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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#821 - 2013-10-18 16:52:33 UTC
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:
xttz wrote:
I

  • Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
  • When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
  • A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
  • The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.




I don't agree. Waste should (and logically do) occur during the syphon action and not after. With your idea, if you just destroy the syphon without empty it before, there is no waste at all since all the content is returned in the silo with no others drawback.

+1 for the API idea though, it's seem to be the most logical way to do it.

Simply treat exploding like an empty command then. But the stuff goes nowhere. (or in a jetcan I suppose, AFTER waste)

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
TZeer
BURN EDEN
No Therapy
#822 - 2013-10-18 16:52:55 UTC
Oh the tears the tears!!

Brings a glee on my face.

Boho, you actually have to live in your space where you have moons. Oh the cruelty....


LOL!!
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#823 - 2013-10-18 16:53:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
It's critical that the moment you set up the siphon, resources begin to be irrecoverably lost.

In fact, when t fills up, it should just jetcan the stuff and start filling up. Of course after 2 hours the jetcan goes poof. Remember the siphon could be emptied by anyone anyway.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#824 - 2013-10-18 16:53:41 UTC
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:
xttz wrote:
I

  • Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
  • When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
  • A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
  • The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.




I don't agree. Waste should (and logically do) occur during the syphon action and not after. With your idea, if you just destroy the syphon without empty it before, there is no waste at all since all the content is returned in the silo with no others drawback.

+1 for the API idea though, it's seem to be the most logical way to do it.




I see the API as a D-Scan with range enough to cover the entire universe. "Let me check the API, OH, somebody is leeching moongoo from 10 jumps away, better to remove that **** from my POS, thankfully I don't have to patrol my 20 POS continuously"
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#825 - 2013-10-18 16:55:58 UTC
Alner Greyl wrote:
Looks like a not funny joke.

May be it's cool for expensive moons. But what about common moons? For example. I need to mine something very cheap because I need for my reactions. So some1 will need 10 mil to buy a siphon and take my moon mats. So without my online 24 hours a day I can't save even my cheap moons? And I'll need to offline all my pos - really cool situation.

I don't want to spend 24 hours in game to protect pos from siphons.
And yeah, CCP go on with cloak afk ships. You are making everything to play EVE in cloak. What? Most of this siphons will be installed with cloak ships. We can't have a defence from cloak ship and you are adding more weapons to them. What?

My post looks like a carebear crying, but it's my time and I hate cloak wars. It makes fun only for 1 side who is in cloak and have a big cargo.


POS -> Corporate assets, not personal

Seriously, you don't know how to decloak and trap a ship with your pos, bubbles and some cans? Go to wormhole space to see it yourself please.
Simrod
RED-SUPREME
#826 - 2013-10-18 16:56:48 UTC
A pos owner will now start mining some worthless stuff of the moos if its there and react the valuable stuff imediately so it wont be syphoned.
Tthe syphons go for the raw useless moon goo first ..
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#827 - 2013-10-18 16:57:18 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:
xttz wrote:
I

  • Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
  • When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
  • A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
  • The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.




I don't agree. Waste should (and logically do) occur during the syphon action and not after. With your idea, if you just destroy the syphon without empty it before, there is no waste at all since all the content is returned in the silo with no others drawback.

+1 for the API idea though, it's seem to be the most logical way to do it.




The drawback ought to come because you're out to steal my stuff, not because of some automated system that punishes me for not monitoring the POS 24/7. If the contents of the silo are still there by the time I come to get it, either you left and may never have had intent to steal my stuff in the first place, or I beat you in ~~~honourable space combat~~~ when you were defending it to get my stuff back.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#828 - 2013-10-18 16:58:26 UTC
Zakhin Desver wrote:
thankfully I don't have to patrol my 20 POS continuously"

Thankfully I don't have to waste my time flying from A to B to C every hour just to see that everything is okay and can focus on fighting people (you know, the actual fun part of EVE) when they try to steal from me.

Oh wait, it would work like that if the implementation made sense.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#829 - 2013-10-18 17:00:13 UTC
TZeer wrote:
Oh the tears the tears!!

Brings a glee on my face.

Boho, you actually have to live in your space where you have moons. Oh the cruelty....


LOL!!

Uh

did you just denigrate someone for not "living in their space"

while being in one of the most icebergtastic nullsec alliances in the game

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#830 - 2013-10-18 17:00:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Zakhin Desver
mynnna wrote:
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:
xttz wrote:
I

  • Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
  • When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
  • A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
  • The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.




I don't agree. Waste should (and logically do) occur during the syphon action and not after. With your idea, if you just destroy the syphon without empty it before, there is no waste at all since all the content is returned in the silo with no others drawback.

+1 for the API idea though, it's seem to be the most logical way to do it.




The drawback ought to come because you're out to steal my stuff, not because of some automated system that punishes me for not monitoring the POS 24/7. If the contents of the silo are still there by the time I come to get it, either you left and may never have had intent to steal my stuff in the first place, or I beat you in ~~~honourable space combat~~~ when you were defending it to get my stuff back.


Honourable space combat? I guess we have to redefine that word. Specially since the battle will never be even. On the other hand, forcing players to check their POS will even things. The powerful is strong but static, the weak is stealthy and puny. If you make the weak only puny.... well Bear


Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Zakhin Desver wrote:
thankfully I don't have to patrol my 20 POS continuously"

Thankfully I don't have to waste my time flying from A to B to C every hour just to see that everything is okay and can focus on fighting people (you know, the actual fun part of EVE) when they try to steal from me.

Oh wait, it would work like that if the implementation made sense.



So you want to own 20 POS, do PVP and own everybody in the universe.... Everything at the same time. That makes sense
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#831 - 2013-10-18 17:03:12 UTC
Nice work CCP! Pity we did not have those during tech era, but they will be useful even today, especially as some r64 are going at almost half the price of thech before OTEC creation. Big smile

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#832 - 2013-10-18 17:06:52 UTC
Querns wrote:
TZeer wrote:
Oh the tears the tears!!

Brings a glee on my face.

Boho, you actually have to live in your space where you have moons. Oh the cruelty....


LOL!!

Uh

did you just denigrate someone for not "living in their space"

while being in one of the most icebergtastic nullsec alliances in the game

Heh...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#833 - 2013-10-18 17:07:35 UTC
Sofia Wolf wrote:
Nice work CCP! Pity we did not have those during tech era, but they will be useful even today, especially as some r64 are going at almost half the price of thech before OTEC creation. Big smile


BTW, I don't think the price of tech II will be so affected as some preachers of the apocalypse are announcing here. The wastage and the losses of material hauling towards Jita will affect it, yes, but the rest will be in the central trade hub one way or the other.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#834 - 2013-10-18 17:08:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Sofia Wolf wrote:
Nice work CCP! Pity we did not have those during tech era, but they will be useful even today, especially as some r64 are going at almost half the price of thech before OTEC creation. Big smile

Would've been handy to toss those on all of PL's tech, to be sure.

On npc corp alts doubtless

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Arrendis
TK Corp
#835 - 2013-10-18 17:21:39 UTC
Zappity wrote:

Tell me, what would the public goon response be to a change that was good for smaller groups but bad for CFC?


Good question. Got an example of a change that a group of 50, 100, 500, or 1,000 can make use of that a group of 30,000 can't make use of more effectively?
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#836 - 2013-10-18 17:23:37 UTC
Querns wrote:
TZeer wrote:
Oh the tears the tears!!

Brings a glee on my face.

Boho, you actually have to live in your space where you have moons. Oh the cruelty....


LOL!!

Uh

did you just denigrate someone for not "living in their space"

while being in one of the most icebergtastic nullsec alliances in the game


Honestly, though, if somebody doesn't make this same dumbshit post on every page, I will be disappointed, so good on you, ironic NCdot guy.
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#837 - 2013-10-18 17:23:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Krios Ahzek
Arrendis wrote:
Zappity wrote:

Tell me, what would the public goon response be to a change that was good for smaller groups but bad for CFC?


Good question. Got an example of a change that a group of 50, 100, 500, or 1,000 can make use of that a group of 30,000 can't make use of more effectively?


There's really nothing that accomplishes this except giving ships in a fleet stacking penalties to EHP and damage, which would be completely insane and dumb.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#838 - 2013-10-18 17:26:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Zakhin Desver
Arrendis wrote:
Zappity wrote:

Tell me, what would the public goon response be to a change that was good for smaller groups but bad for CFC?


Good question. Got an example of a change that a group of 50, 100, 500, or 1,000 can make use of that a group of 30,000 can't make use of more effectively?


There's a little misunderstanding here. Maybe goons (or any other big alliance) can spam these syphons on posses of little alliances and all that. But the real little group of players usually don't own a territory, much less a POS (unless it is in wormhole space) Whatever the case, patrolling a single POS or one single system is much easier than doing the same all over a nullsec region. Can they lose moon materials or polymers like the big alliances? Yes and no. Yes, because there will be times when they are not watching (ie, at work, sleeping...), but it will be much easier for them to watch their only POS

Small alliances count as medium size group of players.
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#839 - 2013-10-18 17:28:14 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
It's critical that the moment you set up the siphon, resources begin to be irrecoverably lost.

In fact, when t fills up, it should just jetcan the stuff and start filling up. Of course after 2 hours the jetcan goes poof. Remember the siphon could be emptied by anyone anyway.


I think it should work like the loot piñata in data/relic sites, another really fun game mechanic CCP thought of all by themselves!
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#840 - 2013-10-18 17:29:14 UTC  |  Edited by: xttz
Benjamin Hamburg wrote:
xttz wrote:
I

  • Remove waste as it currently works, a single siphon pulls 50% of material from a silo each tick. Up to 2 siphons can be anchored per 'end of chain' module on grid. They will automatically leech from the one that is physically nearest to them.
  • When a siphon is destroyed, the full contents within are dropped back into the silo it originally came from.
  • A siphon is emptied by a ship by clicking an 'empty' option while within 5km. This ejects any materials inside into a jetcan, but deducts a certain amount of waste first (much like POCOs). A nearly-empty siphon will have zero waste, a full siphon has 90% waste.
  • The API reports the total contents of a silo plus any siphons leeching from it, meaning that it's only possible to detect loss if material is removed from the siphon.




I don't agree. Waste should (and logically do) occur during the syphon action and not after. With your idea, if you just destroy the syphon without empty it before, there is no waste at all since all the content is returned in the silo with no others drawback.

+1 for the API idea though, it's seem to be the most logical way to do it.


The aim is to counteract the 'fire and forget' griefing aspect of this feature. Otherwise siphons would just be thrown around purely to cause waste, with no intention for the owner to ever come back. A fair system must involve both sides making a continuous effort to inflict damage on the other, otherwise it is unbalanced.

If people are so keen for starbase owners to make a constant effort to defend their holdings, why shouldn't attackers have to put in the same effort to hurt them? This implementation means agressors can inflict loss, but they have to stick around for more than 20 seconds to do it.