Science & Industry

Yes, it is a T2 BPO.

Invention Cost = (2 * 185,000 + 2 * 210,000) / 50% / 10 = 158,000 per crystal

BPO Supply >= Demand, so there is no point inventing these. (Unlike say Hulks which also have BPO. Hulk demand is so high that it probably is the single largest factor determining the market price of Crystaline Carbonide next to reaction POS fuel costs).

Why do people always attack T2 BPO (I don't own any) and not the criminal price of datacores?

Personally, I'm thrilled some BPO owner is building Veldspar II crystals cheaper than I could. Just like I'm thrilled they determine the cost of some low volume T2 stuff that would have sky-high prices otherwise.

I spy an idiot.

He looks kinda like this.

Thing is that you can make more isk from invented bpc than from bpo just by buildning on multiple simultaneous lines. What you cant compete with price you can do it in numbers.

Believe me, having lots of isk is not the answer to on how to become happy. The fun part is getting there - not the goal

am i missing something here, or are you getign worked up over T2 BPO's using a two year old QEN as 'proof' ?

EVE can be harsh or unfair at times, if you think a T2 BPO is better, go bloody buy one, stop complaining that you never had the chance to get one in the lotteries.

basically, HTFU

Eve is a small game with not many players. Only a few have BPOs and most of them are entitled to come on to these threads and attack any players which threaten their BPOs.

CCP should take out T2 BPOs as a whole. Relax; it's only a game right? It'll make things fair for the invention newbies and you'll get by on fine while not having a T2 original blueprint I'm sure.

The T2 BPOs greatest effect is putting downward pressure on products they produce, no different then cheap labor in China.

Here is an example:

You can manufacture a hair dryer for $2.00 in China and sell it for $20 bucks locally (x10 margin). This is analogous to holding a T2 BPO max researched.

You can manufacture a hair dryer for $9.00 locally and sell it for $90 bucks (x10 margin). This is analogous to invention lets say based on the arguements.

Now imagine you can only create 50 hair dryers in China and 300 locally.

IF we only has the 50, supply and demand would raise prices as people complete for the 50 hair dryers.
However no one wants to buy $90 dollar hair dryers either. The T2 BPO forces the price of the locally owned hair dryers down to say $40. What happens when the 50 cheap hair dryers are consumed?

Several Things Can Happen (STCH)

1)No one buys the $40 hair dryer and wait for more $20 hair dryers. (Often the case)
2)They lower the price to $20 and get virtually no margin, however can provide more of them (so volume makes up the difference in profitability)
3)The price of the $20 hair dryer from China increases and the $40 decreases until a parity is achieved. The problem is this increases the margin of the China manufacturer who can buy out more raw material to make said hair dryer forcing the local competition to either pay more for material (and driving up their cost to manufacture even more) until they are out of business because they can manfacture with a profit. (This is the OP's gripe it seems, but since minerals are near infinite).

There is an economic imbalance that has created massive Cost of Entry barriers to established industries and key goods. Because of the imbalance inflation is barely under control and key markets have been cornered. While in real life we have groups like the SEC, WTO, Reserve Banks, and a lot of real world regulation, Eve has virtually none in the form of regulation so many, if not all of you spouting on how things work "in Real Life" in real life there would be a massive amount of regulation controlling just about everything going on in the market. There are no export controls, tarrifs, environment regulation, import\export agreements, transportation costs in the form of fuel, etc. All we have is a weak tax system that in context doesn't make any sense except as a sink. So no, Eve doesn't operate like the 'real world'. If you think that you need to take a few more credits worth beyond high school macro and micro economics.

Now is the OP right? Depends on how 'real' you want Eve to be. If Eve was real, the BPOs would be irrelevant because the raw material would be in such tight in supply the 1% that have the BPOs wouldn't be able to complete with the bulk of players for mineral demands. A 1%'er might bid 100,000,000,000,000 trit at 3.00 for a bulk order but there is just that much demand split between thousands of others that would pay 3.10. However, since minerals are nearly unlimited in Eve tempered only by the time and effort a player, put in to mining, that scenario doesn't work. We are luck enough though that how the manufacturing system works in Eve, it compensates (poor imho) for that missing component of the economy. The problem is Eve is almost whimsically vulnerable (due to no regulation) to just about every economic exploit possible lending Eve to what Anti-Trust regulations were created for. Eve is a larger Corporate Trust simulator. So everyone proclaiming how "Eve is Real", so do you want CCP to kick in the Anti-Trust regulations now or after the up-coming expansion? Yeah... thought so... back to a game now...

The more power you give the 1% the more capable they are of controlling the market indefinitely, which is how real life works. Question is can people playing a game stomach that in a game too?

From a game play standpoint does it make sense to keep the T2 BPOs in the game now that we have invention? No, it doesn't. T2 BPO lottery was a bad idea to begin with.

Does it need to be removed? No 'need' isn't the operative word. Should? Yes.

Is there a fair way to do that? No, there isn't. Period. Nothing will be FAIR in context to the T2 BPOs. Fixing will **** off alliances and people profiting off them. Not fixing them discourages new players from getting involved in manufacturing when they realize, as has been shown, the disproportionate costs between invention and T2 BPOs. The Power of Scale is irrelevant since there is no immediate need in a game, everything in a game is want remember? Yes we are back to Game vs Real Life.

But to play advocate to those "Eve is Real" types I offer this solution to CCP: "In real life we would just eminent domain the BPOs in question and provide them a compensation package decided by CCP."

I mean as easy as the Pro-BPO crowd say invention is then the BPOs going away should be a minor issue correct? I mean if BPOs don't impact the market then getting rid of them with a one time cash compensation should be good for Eve's economy. After all that whole Power of Scale thing should keep things moving along just fine.

Now you may all go back to insulting one another and reinforcing every stereotype of MMO players. Try having discussions people with one another without acting like you are in junior high bitching about who was a better guitarist, Eddie Van Halen or Yngwie Malmsteen.

The t2 BPOs are not downward pressuring ****. Seriously. Lets take a vagabond bpo. Yeah, pretty sweet to have one right? Well, you make ONE ship of that bpo per day. One! 3rd rate backup trading hubs turn over several of these per day. Let's not even get started with the real hubs where 10s are traded daily. Do you really think, that 1 BPO makes a single drop of difference? Really? But but omg there is more of these bpos spamming the market omgz! STFU, so what if there's 30? Still makes no difference.

Only ships that are not profitable to invent are the ones no one flies like the frigging rook. There is not one module on the market that isn't profitable to invent, GRANTED that it's actually usefull for something. If you insist on inventing some ******** crap that doesn't sell it's not the t2 BPO owners fault.

Oh and I've seen it many times when people whine they're looking at something that doesn't even have a bpo, thinking the bpo owners are holding them down. Examples, Hics, t2 battleships, jump freighters. Yeah that's right. There is no mystical Golem bpo. How awesome are those markets doing btw? No bpo owners to screw you over there, only smarter players.

Think a little beyond "If I had a t2 BPO I would be making mad isks.... just like everyone else". No you would not, you would make as much as you can with a damn dominix bpo if t2 bpos hit the market.

I don't care any more if these precious innocent noobs get offended any more. It's just the same old clueless drivel over and over.

It's been said over and over, invent and STFU.

I put this up to have a discussion about this topic. I am not wanting SPECIAL treatment. My major point is that the system is not equal for everyone. Saying "go buy one" is not a solution because I am talking about how the BPOs affect the market as a whole across all items. Yes it is possible to buy one and be one of the few but me owning one does not change the affect that T2 BPOs have on the market for the MAJORITY of people. The BPOs devalue their skills and make invention even more high risk of a venture.

You are the one being narrowminded and short sighted. You are the one who seems incable of seeing the whole picture.

So stop whining and let the adults have a real conversation.

You seem very angry, have you considered professional help? Try to be civil, the OP has a right to their opinion without you degenerating into obscenities name calling. It's childish and inappropriate.