These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

In-Game Events and Gatherings

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

YES YOU CAN HAVE MY STUFF / DNSBLACK LOOKING FOR GTC SELLER

First post First post First post
Author
Xander Phoena
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#181 - 2013-10-18 19:12:57 UTC
DNSBlack, you magnificent, magnificent bastard.

Far as I can see, DNSBlack has done nothing Somer don't do when they give 'Somer credits' out with GTC sales.

CCP's only options are to either go after DNSBlack and Somer or allow both to happen. Sophie's Choice if ever there was one. Would LOVE to be a fly on the wall of CCP HQ in Reykjavik right around now.

www.crossingzebras.com

Rain6638
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#182 - 2013-10-18 19:16:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6638
Money Makin Mitch wrote:
Rain6638 wrote:
while everyone is cheering for OP, has anyone realized this is one step closer to CCP selling items directly for money? it would be an extension of OP's logic

yes, we realize that. if they would just outright say that's they are going to do or allow others to do, it will make it a whole lot easier to either unsub my accounts or create my own site/service.

i doubt that, because it would've been mentioned already? what if CCP cut the red tape for everyone including themselves, and established a character cash-out and sale system? you can cash out according to an sp appraisal algorithm, and they sell your character for money at a slightly higher rate... assets and all, just sell the character "in place"

[ 2013.06.21 09:52:05 ] (notify) For initiating combat your security status has been adjusted by -0.1337

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#183 - 2013-10-18 19:17:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Dad, you said I could watch TV if I did the dishes.

Well I threatened my little sister into doing them so technically I got them done.

What do you mean I'm now grounded from the TV for a month? But you said...

It's funny how relying on loopholes to get what you want can back fire in your face when dealing with the folks who create the rules to begin with.

I wouldn't be surprised if a temporary ban was put in place on a certain account for a few months while this is "investigated".

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#184 - 2013-10-18 19:23:23 UTC
So, If GTC's can't be sold for cash + Black credits, why can they be sold for cash + Blink credits?

This is very confusing...Question
Dani Lizardov
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#185 - 2013-10-18 19:28:14 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Dad, you said I could watch TV if I did the dishes.

Well I threatened my little sister into doing them so technically I got them done.

What do you mean I'm now grounded from the TV for a month? But you said...

It's funny how relying on loopholes to get what you want can back fire in your face when dealing with the folks who create the rules to begin with.

I wouldn't be surprised if a temporary ban was put in place on a certain account for a few months while this is "investigated".


We all wait here to see that taking place!

No one is actually hopping for RMT to be legalized in this game.

I personally enjoy how CCP struggle to decide who the bad kid / kids are and how to punish them. Big smile
On the other hand i really want them to be punished for that.
Theng Hofses
State War Academy
Caldari State
#186 - 2013-10-18 19:30:17 UTC
Here is what is really at stake for CCP:

If players can convert game currency into real money in any CCP-sanction way then game money has received real world value. If it has real world value, all game currency must be carried on CCP's financial statements as a liability. As CCP generates game currency that liability becomes larger and larger (ratting rewards, etc) The only way to recognize that on their financial statements is by accounting for it as either a cost or an impairment which would reduce their profitability. All players would become unsecured creditors of CCP. The status as a unsecured creditor and the requirement to carry it as a liability would probably continue even if the player stops his subscription. The only way out of that would be to irrevocably confiscate all isk and assets the moment your subscription lapses. This is a customer service nightmare to say the least.

In addition, they would probably have to register at least as a money agent, possibly even as a bank as they are adding to the money supply due to the fungible nature of their game currency.

Addressing this would completely disrupt the game economy at best, make CCP unprofitable at worst. This is a very bad outcome for everyone involved. It is imperative for CCP to make sure that their game currency has no real world value.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#187 - 2013-10-18 19:33:23 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Dani Lizardov wrote:

I personally enjoy how CCP struggle to decide who the bad kid / kids are and how to punish them. Big smile

The problem is CCP really likes one of the bad kids (Somer) but doesn't like some of the other bad kids, like Black and Shai.

But apparently, its ok for Somer to give out ships for Somer credits, but it isn't ok for Shai to give out ships for Shai credits.

Theng Hofses wrote:
Here is what is really at stake for CCP:

*stuff*

So why is it ok for Somer to do this thing, and not Shai 'Hulud. They're literally doing the exact same thing. This really confuses me ...
Charlith Kindred
invidious Squid
#188 - 2013-10-18 19:35:46 UTC
Congratulations on the successful GTC sales.

How can CCP ban DNSBLACK? They have, after all, publicly endorsed Somer who has been doing this for however long.

This makes me want to re-sub my main account and cash out myself.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#189 - 2013-10-18 19:40:46 UTC
Theng Hofses wrote:
Here is what is really at stake for CCP:

If players can convert game currency into real money in any CCP-sanction way then game money has received real world value. If it has real world value, all game currency must be carried on CCP's financial statements as a liability.

uh what

no

that would only be the case if CCP was the one who would pay you $$ for isk

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Theng Hofses
State War Academy
Caldari State
#190 - 2013-10-18 19:57:56 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Theng Hofses wrote:
Here is what is really at stake for CCP:

If players can convert game currency into real money in any CCP-sanction way then game money has received real world value. If it has real world value, all game currency must be carried on CCP's financial statements as a liability.

uh what

no

that would only be the case if CCP was the one who would pay you $$ for isk


The authorized PLEX reseller is an agent of CCP. You can make the argument that by allowing the piggy backing of other in-game value they willingly enabled the fungibility.

Funny enough, I found this one:

http://www.pillsburylaw.com/siteFiles/Media/files/Make%20Sure%20Your%20Virtual%20Currency%20Doesn't%20Enter%20Illegal%20Gambling%20Territory(1).pdf
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#191 - 2013-10-18 19:58:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
Theng Hofses wrote:
Here is what is really at stake for CCP:

If players can convert game currency into real money in any CCP-sanction way then game money has received real world value. If it has real world value, all game currency must be carried on CCP's financial statements as a liability. As CCP generates game currency that liability becomes larger and larger (ratting rewards, etc) The only way to recognize that on their financial statements is by accounting for it as either a cost or an impairment which would reduce their profitability. All players would become unsecured creditors of CCP. The status as a unsecured creditor and the requirement to carry it as a liability would probably continue even if the player stops his subscription. The only way out of that would be to irrevocably confiscate all isk and assets the moment your subscription lapses. This is a customer service nightmare to say the least.

In addition, they would probably have to register at least as a money agent, possibly even as a bank as they are adding to the money supply due to the fungible nature of their game currency.

Addressing this would completely disrupt the game economy at best, make CCP unprofitable at worst. This is a very bad outcome for everyone involved. It is imperative for CCP to make sure that their game currency has no real world value.

I have to agree with Weaselior. You are way off on that. CCP already pays tax on the money they make selling GTCs, for example. The stock of GTCs has no value, though. ISK is already traded for real money and thus has value according to your statement... but you don't know how the tax laws apply here, clearly. You made that all up. If you could trade ISK for RL cash, the person sending you the money might get charged a sales tax or something. The person receiving the RL money would have to report that money as earned income. The ISK itself is virtual. It's not taxed. No country has laws that tax virtual items or play money.

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#192 - 2013-10-18 20:06:28 UTC
Theng Hofses wrote:


The authorized PLEX reseller is an agent of CCP. You can make the argument that by allowing the piggy backing of other in-game value they willingly enabled the fungibility.

Funny enough, I found this one:

http://www.pillsburylaw.com/siteFiles/Media/files/Make%20Sure%20Your%20Virtual%20Currency%20Doesn't%20Enter%20Illegal%20Gambling%20Territory(1).pdf

the things you are saying make zero sense

ccp has to account for things like plex on their balance sheet. that's because they've contracted to redeem plex for game time, they are basically unused gift cards. each plex in existence is a promise to provide the holder with 30d of game time and is a liability

let's say ccp allows me to sell isk to you if I want and does not ban people for these sorts of transactions. does isk need to go on CCP's balance sheet? no, of course not: the amount of isk in existence is irrelevant to ccp's bottom line. i can do nothing with my isk that affects ccp's bottom line. they don't sell the isk, they don't buy the isk, nothing with isk touches ccp's bottom line

now, if they allowed free exchange between isk and $$ then yeah they land in all sorts of legal issues which are bad news. I'm not suggesting they do that, RMT would be bad news. but the issues are not accounting issues. even the issues you raised before about what happens if you unsub are easily dealt with by contract (the eula).

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#193 - 2013-10-18 20:13:39 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Dani Lizardov wrote:

I personally enjoy how CCP struggle to decide who the bad kid / kids are and how to punish them. Big smile

The problem is CCP really likes one of the bad kids (Somer) but doesn't like some of the other bad kids, like Black and Shai.

But apparently, its ok for Somer to give out ships for Somer credits, but it isn't ok for Shai to give out ships for Shai credits.

Theng Hofses wrote:
Here is what is really at stake for CCP:

*stuff*

So why is it ok for Somer to do this thing, and not Shai 'Hulud. They're literally doing the exact same thing. This really confuses me ...

It does seem unfair doesn't it? I still think there are only two four options for CCP.


  • They can re-classify SOMER as a dec/CCP employee/whatever, because right now he is. In doing this his account would have the same restrictions applied to it the devs have.

  • They legalize RMT... or at least let this raffle BS thing keep going on.

  • They can Ban SOMER and everyone doing this.

  • They can just tell everyone F off and ban people selective based on whether or not they like that player, as seems to be the status quo.

I don't care with regards to the top 3... pick any one. Don't care. I just want to see a level playing field. If it's not.. I don't see the point of EvE. It goes from being a game to being a frustrating hassle.

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Powers Sa
#194 - 2013-10-18 20:17:50 UTC
Xander Phoena wrote:
DNSBlack, you magnificent, magnificent bastard.

Far as I can see, DNSBlack has done nothing Somer don't do when they give 'Somer credits' out with GTC sales.

CCP's only options are to either go after DNSBlack and Somer or allow both to happen. Sophie's Choice if ever there was one. Would LOVE to be a fly on the wall of CCP HQ in Reykjavik right around now.

Everytime someone threatens to quit, ccp can just link them to a sanctioned cashout gtc broker.

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.

Xander Phoena
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#195 - 2013-10-18 20:19:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Xander Phoena
The key thing to remember here is Somer are NOT an authorised GTC reseller. They sell GTCs through Markee and Markee pays Somer a commission.

We don't know what % they make but it is likely to be around 5%. So Somer make a couple of bucks on each GTC sale without actually selling the GTCs themselves. That $ figure - whatever it is - is exchanged with the player for 'x' amount of Somer blink credit.

CCP knows this happens and this must be ok - hell, CCP gave Somer a fortune in gifts to auction off after all.

So Somer is exchanging $$ for Somer credits without being a reseller. DNSBlack has exchanged $$ for Black credits without being a reseller. I've got that all right, yes?

www.crossingzebras.com

Darius JOHNSON
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#196 - 2013-10-18 20:19:42 UTC
Just so I'm clear, even though this is hilarious and I said the EULA forbids this specific behavior that doesn't mean I don't think CCP can decide to grandfather people into these situations and that you're not a giant bunch of spoiled brats.
DarkDecay
Real money traders
#197 - 2013-10-18 20:20:17 UTC
Xander Phoena wrote:
DNSBlack, you magnificent, magnificent bastard.


DNSBlack, you magnificent, magnificent bastard. Lol
Money Makin Mitch
Paid in Full
#198 - 2013-10-18 20:24:47 UTC
Darius JOHNSON wrote:
Just so I'm clear, even though this is hilarious and I said the EULA forbids this specific behavior that doesn't mean I don't think CCP can decide to grandfather people into these situations and that you're not a giant bunch of spoiled paying customers.

FTFY Cool
DarkDecay
Real money traders
#199 - 2013-10-18 20:27:57 UTC
Xander Phoena wrote:
So Somer is exchanging $$ for Somer credits without being a reseller. DNSBlack has exchanged $$ for Black credits without being a reseller. I've got that all right, yes?


He did the same as me and used an official reseller to get the buyer his GTC.

We both used the somer defence of raffle and made up currency.

Where we differed was that he never seemed to ask for a massive $2500 for his GTC's and someone just offered it, while I set an actual price for the GTC of $105 instead of $35 that people could accept for a 'free' plex pack.

This could be the key point?

(will be posting something similar in main thread too)

Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#200 - 2013-10-18 20:28:02 UTC
This happens, there's no point in not selling everything.

There is now a perfectly legal way for every organization we've ever yelled at for allegedly doing RMT.. to now actually start doing RMT and laughing at CCP's face, the communities face, etc.

All Nullsec would basically turn into "Get out your ruining my actual cash" (well also wormholes, lowsec and highsec).

Lets see if CCP has completely given completely up.

Then again, this would be putting a face on RMT "and actually defining it for both CCP, the community, and the world.

I see Goons, the legions, all the botters, all the people who ever contemplated selling stuff, to magically come up with 1000 different "raffles" and selling everything they have in storage.

Character quitting, sell it
Extra account, sell it.

This is not a good place for CCP.

Yaay!!!!