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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#901 - 2013-10-18 19:23:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Two step wrote:
Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about?


Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.

Will a player or program, using the API, be able to tell if a siphon is on their POS or not?


Not. The API will lie about the content. Sorry thought that was clear.


This is an ~*expletives deleted*~ idea, although figuring out ways to make the API display the wrong information may come in handy a month or two down the road when you'll need to find a way of making the API report that I've got several hundred billion in new isk and assets as a way of tricking me to log in to your dying game.
Falkor1984
The Love Dragons
#902 - 2013-10-18 19:23:41 UTC
Zakhin Desver wrote:
the whole syphon concept would be useless.


+1 to this!
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#903 - 2013-10-18 19:24:05 UTC
Kat Ayclism wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
CCP Legion wrote:
Once this is out we will be keeping an eye on how players use it, both via feedback here and metrics that we gather. We can then rebalance it accordingly to make sure it is not completely unbalanced or if it is used as a pure griefing tool for example. There are a lot of values which we can tweak relatively easily as required.


As is, these stand to completely shut down T2 production. They are cheap, laughably cheap, and the fact that they stack can shut down a pos completely. Combined with no notification? It's just too much.

Tone them down somewhat.

...(snip)...

What I am, on the other hand, is rubbing my hands with glee at the sheer amount of grief I could inflict with these as is. Given timezone shenanigans, I can shut down system after system with myself and a few buddies/alts, even if you cap me at 5 per character.

Remember, folks. What one person can do, a thousand can do a thousand times better.

Exactly this. Although I do have moons that I manage, you can bet your ass that I am also going to be abusing the hell out of these if they're implemented as is.
You think some small group with less income can do some damage with these? Wait til you ******* see what we can do.


Makes sense. After all, the job of terrifying-supercap-alliance-that-drops-on-everything-for-good-fights has been taken over by Black Legion, so what else are you to do with your isk?

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#904 - 2013-10-18 19:25:12 UTC
TimNeilson wrote:
I'm also honestly amazed that more people aren't freaking out about this, as if you can't trust the data you're getting from the api you might as well not even have the api in the first place


Personally, I'd have thought 'hey, let's make the API lie to you' being a bad idea would be amazingly self-evident, given CCP just dealt with another little shi*tstorm over transparency and the information affecting the in-game value of resources being untrustworthy.

If you want to make the API give incorrect projections of future production, awesome. Having it say 'Boss, we should have 50,000 units of X in 24 days' is a plus. Having it say that and having those projections wrong because your POS can't tell it's being siphoned is actually pretty freaking cool. If anything, that would let you go 'hey, we were projected to have X, why do we have 60% of X?' and actually be a damned handy little API move that you'd probably see people be happy about.

But telling the players 'this is a trustworthy resource for data on what you already have. We are making it untrustworthy' is never, never cool.
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#905 - 2013-10-18 19:26:41 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Ganthrithor wrote:
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
Or, actually live in the space where you are holding POSs and have patrols doing their jobs.


Yeah, that will be tons of fun. Everyone fleet up for the "go warp to all the moons in our region to look for anchorable structures" fleet!

Won't that be fun? I'm gonna go sub another six accounts right now because this just sounds so interesting and ~*emergent*~...

There is only one good thing about this terrible expansion and it's the warp speed changes... literally the only good thing that's happened to EVE online in the last two years.

tl;dr: Get your head examined, friend.


D-scan. And if you don't have your people in your region occupying your space, what is the point in you having your space when someone else could obviously make better use of it?

The problem with nullsec is the sprawling empires of uninhabited space, and this is a solution to that.

Ganthrithor wrote:
Johny Tyler wrote:
How are you planning to collect from these things? What ship has a 1200 m/3 cargo hold that you want to put within 50km of a POS?

I admit my experience with POS is mostly limited to null-sec and WH pos, and never moon mining...

Also, while I did read all the CCP posts in the thread, I just skimmed most of pages 20 - 40ish so I don't know for sure if this has been brought up...

I really like the idea in general. I hope this will spark more fighting.

Maybe I deserved to be flamed for not knowing enough about POS mechanics, but my impression is that actually collecting the materials out of these devices will be difficult at best for someone who is not the POS owner. I imagine this as just one more chore for the POS owner to go around collect all the siphoned materials then man a gun and blow them up. Unless you can collect from them then the time, irritation, and waste are the only things you achieve.


You will need a blockade runner and you'll have to line it up so you can do a moving, aligned drive-by run to to scoop the contents. It's doable, technically...


POSs are so slow to lock things, and even slower to point things, that even my cargo fit prowler would easily be able to ninja the moon goo and delicious byproduct tears before the POS manages to lock me.
If you have trouble looting your siphons, you're bad at EVE. So basicly a Goon Smile

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#906 - 2013-10-18 19:27:03 UTC
Zakhin Desver wrote:
Kat Ayclism wrote:
Zakhin Desver wrote:
People here is talking about indys full of spyhons like if they were cheap as ****. Even 10 = 100m ,and you just need to log once in a while in your pos to pop 10m with one shot.

BTW, pretending that leaving 1 guy watching your poses while the rest are in PVP is too much for you, must be a joke. Are you telling me you have hundreds of players but leaving a few watching your poses is too much

I knew it, nullsec alliances are kids even compared with highsec dwellers. Grow a pair.

You think 100mil is a lot? You think 5 bil is a lot?

It's not just "1 guy," it's 1 guy watching EACH pos EVERY HOUR of the day. Who do you think faces more problems with that though? Hint: It's not the people with insane timezone coverage and a generous amount of players and alts.

Look at who are telling you that these are OP. People that grief as a primary play style. This is not crying about them, this is warning beforehand just how ******* horribly we will be able to use these things. From the people that abuse literally everything that won't get you banned (and even things that will). The FW system that everyone warned could be manipulated, and then subsequently was to an obscene amount? Yeah those same people.

Warning you beforehand.


Then bring the shitstorm over our heads, I dare you. CCP said they are going to observe the effect they have in the game, so do your worse.

On the other hand, people are going to enjoy a lot having the chance to mess with the big guys in the hood (me included) If the price is reasonable, I would do it even losing money, just for giggles and fun.


See, here's the thing you don't understand. For devs in general, and CCP devs in particular, making shiny new toys is more fun than fixing old broken crap, and today's shiny new toys are what become tomorrow's old broken crap. Only these look like shiny new broken crap, and CCP has a terrible track record for fixing broke-ass new "features" later. Weaselior posted a pretty good list toward the beginning of this thread.
Falkor1984
The Love Dragons
#907 - 2013-10-18 19:27:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Falkor1984
Arrendis wrote:
But telling the players 'this is a trustworthy resource for data on what you already have. We are making it untrustworthy' is never, never cool.

It is however in line with CCP's tendecy to solve one problem by creating anotherBig smile

But seriously, you are 100% right. Why have an API that provides data if the data is known to be inaccurate on purpose.
Southern Kros
LOW SEC MINING
#908 - 2013-10-18 19:28:31 UTC
Falkor1984 wrote:
Southern Kros wrote:
I have no love for Goons nor any of the major alliances. As a solo / small corporation player they burn Jita, gank you and other wise **** you off. They don't care so why should I.

I do however love this idea and I plan to make lots of these wee beasties. I don't really care if they get blown up after 10 mins or 24hrs. I am doing it for ***** and giggles pure and simple.

If I make any ISK I will be delighted but just getting back at some of those tossers in Alliances, especially goons will make my day just that little sweeter.

Goons, your moon goo is all mine.

It seems you dont like Goons, which is something one might agree toLol. But this thing is not gonna hurt Goons or their friends: they are able to provide 24/7 checks on their towers. The problem lies with the posses of the smaller entities: they cannot provide round the clock coverage and will be subject to siphoning by multiple siphons for extended periods. So basically if you support this idea, you are actually supporting Goons and other bigass powerblocks.



You may indeed be correct. I am sure everyone will be shitting on each other and if the goons and power blocks have to spend resources defending their usually afk towers then that means there will be less of them to gank, burn jita and otherwise **** off other players.

The power blocks will be able to scale this a 1000 times more than me and a few mates.
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#909 - 2013-10-18 19:30:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Zakhin Desver
Ganthrithor wrote:
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Two step wrote:
Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about?


Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.

Will a player or program, using the API, be able to tell if a siphon is on their POS or not?


Not. The API will lie about the content. Sorry thought that was clear.


This is an ~*expletives deleted*~ idea, although figuring out ways to make the API display the wrong information may come in handy a month or two down the road when you'll need to find a way of making the API report that I've got several hundred billion in new isk and assets as a way of tricking me to log in to your dying game.


Did i hear a Goon threatening to leave the game? Did I?
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#910 - 2013-10-18 19:32:53 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Zakhin Desver wrote:
People here is talking about indys full of spyhons like if they were cheap as ****. Even 10 = 100m ,and you just need to log once in a while in your pos to pop 10m with one shot.

BTW, pretending that leaving 1 guy watching your poses while the rest are in PVP is too much for you, must be a joke. Are you telling me you have hundreds of players but leaving a few watching your poses is too much

I knew it, nullsec alliances are kids even compared with highsec dwellers. Grow a pair.


Would you want to be the one guy? You know, the one guy logging in and using his time NOT having fun like everyone else?

Fire and forget is a bad mechanic. Forcing timezone wide babysitting is a bad mechanic.

This has both.


I agree, fire and forget is bad.
So remove moon mining as a POS activity, then we can scrap siphons.

Querns wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
If a guy is carrying around 500 of these siphons, at about 10m a piece, he's an idiot with 5b of siphons in his cargo and we all get a good laugh.

People wont be stupid enough to carry 500 of these things at a time, totaling at 5b--what am i saying, ofc someone will, but they'll be retarrded and die and we all laugh

Uh, it's a blockade runner, they are nearly uncatchable

also 5b is a paltry sum


Perhaps to the players who make trillions of dollars a month harvesting moon goo in a fashion that leaves them vulnerable to this mechanic...

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#911 - 2013-10-18 19:33:02 UTC
Falkor1984 wrote:
But seriously, you are 100% right. Why have an API that provides data if the data is known to be inaccurate on purpose.



::CCP::

In other news, I just got my boxed set. Gonna give Danger Game a try tonight. If I find any horribly broken rules that require you to keep playing the game 23.5/7 just to keep from losing, I'll let folks know.

(Also: the 'do not just throw electronics in the trash' notice w/the rifter is in like... 29 different languages. I am halfway convinced my nerd friends are going to think that's the coolest thing in the box.)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#912 - 2013-10-18 19:33:52 UTC
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Zakhin Desver wrote:
Kat Ayclism wrote:
Zakhin Desver wrote:
People here is talking about indys full of spyhons like if they were cheap as ****. Even 10 = 100m ,and you just need to log once in a while in your pos to pop 10m with one shot.

BTW, pretending that leaving 1 guy watching your poses while the rest are in PVP is too much for you, must be a joke. Are you telling me you have hundreds of players but leaving a few watching your poses is too much

I knew it, nullsec alliances are kids even compared with highsec dwellers. Grow a pair.

You think 100mil is a lot? You think 5 bil is a lot?

It's not just "1 guy," it's 1 guy watching EACH pos EVERY HOUR of the day. Who do you think faces more problems with that though? Hint: It's not the people with insane timezone coverage and a generous amount of players and alts.

Look at who are telling you that these are OP. People that grief as a primary play style. This is not crying about them, this is warning beforehand just how ******* horribly we will be able to use these things. From the people that abuse literally everything that won't get you banned (and even things that will). The FW system that everyone warned could be manipulated, and then subsequently was to an obscene amount? Yeah those same people.

Warning you beforehand.


Then bring the shitstorm over our heads, I dare you. CCP said they are going to observe the effect they have in the game, so do your worse.

On the other hand, people are going to enjoy a lot having the chance to mess with the big guys in the hood (me included) If the price is reasonable, I would do it even losing money, just for giggles and fun.


See, here's the thing you don't understand. For devs in general, and CCP devs in particular, making shiny new toys is more fun than fixing old broken crap, and today's shiny new toys are what become tomorrow's old broken crap. Only these look like shiny new broken crap, and CCP has a terrible track record for fixing broke-ass new "features" later. Weaselior posted a pretty good list toward the beginning of this thread.

To quote a wise person, the Bane of VFK:

Quote:
Harry Forever: I want you to feel it

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Arrendis
TK Corp
#913 - 2013-10-18 19:34:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
Zakhin Desver wrote:
Did i hear a Goon threatening to leave the game? Did I?


Goons quit EVE all the time, man...

... and then resub for the next sov war.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#914 - 2013-10-18 19:38:08 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Zakhin Desver wrote:
Did i hear a Goon threatening to leave the game? Did I?


Goons quite EVE all the time, man...

... and then resub for the next sov war.

Yeah. Actually our POS people leave the game the most...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#915 - 2013-10-18 19:39:10 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
Or, actually live in the space where you are holding POSs and have patrols doing their jobs.


Yeah, that will be tons of fun. Everyone fleet up for the "go warp to all the moons in our region to look for anchorable structures" fleet!

Won't that be fun? I'm gonna go sub another six accounts right now because this just sounds so interesting and ~*emergent*~...

There is only one good thing about this terrible expansion and it's the warp speed changes... literally the only good thing that's happened to EVE online in the last two years.

tl;dr: Get your head examined, friend.


D-scan. And if you don't have your people in your region occupying your space, what is the point in you having your space when someone else could obviously make better use of it?

The problem with nullsec is the sprawling empires of uninhabited space, and this is a solution to that.


Except that nobody's going to give up their space because you evaporated 12% of their moongoo and maybe stole a little more for yourself. I'll repeat that, because I don't think you get it: nobody is going roll over and give away their space to some hypothetical small, up-and-coming player group. It's not going to happen. All siphons are going to do is irritate people and drive up the price of moon goo. They aren't going to provide any fun gameplay for anyone (the "griefer" gets all the enjoyment of dropping something out of their cargo hold, while the successful "defender" gets all the excitement of finding an abandoned structure and then blowing it up unopposed) and they're not going to affect the sov landscape, so they're essentially pointless detractors from EVE Online: A Decaying Spaceship Game.

Flying around through space full of blues to look for abandoned structures is boring, whether it's using probes, d-scan, or the Mk 1 Eyeball. This "feature" is a stupid idea and a waste of development time / our money.
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#916 - 2013-10-18 19:41:10 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Zakhin Desver wrote:
Did i hear a Goon threatening to leave the game? Did I?


Goons quite EVE all the time, man...

... and then resub for the next sov war.


It's not their depart, but the threatening and the sweet tears what matters
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#917 - 2013-10-18 19:41:11 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Zakhin Desver wrote:
People here is talking about indys full of spyhons like if they were cheap as ****. Even 10 = 100m ,and you just need to log once in a while in your pos to pop 10m with one shot.

BTW, pretending that leaving 1 guy watching your poses while the rest are in PVP is too much for you, must be a joke. Are you telling me you have hundreds of players but leaving a few watching your poses is too much

I knew it, nullsec alliances are kids even compared with highsec dwellers. Grow a pair.


Would you want to be the one guy? You know, the one guy logging in and using his time NOT having fun like everyone else?

Fire and forget is a bad mechanic. Forcing timezone wide babysitting is a bad mechanic.

This has both.


I agree, fire and forget is bad.
So remove moon mining as a POS activity, then we can scrap siphons.


The existence of one bad mechanic does not justify adding two more on top of it.

We also know that, despite their constant attempts to change it, they are pretty much stuck with POS'es as they exist already. The guys who coded them left CCP a long time ago, and did not leave notes. I believe that there's a blue post to that effect floating around somewhere.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#918 - 2013-10-18 19:42:45 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
or the Mk 1 Eyeball


Oh my god...

... NOW WE KNOW WHAT THE MONACLE IS FOR! I bet it'll make these things show up on the in-space system scanner like anomalies do!
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#919 - 2013-10-18 19:43:54 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
Or, actually live in the space where you are holding POSs and have patrols doing their jobs.


Yeah, that will be tons of fun. Everyone fleet up for the "go warp to all the moons in our region to look for anchorable structures" fleet!

Won't that be fun? I'm gonna go sub another six accounts right now because this just sounds so interesting and ~*emergent*~...

There is only one good thing about this terrible expansion and it's the warp speed changes... literally the only good thing that's happened to EVE online in the last two years.

tl;dr: Get your head examined, friend.


D-scan. And if you don't have your people in your region occupying your space, what is the point in you having your space when someone else could obviously make better use of it?

The problem with nullsec is the sprawling empires of uninhabited space, and this is a solution to that.


Except that nobody's going to give up their space because you evaporated 12% of their moongoo and maybe stole a little more for yourself. I'll repeat that, because I don't think you get it: nobody is going roll over and give away their space to some hypothetical small, up-and-coming player group. It's not going to happen. All siphons are going to do is irritate people and drive up the price of moon goo. They aren't going to provide any fun gameplay for anyone (the "griefer" gets all the enjoyment of dropping something out of their cargo hold, while the successful "defender" gets all the excitement of finding an abandoned structure and then blowing it up unopposed) and they're not going to affect the sov landscape, so they're essentially pointless detractors from EVE Online: A Decaying Spaceship Game.

Flying around through space full of blues to look for abandoned structures is boring, whether it's using probes, d-scan, or the Mk 1 Eyeball. This "feature" is a stupid idea and a waste of development time / our money.


Well, you obviously don't understand the griefer. Knowing you are inflicting damage to somebody you couldn't harm any other way is SWEET
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#920 - 2013-10-18 19:45:27 UTC
Oh look, I missed another gem of an edit:

M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Johny Tyler wrote:
How are you planning to collect from these things? What ship has a 1200 m/3 cargo hold that you want to put within 50km of a POS?

I admit my experience with POS is mostly limited to null-sec and WH pos, and never moon mining...

Also, while I did read all the CCP posts in the thread, I just skimmed most of pages 20 - 40ish so I don't know for sure if this has been brought up...

I really like the idea in general. I hope this will spark more fighting.

Maybe I deserved to be flamed for not knowing enough about POS mechanics, but my impression is that actually collecting the materials out of these devices will be difficult at best for someone who is not the POS owner. I imagine this as just one more chore for the POS owner to go around collect all the siphoned materials then man a gun and blow them up. Unless you can collect from them then the time, irritation, and waste are the only things you achieve.


You will need a blockade runner and you'll have to line it up so you can do a moving, aligned drive-by run to to scoop the contents. It's doable, technically...


POSs are so slow to lock things, and even slower to point things, that even my cargo fit prowler would easily be able to ninja the moon goo and delicious byproduct tears before the POS manages to lock me.
If you have trouble looting your siphons, you're bad at EVE. So basicly a Goon Smile


Yeah, thanks for restating exactly what I said in the original post you quoted and then calling me bad. What an effective tactic; I'm sure it will rapidly convince the entire population of EVEO that I'm bad at EVE.