3 unit hold 1200m3 of goo? make them 200m3 empty, all problems solved.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#1022 - 2013-10-19 13:39:40 UTC
I will summarize this entire thread with a slightly hyperbolic metaphor:

CCP: We will create a New Utopia by employing arm-banded thugs to control everyone for their own good.
The Unwashed Eve Masses: Ooooh, a New Utopia. That sounds great.
A Few of Us: What was that arm-banded thugs part again?

Forest, trees, etc.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1023 - 2013-10-19 13:56:06 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
I will summarize this entire thread with a slightly hyperbolic metaphor:

CCP: We will create a New Utopia by employing arm-banded thugs to control everyone for their own good.
The Unwashed Eve Masses: Ooooh, a New Utopia. That sounds great.
A Few of Us: What was that arm-banded thugs part again?

Forest, trees, etc.


Aren't we already controlled by arm-banded thugs? Specially in nullsec
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1024 - 2013-10-19 14:05:03 UTC
Fenrix Mernher wrote:
The amount of posturing and whining by goons in this thread shows how good an idea it is.





Did you see my post against self-immolation? A lot of goons agreed with me. So go hog wild.
Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1025 - 2013-10-19 14:05:33 UTC
Fenrix Mernher wrote:
Siobhan Teregone wrote:
Fenrix Mernher wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:
Fenrix Mernher wrote:
"ablooblooblooooo my precious afk moon money"

It'll be good for the game, vast empty passages of space should have vulnerable resource streams.


Others in this thread have already explained to your fellow low sloping foreheads why POS's aren't AFK income, but I doubt you understood it. Just like I doubt you'll understand what will happen when goons unleash this on everyone else. Anyway, as a member of the elite N3 coalition, why don't you form a fleet and conquer those valuable streams of income then?

Or is it too far below your elite self to engage in a structure bash? Reffed POS earns no income right now, no need for little sythons.

I know exactly what will happen when 'goons unleash this on everybody else'. There'll be smaller fights on mining poses which won't have been pinged for days on end and will have a spontaneity to them which will be refreshing for the average F1 masher like myself.

Reffing a pos requires a fairly heavy commitment of subcaps, I could drop/pick up/destroy a bunch of siphons with some newbros in a bunch of cruisers and hope there's a brawl with the locals as I do so. Sounds much more fun to my mind.

You are assuming that griefing will include trying to harvest the goo rather than just ejecting it and trashing it using mainly afk cloaky bombers. There won't be fights .. just griefing to make the pos fuel costs more expensive than the successful ore harvest.


My heart bleeds for you.


Pleased to see your education is proceeding at about the pace expected of you.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1026 - 2013-10-19 14:36:42 UTC
I would suggest anyone with lowsec mining pos's and corp without the ability to have someone sitting there 24/7 to keep watch for siphons, start looking for a new way to make your isk.
Yes this new mechanic has been thrown together in the hope of hurting the big players in moon mining and in the long term it may have some impact on them. In the short term many griefers are going to have tons of fun siphoning anything they can put a module on. Whether it pays or not will be irrelevant for many, as griefing is not about isk or profit, it is all about taking from others what they can when they can.

What pos siphons will do; Increase the cost of moon goo, which in turn will, increase the cost of all T2 ships and anything else relying on moon products to be built. The risks involved in pushing prices of everything up, not high enough compared to the overall impact it may have.
This has got to be good for CCP as it won't take long before you will need a plex in hand to buy your next T2 cruiser.



What happens to the siphoned goo?? Unless you have a big siphoning operation (several hundred siphons and a JF) is it worth hauling to market, 1200m of moon goo is hardly worth running the gauntlet from nul to empire to sell it and of course while your running off to market with your siphoned goo, who is watching your siphons to make sure some random traveller doesn't find them and steal what your stealing?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1027 - 2013-10-19 14:54:27 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Tzar Sinak wrote:
I do not think I am understanding this correctly.

I go to the POS to deploy some siphons. I am within 50km of the POS shields. Will the POS guns not automatically target me and fire? Would I not have to figure out a way to tank the guns, not get webbed and neuted and still be able to get away?


POS guns are crap and even small ones take several seconds to lock anything. Warp disruption batteries take a lot longer thanks to a low (36mm) scan res. On top of that there's a random delay before they start shooting. You'll have no problem flying in, dropping one and leaving, or flying in, looting one and leaving, before you're in any danger from the POS, even if it's manned.

So one possible adjustment, if siphons prove to be Too Powerful, would be to make ships dropping or harvesting siphons Sit Perfectly Still for Long Enough?
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1028 - 2013-10-19 15:02:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Zakhin Desver
If you are so worried about syphons exploiting lowsec little alliances and players, simply ban them from lowsec like it happens with bubbles and bombs

Revolutionary idea


PS Well, in fact is a good damn idea
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1029 - 2013-10-19 15:04:13 UTC
Tiye Q wrote:
Kismeteer wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
this one mod is the single greatest anti-blue donut mechanic i have ever seen.

the fact that the large pos alliances are extreamly upset that they will actually have to monitor thier isk faucet makes me very happy.


Sadly, we're also the ones that will benefit the most on the 'free isk' faucet of the increased cost of goo. And the reactions that will go up in price too. You'll just get higher t2 costs down the road. So sure, if you want to pay more for t2 stuff with no benefit, it's awesome for you.


Not sure what I find more comical. The admission of a complaint in having to now monitor a passive source of income, or the fact that the CFC/GSF member also states they'll benefit financially, and yet somehow we're all supposed to believe that the CFC/GSF is raising the complaints and flaws in mechanics for the benefit of the greater good of EVE.

Simply amazing. Whatever intellectual Kool-Aid you guys are serving to your rank and file, please make sure you patent the formula.


Is clear enough: Goons are simply griefing here in the One True Universal Perpetual Meta-Game, Players vs Developers, in which Players try to have fun and Developers try to stop them. Goons use proposed changes -- especially poorly-thought-out changes -- to grief Developers.Twisted
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1030 - 2013-10-19 15:06:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Zakhin Desver
Well, in fact, banning them from lowsec will make lowsec the training ground for pos owners. If you are in nullsec, you should be able to help yourself.
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1031 - 2013-10-19 15:13:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Falin Whalen
Kropotkin wrote:
Tiye Q wrote:
Kismeteer wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
this one mod is the single greatest anti-blue donut mechanic i have ever seen.

the fact that the large pos alliances are extreamly upset that they will actually have to monitor thier isk faucet makes me very happy.


Sadly, we're also the ones that will benefit the most on the 'free isk' faucet of the increased cost of goo. And the reactions that will go up in price too. You'll just get higher t2 costs down the road. So sure, if you want to pay more for t2 stuff with no benefit, it's awesome for you.


Not sure what I find more comical. The admission of a complaint in having to now monitor a passive source of income, or the fact that the CFC/GSF member also states they'll benefit financially, and yet somehow we're all supposed to believe that the CFC/GSF is raising the complaints and flaws in mechanics for the benefit of the greater good of EVE.

Simply amazing. Whatever intellectual Kool-Aid you guys are serving to your rank and file, please make sure you patent the formula.


Is clear enough: Goons are simply griefing here in the One True Universal Perpetual Meta-Game, Players vs Developers, in which Players try to have fun and Developers try to stop them. Goons use proposed changes -- especially poorly-thought-out changes -- to grief Developers.Twisted

We don't grief developers, we kindly and gently correct their misguided and idiotic gameplay development, with a Millwall Brick upside the head that they so helpfully gave us the paper to make it with.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1032 - 2013-10-19 15:15:18 UTC
Falin Whalen wrote:
Kropotkin wrote:
Tiye Q wrote:
Kismeteer wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
this one mod is the single greatest anti-blue donut mechanic i have ever seen.

the fact that the large pos alliances are extreamly upset that they will actually have to monitor thier isk faucet makes me very happy.


Sadly, we're also the ones that will benefit the most on the 'free isk' faucet of the increased cost of goo. And the reactions that will go up in price too. You'll just get higher t2 costs down the road. So sure, if you want to pay more for t2 stuff with no benefit, it's awesome for you.


Not sure what I find more comical. The admission of a complaint in having to now monitor a passive source of income, or the fact that the CFC/GSF member also states they'll benefit financially, and yet somehow we're all supposed to believe that the CFC/GSF is raising the complaints and flaws in mechanics for the benefit of the greater good of EVE.

Simply amazing. Whatever intellectual Kool-Aid you guys are serving to your rank and file, please make sure you patent the formula.


Is clear enough: Goons are simply griefing here in the One True Universal Perpetual Meta-Game, Players vs Developers, in which Players try to have fun and Developers try to stop them. Goons use proposed changes -- especially poorly-thought-out changes -- to grief Developers.Twisted

We don't grief developers, we kindly and gently correct their misguided and idiotic gameplay development, with a two kilo sledgehammer upside the head that they so helpfully gave us.


In other words, you are telling developers how they should manage their own game. Amazing, one day Goons will be the CEOs of CCP
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1033 - 2013-10-19 15:17:20 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
... The system itself could be neat when siphon costs aren't a rounding error, but the system is poorly balanced as it is because there's no cost to losing a siphon. ...

I wonder: Are maybe CCP trying to be crazy like fox, set low initial price to stimulate initial deployment transient, then later jack price up?

But do CCP have control of price? I think yes: siphon is T1, so All They Have To Do Is Just jack up the minerals-needed-to-build, no?
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#1034 - 2013-10-19 15:19:11 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Tippia wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Let me know what you think.
I think I still want to know what the design goal behind making the API lie is.

Because the information it would provide would render this wonderful addition to the game pointless. I guess why log into the game and play it when API program can play it for you right?...


yahh i heard API Programmes can log your applicable character in, get in the correct ship/POS gun, lock and fire on the siphon and then scoop the loot and return it to the pos (in the CHA or whatever).
Not entirely sure what programmes u guys in NCdot are using, maybe the people in Team Security needs to review your subscriptions.

Marlona Sky wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Hey guys, thanks for all the good feedback. Couple of things we're contemplating:

a) reduce waste factor from 20% to 10%

b) have a character limit on how many siphons you can deploy (i.e. have in space at the same time). This would probably be in the 5 to 10 range.

Let me know what you think.

Can you add a limit on the number of POS you can maintain too?... Roll
.


yahh cause u know... everyone has personal pos's currently dont they? ohh wait no they dont, all pos's are anchored and onlined for their entire corp (whether you're in a 1 man corp or not)
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1035 - 2013-10-19 15:23:38 UTC
Kropotkin wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Tzar Sinak wrote:
I do not think I am understanding this correctly.

I go to the POS to deploy some siphons. I am within 50km of the POS shields. Will the POS guns not automatically target me and fire? Would I not have to figure out a way to tank the guns, not get webbed and neuted and still be able to get away?


POS guns are crap and even small ones take several seconds to lock anything. Warp disruption batteries take a lot longer thanks to a low (36mm) scan res. On top of that there's a random delay before they start shooting. You'll have no problem flying in, dropping one and leaving, or flying in, looting one and leaving, before you're in any danger from the POS, even if it's manned.

So one possible adjustment, if siphons prove to be Too Powerful, would be to make ships dropping or harvesting siphons Sit Perfectly Still for Long Enough?
Pos siphons have no anchoring or onlining time. You fly to 50k of the pos, launch siphon and warp off, the siphon then automatically starts its cycle time and begins to fill. At the given time you warp back to your bookmarked siphon, empty it and warp off. As stated, even with a pos gunner present you are only at risk if you hang around too long as lock times for pos modules are just too slow to be of value. But if there is a pos gunner present there is a good chance your siphon has been destroyed so emptying it is not a problem.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1036 - 2013-10-19 15:31:23 UTC
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
ahh cause u know... everyone has personal pos's currently dont they? ohh wait no they dont, all pos's are anchored and onlined for their entire corp (whether you're in a 1 man corp or not)


Syphons are available to whoever passes by. The syphon is not really yours either.
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1037 - 2013-10-19 15:37:41 UTC
Falin Whalen wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Yeah, the cost isn't balanced at all. These things will pay for itself (including waste) in the time a regular tower owner sleeps. It is one thing if a tower owner can reasonably find it in the time that it might equate to a loss for the placer greater than the profit gained. It is quite another if you can just mass spray them cross entire portions of EVE and be virtually assured of payback.

The cost should not be balanced at a few hours and probably should be set at at least 12-18 hours. Is that really reasonable to require every tower owner to check their tower 3 times a day? This is exactly why skill queues were implemented and that was far less of a burden.

Balance the cost much higher. 10m that gets returned in just 2-5 hours is silly and not remotely balanced and is only going to mean mass spraying across EVE and end up as spam more than interaction.


nice those bitter goon tears, please go on...

Ah Harry Forever, confusing our tears of mirth with bitter tears. CCP is going to hand everyone the greatist griefing tool EVE has seen since remote doomsdays, and he thinks we are crying bitter tears. Seriously it's like we are Cassandra, blessed with the power of prophecy, yet cursed with no one believing our prophecy.


yea use it on your own POS, lol... you never leave your systems everybody knows that

all you guys do is crying, crying about your stolen moon goo, crying about the somer blink stuff, crying about your cynos, man you are a bunch of babies... boohoo...

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#1038 - 2013-10-19 15:39:36 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
Quote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:

Let me know what you think.


I think it should be better if this version of siphon will be limited at "siphoning" from moon miners only, for the start at least; leave reactions for version 2 Blink
if there are more that one moon miner on a pos it should steal alternately from each of them;

also limiting 5/player is way too low, more like 20 should be the limit if you really think we should have one
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1039 - 2013-10-19 15:41:40 UTC
Zakhin Desver wrote:
If you are so worried about syphons exploiting lowsec little alliances and players, simply ban them from lowsec like it happens with bubbles and bombs

Revolutionary idea


PS Well, in fact is a good damn idea

except ccp hs no intention of limiting them to just null sec nor frankly the player feedback either cause afaik they did not run this by the CSM either before they just up and did this. Low sec is the bastard child of ccp and they enjoy ******* with anyone who tries to operate in it.
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1040 - 2013-10-19 15:42:59 UTC
Zakhin Desver wrote:
Falin Whalen wrote:
We don't grief developers, we kindly and gently correct their misguided and idiotic gameplay development, with a two kilo sledgehammer upside the head that they so helpfully gave us.


In other words, you are telling developers how they should manage their own game. Amazing, one day Goons will be the CEOs of CCP

No, you have it wrong, We tell developers that some of the ideas that they have are hugely exploitable by those who have figured out the mechanics behind them. If they don't head our words and implement it anyway...well we have no choice but to exploit the hell out of the new feature to our advantage. Untill CCP gets wise and patches out the imbalanced, broken, mechanic to be more ballanced and less broken.

See, by being utter rat bastards, and exploiting/taking advantage of broken mechanics/features, we make the game more ballanced and less exploitable by all.

You are welcome.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka