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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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Arrendis
TK Corp
#841 - 2013-10-18 17:29:25 UTC
Helicity Boson wrote:
ITT: Goons trying to prevent a tool being released in a form which will allow them to endlessly grief others. Others write it off as Goon tears in their ignorance.

This is a peculiar thread indeed.


Looks pretty normal to me.
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#842 - 2013-10-18 17:29:43 UTC
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
It's critical that the moment you set up the siphon, resources begin to be irrecoverably lost.

In fact, when t fills up, it should just jetcan the stuff and start filling up. Of course after 2 hours the jetcan goes poof. Remember the siphon could be emptied by anyone anyway.


I think it should work like the loot piñata in data/relic sites, another really fun game mechanic CCP thought of all by themselves!


How do you expect that a small group of players can loot multiple containers under POS' guns?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#843 - 2013-10-18 17:31:13 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Helicity Boson wrote:
ITT: Goons trying to prevent a tool being released in a form which will allow them to endlessly grief others. Others write it off as Goon tears in their ignorance.

This is a peculiar thread indeed.


Looks pretty normal to me.

This will be GREAT

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#844 - 2013-10-18 17:33:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Zakhin Desver
xttz wrote:
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:
xttz wrote:
I

  • Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
  • When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
  • A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
  • The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.




I don't agree. Waste should (and logically do) occur during the syphon action and not after. With your idea, if you just destroy the syphon without empty it before, there is no waste at all since all the content is returned in the silo with no others drawback.

+1 for the API idea though, it's seem to be the most logical way to do it.


The aim is to counteract the 'fire and forget' griefing aspect of this feature. Otherwise siphons would just be thrown around purely to cause loss, with no intention to ever come back. A fair system must involve both sides making a continuous effort to inflict damage on the other, otherwise it is unbalanced.

If people are so keen for starbase owners to make a constant effort to defend their holdings, why shouldn't attackers have to put in the same effort to hurt them? This implementation means agressors can inflict loss, but they have to stick around for more than 20 seconds to do it.


Other alliances can afford that, but individual players spending 10m just to cause damage with no intention to get the money back it's like suicide ganking empty freighters with catalysts.

Oh wait, could that imply that we are addressing the same problem differently if it affects the big guys in the neighbourhood? Why not nerfing suicide ganking of catalysts too? Oh yeah, the victims are goons, that's not fair..... CryCryCry
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#845 - 2013-10-18 17:33:38 UTC
Zakhin Desver wrote:
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
It's critical that the moment you set up the siphon, resources begin to be irrecoverably lost.

In fact, when t fills up, it should just jetcan the stuff and start filling up. Of course after 2 hours the jetcan goes poof. Remember the siphon could be emptied by anyone anyway.


I think it should work like the loot piñata in data/relic sites, another really fun game mechanic CCP thought of all by themselves!


How do you expect that a small group of players can loot multiple containers under POS' guns?


warp to container, loot container, warp away

a POS takes a loooooong time to actually react and log a player
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#846 - 2013-10-18 17:37:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Zakhin Desver
Gilbaron wrote:
Zakhin Desver wrote:
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
It's critical that the moment you set up the siphon, resources begin to be irrecoverably lost.

In fact, when t fills up, it should just jetcan the stuff and start filling up. Of course after 2 hours the jetcan goes poof. Remember the siphon could be emptied by anyone anyway.


I think it should work like the loot piñata in data/relic sites, another really fun game mechanic CCP thought of all by themselves!


How do you expect that a small group of players can loot multiple containers under POS' guns?


warp to container, loot container, warp away

a POS takes a loooooong time to actually react and log a player


Unless you plan to use fake cans like in the hacking minigame, I see no reason to do it differently than a regular can. Tractor beaming those little containers will give enough time to the POS, because you can only tractor beam one each time

PS Try it yourself with the minigame, compare the time you need to loot the cans and then warp out.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#847 - 2013-10-18 17:37:25 UTC
if the siphon unit is destroyed before the first tick is there any lost moon goo? or does the siphon only take after one cycle?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#848 - 2013-10-18 17:38:50 UTC
Krios Ahzek wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Zappity wrote:

Tell me, what would the public goon response be to a change that was good for smaller groups but bad for CFC?


Good question. Got an example of a change that a group of 50, 100, 500, or 1,000 can make use of that a group of 30,000 can't make use of more effectively?


There's really nothing that accomplishes this except giving ships in a fleet stacking penalties to EHP and damage, which would be completely insane and dumb.


Line-of-sight shooting only. Lol

Not just because only a few people at the edge of a large blob could shoot, but because whenever the blob formed up, the server would just melt.
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#849 - 2013-10-18 17:39:24 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
if the siphon unit is destroyed before the first tick is there any lost moon goo? or does the siphon only take after one cycle?


It will be fair to need at least 1 cycle
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#850 - 2013-10-18 17:40:18 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Zakhin Desver wrote:
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
It's critical that the moment you set up the siphon, resources begin to be irrecoverably lost.

In fact, when t fills up, it should just jetcan the stuff and start filling up. Of course after 2 hours the jetcan goes poof. Remember the siphon could be emptied by anyone anyway.


I think it should work like the loot piñata in data/relic sites, another really fun game mechanic CCP thought of all by themselves!


How do you expect that a small group of players can loot multiple containers under POS' guns?


warp to container, loot container, warp away

a POS takes a loooooong time to actually react and log a player

um, they were referring to the hacking minigame..

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#851 - 2013-10-18 17:42:36 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Krios Ahzek wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Zappity wrote:

Tell me, what would the public goon response be to a change that was good for smaller groups but bad for CFC?


Good question. Got an example of a change that a group of 50, 100, 500, or 1,000 can make use of that a group of 30,000 can't make use of more effectively?


There's really nothing that accomplishes this except giving ships in a fleet stacking penalties to EHP and damage, which would be completely insane and dumb.


Line-of-sight shooting only. Lol

Not just because only a few people at the edge of a large blob could shoot, but because whenever the blob formed up, the server would just melt.

Making it easier for us to 10% tidi every single fight... i like it

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Benjamin Hamburg
Chaos.Theory
#852 - 2013-10-18 17:43:00 UTC
mynnna wrote:


The drawback ought to come because you're out to steal my stuff, not because of some automated system that punishes me for not monitoring the POS 24/7. If the contents of the silo are still there by the time I come to get it, either you left and may never have had intent to steal my stuff in the first place, or I beat you in ~~~honourable space combat~~~ when you were defending it to get my stuff back.


The waste factor isn't a punishing system, but an incentive to react faster, cause you know that even if you have the number superiority and will win that ~~~honourable space combat~~~ there will be a loss that depend on your reaction time. Taking that into acocunt, the tool become a great thing to provoke fight. So you aren't punished for not monitoring your POS, but you are actually punished for not taking action against the thieves. Which goes in total adequation with what EVE is all about.
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#853 - 2013-10-18 17:46:25 UTC
Zakhin Desver wrote:
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
It's critical that the moment you set up the siphon, resources begin to be irrecoverably lost.

In fact, when t fills up, it should just jetcan the stuff and start filling up. Of course after 2 hours the jetcan goes poof. Remember the siphon could be emptied by anyone anyway.


I think it should work like the loot piñata in data/relic sites, another really fun game mechanic CCP thought of all by themselves!


How do you expect that a small group of players can loot multiple containers under POS' guns?


It's a joke, son. /foghorn
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#854 - 2013-10-18 17:48:50 UTC
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:
mynnna wrote:


The drawback ought to come because you're out to steal my stuff, not because of some automated system that punishes me for not monitoring the POS 24/7. If the contents of the silo are still there by the time I come to get it, either you left and may never have had intent to steal my stuff in the first place, or I beat you in ~~~honourable space combat~~~ when you were defending it to get my stuff back.


The waste factor isn't a punishing system, but an incentive to react faster, cause you know that even if you have the number superiority and will win that ~~~honourable space combat~~~ there will be a loss that depend on your reaction time. Taking that into acocunt, the tool become a great thing to provoke fight. So you aren't punished for not monitoring your POS, but you are actually punished for not taking action against the thieves. Which goes in total adequation with what EVE is all about.

A 10m ISK, 100k EHP module is not worth fighting over for either party

If the siphonhaver logs on and finds his shit destroyed, welp, time to anchor another one from the 500 he has kicking around inside his blockade runner

If the poshaver logs on and finds his shit burgled, welp, time to assume control of the pos guns and shoot a single laser at the siphon until it goes away

The very nature of the interactions dissuades any actual interaction between siphonhaver and poshaver because erecting the siphon, scooping from the siphon, and destroying the siphon can all be done in complete safety

This is why things that actually matter like SBUs and POSes themselves and sov structures have things like timers and gobs of EHP

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#855 - 2013-10-18 17:50:07 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:
mynnna wrote:


The drawback ought to come because you're out to steal my stuff, not because of some automated system that punishes me for not monitoring the POS 24/7. If the contents of the silo are still there by the time I come to get it, either you left and may never have had intent to steal my stuff in the first place, or I beat you in ~~~honourable space combat~~~ when you were defending it to get my stuff back.


The waste factor isn't a punishing system, but an incentive to react faster, cause you know that even if you have the number superiority and will win that ~~~honourable space combat~~~ there will be a loss that depend on your reaction time. Taking that into acocunt, the tool become a great thing to provoke fight. So you aren't punished for not monitoring your POS, but you are actually punished for not taking action against the thieves. Which goes in total adequation with what EVE is all about.


Nothing I can possibly do can allow me to "react faster" if I'm a USTZ corp and someone in AUTZ drops a siphon on my pos just after downtime, or whatever suitable combo of times reverses the situation. This is still the case if 100% of the loss comes through player action, but it requires that you are out to actually steal from me to happen, not to just come by and spam a bunch with no intent to return. It's a tremendous difference.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#856 - 2013-10-18 17:53:37 UTC
Incidentally

a nice way to even up the skill requirements for siphonhavers vs poshavers is to require Anchoring 5 for the siphon :sun:

I mean, it deploys, anchors, and onlines all by itself, surely one needs to spend much time in supplication and introspection to pull that off

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#857 - 2013-10-18 17:54:07 UTC
CCP Legion wrote:
Once this is out we will be keeping an eye on how players use it, both via feedback here and metrics that we gather. We can then rebalance it accordingly to make sure it is not completely unbalanced or if it is used as a pure griefing tool for example. There are a lot of values which we can tweak relatively easily as required.


As is, these stand to completely shut down T2 production. They are cheap, laughably cheap, and the fact that they stack can shut down a pos completely. Combined with no notification? It's just too much.

Tone them down somewhat.

Make a skill for how many you can deploy. "Station Siphoning", or whatever. 1 per skill rank can be active.

Then, make a skill that delays the notification of the owner when the siphon is activated. 30 or 60 minutes per rank, whichever fits best. If you can outright tell the API to lie, this should be within reason.

Please note, I do not have or use a POS (outside of a wormhole anyway), nor do I moon mine, or any other such.

What I am, on the other hand, is rubbing my hands with glee at the sheer amount of grief I could inflict with these as is. Given timezone shenanigans, I can shut down system after system with myself and a few buddies/alts, even if you cap me at 5 per character.

Remember, folks. What one person can do, a thousand can do a thousand times better.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#858 - 2013-10-18 17:54:13 UTC
Zakhin Desver wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
if the siphon unit is destroyed before the first tick is there any lost moon goo? or does the siphon only take after one cycle?


It will be fair to need at least 1 cycle


i would think so if you are on the ball then you can make sure there is no loss of goo.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#859 - 2013-10-18 17:56:33 UTC
Zakhin Desver wrote:
Trying to get enough nerfs to the module so you don't lose your moongoo superiority? Oh you....

Wastage must exists, destroying resources from the game is a good sink for money printers. Without waste factor, only small alliances with not enough numbers will be harmed. This expansion is supposed to empower the weak, not to settle the superiority of the powerful.


I see you missed the part where waste increases the longer you wait to empty it... so if all you want to do is grief, just leave it for the pos owner to empty daily. If you're a little guy who's active and looking to make bank off of this, you empty your siphons as often as you can.

About the only change I'd make is explicitly saying that the amount put back into the silos when the siphon gets destroyed is subject to the same scaling waste issue that emptying the siphon is. That way you reward the more alert and active defenders, too.
Alner Greyl
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#860 - 2013-10-18 18:01:05 UTC
Zakhin Desver wrote:
Alner Greyl wrote:
Looks like a not funny joke.

May be it's cool for expensive moons. But what about common moons? For example. I need to mine something very cheap because I need for my reactions. So some1 will need 10 mil to buy a siphon and take my moon mats. So without my online 24 hours a day I can't save even my cheap moons? And I'll need to offline all my pos - really cool situation.

I don't want to spend 24 hours in game to protect pos from siphons.
And yeah, CCP go on with cloak afk ships. You are making everything to play EVE in cloak. What? Most of this siphons will be installed with cloak ships. We can't have a defence from cloak ship and you are adding more weapons to them. What?

My post looks like a carebear crying, but it's my time and I hate cloak wars. It makes fun only for 1 side who is in cloak and have a big cargo.


POS -> Corporate assets, not personal

Seriously, you don't know how to decloak and trap a ship with your pos, bubbles and some cans? Go to wormhole space to see it yourself please.


Are you flying on cloak ships? I read your answer and i'm sure that it's your main ship :)
I know how to decloak, how to catch e.t.c. but it won't help if you are for example EU TZ and your new cloaky friend is US TZ.
Plus I prefer not cloak EVE :)