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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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Arrendis
TK Corp
#881 - 2013-10-18 18:43:45 UTC
Johny Tyler wrote:
How are you planning to collect from these things? What ship has a 1200 m/3 cargo hold that you want to put within 50km of a POS?


A Probe (T1 exploration frig) can get a 1200m3 cargo hold. With the warp speed mechanics, it's the perfect ship for zipping around low-sec emptying these things. Especially since you can just dock up after each one and dump the goo to your hauler-alt in his blockade runner.
Kat Ayclism
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#882 - 2013-10-18 18:45:35 UTC
Zakhin Desver wrote:
People here is talking about indys full of spyhons like if they were cheap as ****. Even 10 = 100m ,and you just need to log once in a while in your pos to pop 10m with one shot.

BTW, pretending that leaving 1 guy watching your poses while the rest are in PVP is too much for you, must be a joke. Are you telling me you have hundreds of players but leaving a few watching your poses is too much

I knew it, nullsec alliances are kids even compared with highsec dwellers. Grow a pair.

You think 100mil is a lot? You think 5 bil is a lot?

It's not just "1 guy," it's 1 guy watching EACH pos EVERY HOUR of the day. Who do you think faces more problems with that though? Hint: It's not the people with insane timezone coverage and a generous amount of players and alts.

Look at who are telling you that these are OP. People that grief as a primary play style. This is not crying about them, this is warning beforehand just how ******* horribly we will be able to use these things. From the people that abuse literally everything that won't get you banned (and even things that will). The FW system that everyone warned could be manipulated, and then subsequently was to an obscene amount? Yeah those same people.

Warning you beforehand.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#883 - 2013-10-18 18:48:26 UTC
Basically syphons are stupid as hell. If CCP want to provide ways for smaller groups to disrupt the income / operations of larger groups, how about focusing on how income-related activities work in the first place rather than developing un-detectable, un-manned income vaporizers. Guess what: even if I'm in the griefer's shoes here (and I will be, since all I've done in EVE for the last five years is live in other people's space being a space eh-hole) siphons are still dull as hell. Oh joy-- I'll have all the excitement of pushing a structure out of my hold and logging out. That sounds just like life in the Resistance, and is totally something I'd pay $14/mo to do...

If you want to truly empower disruption tactics, how about doing something like changing some of the game mechanics that currently prevent non-consensual PvP in this game, or re-balancing nullsec sov and imcome mechanics themselves to that there is actually player activity there to be disrupted. Christ, you guys have become so unimaginative it's not even funny.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#884 - 2013-10-18 18:50:20 UTC
Kat Ayclism wrote:

You think 100mil is a lot? You think 5 bil is a lot?

It's not just "1 guy," it's 1 guy watching EACH pos EVERY HOUR of the day. Who do you think faces more problems with that though? Hint: It's not the people with insane timezone coverage and a generous amount of players and alts.

Look at who are telling you that these are OP. People that grief as a primary play style. This is not crying about them, this is warning beforehand just how ******* horribly we will be able to use these things. From the people that abuse literally everything that won't get you banned (and even things that will). The FW system that everyone warned could be manipulated, and then subsequently was to an obscene amount? Yeah those same people.

Warning you beforehand.


They're the same people who think Vegas is a place they're going to go to win lots of money. You can't help them think.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#885 - 2013-10-18 18:51:18 UTC
Zakhin Desver wrote:


BTW, pretending that leaving 1 guy watching your poses while the rest are in PVP is too much for you, must be a joke. Are you telling me you have hundreds of players but leaving a few watching your poses is too much

I knew it, nullsec alliances are kids even compared with highsec dwellers. Grow a pair.


So, wait, which is it? Is this easier for the little guy because he only has one tower to watch, or is it easier for the massive coalitions because we can marshal more manpower and distribute work over a wider base?

Because, you know, you've now argued for both of those.
Falkor1984
The Love Dragons
#886 - 2013-10-18 18:52:29 UTC
Yet another ill thought trough idea by CCP. Its beginning to look a lot like the time before the summer of rage when CCP had all these crazy things in mind that sounded like a good idea at the time as well.

This is an almost zero risk action for the leech and a pain in the butt for pos owners. A pos owner now has to not only go out to check posses every day, but he also needs to shoot structures. Maybe you guys at CCP dont notice, but shooting structures is not what people like. With the ease a syphon is placed every tower will require structure shooting every day. I do not understand how the hell people come up with these crazy ideas.

Pos management is boring enough already, now you add grind to it. Also freighters are gonna be even slower on short distances which makes filling posses even slower.

So al in all good game in given players with no skills cookies while making it the game boring for the people that actually put the effort in. Dumbing down is the name of the game yet again. Lets change the name to DumbedDown Online.
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#887 - 2013-10-18 18:53:04 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Querns wrote:
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:
mynnna wrote:


The drawback ought to come because you're out to steal my stuff, not because of some automated system that punishes me for not monitoring the POS 24/7. If the contents of the silo are still there by the time I come to get it, either you left and may never have had intent to steal my stuff in the first place, or I beat you in ~~~honourable space combat~~~ when you were defending it to get my stuff back.


The waste factor isn't a punishing system, but an incentive to react faster, cause you know that even if you have the number superiority and will win that ~~~honourable space combat~~~ there will be a loss that depend on your reaction time. Taking that into acocunt, the tool become a great thing to provoke fight. So you aren't punished for not monitoring your POS, but you are actually punished for not taking action against the thieves. Which goes in total adequation with what EVE is all about.

A 10m ISK, 100k EHP module is not worth fighting over for either party

If the siphonhaver logs on and finds his shit destroyed, welp, time to anchor another one from the 500 he has kicking around inside his blockade runner

If the poshaver logs on and finds his shit burgled, welp, time to assume control of the pos guns and shoot a single laser at the siphon until it goes away

The very nature of the interactions dissuades any actual interaction between siphonhaver and poshaver because erecting the siphon, scooping from the siphon, and destroying the siphon can all be done in complete safety

This is why things that actually matter like SBUs and POSes themselves and sov structures have things like timers and gobs of EHP

If a guy is carrying around 500 of these siphons, at about 10m a piece, he's an idiot with 5b of siphons in his cargo and we all get a good laugh.

People wont be stupid enough to carry 500 of these things at a time, totaling at 5b--what am i saying, ofc someone will, but they'll be retarrded and die and we all laugh


I know I'm laughing at this post!

You think people never fly around with expensive things. And 5b? Not much, for a lot of people.
Southern Kros
LOW SEC MINING
#888 - 2013-10-18 19:07:10 UTC
I have no love for Goons nor any of the major alliances. As a solo / small corporation player they burn Jita, gank you and other wise **** you off. They don't care so why should I.

I do however love this idea and I plan to make lots of these wee beasties. I don't really care if they get blown up after 10 mins or 24hrs. I am doing it for ***** and giggles pure and simple.

If I make any ISK I will be delighted but just getting back at some of those tossers in Alliances, especially goons will make my day just that little sweeter.

Goons, your moon goo is all mine.
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#889 - 2013-10-18 19:13:31 UTC
Southern Kros wrote:
I have no love for Goons nor any of the major alliances. As a solo / small corporation player they burn Jita, gank you and other wise **** you off. They don't care so why should I.

I do however love this idea and I plan to make lots of these wee beasties. I don't really care if they get blown up after 10 mins or 24hrs. I am doing it for ***** and giggles pure and simple.

If I make any ISK I will be delighted but just getting back at some of those tossers in Alliances, especially goons will make my day just that little sweeter.

Goons, your moon goo is all mine.


Sexy.

Oh, I thought you said man goo.
Falkor1984
The Love Dragons
#890 - 2013-10-18 19:15:44 UTC
Southern Kros wrote:
I have no love for Goons nor any of the major alliances. As a solo / small corporation player they burn Jita, gank you and other wise **** you off. They don't care so why should I.

I do however love this idea and I plan to make lots of these wee beasties. I don't really care if they get blown up after 10 mins or 24hrs. I am doing it for ***** and giggles pure and simple.

If I make any ISK I will be delighted but just getting back at some of those tossers in Alliances, especially goons will make my day just that little sweeter.

Goons, your moon goo is all mine.

It seems you dont like Goons, which is something one might agree toLol. But this thing is not gonna hurt Goons or their friends: they are able to provide 24/7 checks on their towers. The problem lies with the posses of the smaller entities: they cannot provide round the clock coverage and will be subject to siphoning by multiple siphons for extended periods. So basically if you support this idea, you are actually supporting Goons and other bigass powerblocks.
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#891 - 2013-10-18 19:16:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Zakhin Desver
Kat Ayclism wrote:
Zakhin Desver wrote:
People here is talking about indys full of spyhons like if they were cheap as ****. Even 10 = 100m ,and you just need to log once in a while in your pos to pop 10m with one shot.

BTW, pretending that leaving 1 guy watching your poses while the rest are in PVP is too much for you, must be a joke. Are you telling me you have hundreds of players but leaving a few watching your poses is too much

I knew it, nullsec alliances are kids even compared with highsec dwellers. Grow a pair.

You think 100mil is a lot? You think 5 bil is a lot?

It's not just "1 guy," it's 1 guy watching EACH pos EVERY HOUR of the day. Who do you think faces more problems with that though? Hint: It's not the people with insane timezone coverage and a generous amount of players and alts.

Look at who are telling you that these are OP. People that grief as a primary play style. This is not crying about them, this is warning beforehand just how ******* horribly we will be able to use these things. From the people that abuse literally everything that won't get you banned (and even things that will). The FW system that everyone warned could be manipulated, and then subsequently was to an obscene amount? Yeah those same people.

Warning you beforehand.


Then bring the shitstorm over our heads, I dare you. CCP said they are going to observe the effect they have in the game, so do your worse.

On the other hand, people are going to enjoy a lot having the chance to mess with the big guys in the hood (me included) If the price is reasonable, I would do it even losing money, just for giggles and fun.
TimNeilson
The Greater Goon
#892 - 2013-10-18 19:17:17 UTC
Zakhin Desver wrote:
Von Keigai wrote:
Jack Haydn wrote:
The information which is available through such an API is and should be a 1:1 reflection of the in-game state. Now you want to intentionally deliver wrong data, to work around the horrible design decisions you made around a new feature. That completely breaks the spirit of an API. If you want an API in your game, do it right and deliver accurate data. Otherwise just scrap it - either the API or the feature.


Hear hear. Yeah, I mean you, CCP.

Delaying information is fine. Not reporting information is fine. Lying is not fine.

That you want to lie is (or at least should be) a red flag about the way siphons work.


Well, they are not reporting you some information. The fact the you have a sink hole in your pos.



Er, no, it would be actively reporting false information, by saying "yeah boss, everything's fine!" when what's actually going on is "oh hey someone's stealing all my ****." There's nowhere else in the game where this would be considered acceptable behavior from the api, so I'm not sure why people think it's okay here. If this were something to do with the market order, character sheet, or wallet data people would be up in arms about it, but apparently because this only affects people that run poses it's apparently okay to just kick them in the balls, as if running a pos wasn't a big enough pain already. I'm also honestly amazed that more people aren't freaking out about this, as if you can't trust the data you're getting from the api you might as well not even have the api in the first place, because it means you still need to be logged in to check on things and manually update all the **** you would have just done an api pull for.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#893 - 2013-10-18 19:18:03 UTC
Falkor1984 wrote:
It seems you dont like Goons, which is something one might agree toLol. But this thing is not gonna hurt Goons or their friends: they are able to provide 24/7 checks on their towers. The problem lies with the posses of the smaller entities: they cannot provide round the clock coverage and will be subject to siphoning by multiple siphons for extended periods. So basically if you support this idea, you are actually supporting Goons and other bigass powerblocks.


It's also going to drive up the prices - especially short-term speculation when these things first hit.

This is gonna make bank for the CFC.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#894 - 2013-10-18 19:18:04 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
If a guy is carrying around 500 of these siphons, at about 10m a piece, he's an idiot with 5b of siphons in his cargo and we all get a good laugh.

People wont be stupid enough to carry 500 of these things at a time, totaling at 5b--what am i saying, ofc someone will, but they'll be retarrded and die and we all laugh

Uh, it's a blockade runner, they are nearly uncatchable

also 5b is a paltry sum

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#895 - 2013-10-18 19:19:18 UTC
TimNeilson wrote:
Zakhin Desver wrote:
Von Keigai wrote:
Jack Haydn wrote:
The information which is available through such an API is and should be a 1:1 reflection of the in-game state. Now you want to intentionally deliver wrong data, to work around the horrible design decisions you made around a new feature. That completely breaks the spirit of an API. If you want an API in your game, do it right and deliver accurate data. Otherwise just scrap it - either the API or the feature.


Hear hear. Yeah, I mean you, CCP.

Delaying information is fine. Not reporting information is fine. Lying is not fine.

That you want to lie is (or at least should be) a red flag about the way siphons work.


Well, they are not reporting you some information. The fact the you have a sink hole in your pos.



Er, no, it would be actively reporting false information, by saying "yeah boss, everything's fine!" when what's actually going on is "oh hey someone's stealing all my ****." There's nowhere else in the game where this would be considered acceptable behavior from the api, so I'm not sure why people think it's okay here. If this were something to do with the market order, character sheet, or wallet data people would be up in arms about it, but apparently because this only affects people that run poses it's apparently okay to just kick them in the balls, as if running a pos wasn't a big enough pain already. I'm also honestly amazed that more people aren't freaking out about this, as if you can't trust the data you're getting from the api you might as well not even have the api in the first place, because it means you still need to be logged in to check on things and manually update all the **** you would have just done an api pull for.


Better having an API that sometimes lies to you and makes you watch your business than not having an API at all. With an API, the whole syphon concept would be useless.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#896 - 2013-10-18 19:21:06 UTC
Kat Ayclism wrote:
Zakhin Desver wrote:
People here is talking about indys full of spyhons like if they were cheap as ****. Even 10 = 100m ,and you just need to log once in a while in your pos to pop 10m with one shot.

BTW, pretending that leaving 1 guy watching your poses while the rest are in PVP is too much for you, must be a joke. Are you telling me you have hundreds of players but leaving a few watching your poses is too much

I knew it, nullsec alliances are kids even compared with highsec dwellers. Grow a pair.

You think 100mil is a lot? You think 5 bil is a lot?

It's not just "1 guy," it's 1 guy watching EACH pos EVERY HOUR of the day. Who do you think faces more problems with that though? Hint: It's not the people with insane timezone coverage and a generous amount of players and alts.

Look at who are telling you that these are OP. People that grief as a primary play style. This is not crying about them, this is warning beforehand just how ******* horribly we will be able to use these things. From the people that abuse literally everything that won't get you banned (and even things that will). The FW system that everyone warned could be manipulated, and then subsequently was to an obscene amount? Yeah those same people.

Warning you beforehand.

Oh?

I see the goons have gotten into his head. Don't let them spin you around guys, this is a great thing and these posts are goon tears, not warnings.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Zircon Dasher
#897 - 2013-10-18 19:22:01 UTC
It certainly is a good thing that nobody has alts that sit inside the shields all 23/7....

And even if that were false, it definitely is a good thing that there is nothing like a live stream capability available that said alts could broadcast....

And even if THAT were false, it surely is ok because there is no way for a separate automated system to send out a RL tweet/email if it 'reads' something from the broadcast.......

And even if ALL that were false, it is surely ok because nobody in EVE bends rules even if they can't be caught......

I sure am glad that EVE players are so honor driven. Otherwise the "no alert when siphoning occurs" feature could be bypassed by any player/group with a craptop and an alt.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Von Keigai
#898 - 2013-10-18 19:22:03 UTC
Here is how I would like to see siphons work. The goal is to synchronize knowledge of loot, to promote fights.

First, the connection to the player who deploys the structure should be optional. There should be two launch options: "launch unowned", and "launch for me". There is only one difference in behavior: notification. "Launch unowned" would allow people to sneakily awox their own blues without requiring an alt. Mwahaha.

Stealing is no longer per tick. And it is not small amounts each hour. Instead the siphon activates and steals on average once per day. When this time comes is random. It is not related to the tick. This means there is on average no timezone advantage either to the thief or the owner. Neither can know when a theft can be pulled off.

When the siphon activates, it should steal a day's worth of stuff. That is, a chunk 24x as large as now. Then it resets itself, with a random amount of time from 4 to 44 hours. Notification of the theft is always sent to the POS owner. It is sent to the siphon launcher if he "launched for me", but not otherwise.

vonkeigai.blogspot.com
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#899 - 2013-10-18 19:22:59 UTC
Querns wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
If a guy is carrying around 500 of these siphons, at about 10m a piece, he's an idiot with 5b of siphons in his cargo and we all get a good laugh.

People wont be stupid enough to carry 500 of these things at a time, totaling at 5b--what am i saying, ofc someone will, but they'll be retarrded and die and we all laugh

Uh, it's a blockade runner, they are nearly uncatchable

also 5b is a paltry sum

Besides you'll only catch something like a covops with a covert cyno anyway.

Who has the ability to covert bridge tons of 20m3 siphons about? Oh I don't know, who was covert bridging tons of SBUs about


These are of course goon tears

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Southern Kros
LOW SEC MINING
#900 - 2013-10-18 19:23:19 UTC
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Southern Kros wrote:
I have no love for Goons nor any of the major alliances. As a solo / small corporation player they burn Jita, gank you and other wise **** you off. They don't care so why should I.

I do however love this idea and I plan to make lots of these wee beasties. I don't really care if they get blown up after 10 mins or 24hrs. I am doing it for ***** and giggles pure and simple.

If I make any ISK I will be delighted but just getting back at some of those tossers in Alliances, especially goons will make my day just that little sweeter.

Goons, your moon goo is all mine.


Sexy.

Oh, I thought you said man goo.


You mistake me for a goon and their love of Man Goo.