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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#661 - 2013-10-18 11:23:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Bi-Mi Lansatha
CCP Falcon wrote:
...While the statistics and numbers are subject to change pending final balancing...

---Prices and material components are still being worked on, but should be in a ballpark of 10 million.---

---This will be a small version (20 m³), so carrying one, or even several, is not much of a constraint for most ships.---

---The stealing happens on the production cycles (once per hour).---


Caveat - I am not a Goon nor have I ever been involved in Moon Goo.

The price and size of the Mobile Siphon Unit are good (cheap and easily deployed), but the extraction time seems bad. The POS owners should be given an opportunity to take counter action, and it isn't really reasonable for them to be expected to be online 24 hours a day. Change the extraction times to something longer (24 hours?). Active Corps/Alliances should be able to sweep their major moons for MSUs during that period, while those that AFK will suffer.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#662 - 2013-10-18 11:26:03 UTC
Helicity Boson wrote:
The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.

Why? Because smart players will just fly around and loot Siphons placed by someone else and save themselves the 10m investment.


Wormhole reaction ones would be good. Plenty of afk POSes out there. I hope they come in 1.1.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#663 - 2013-10-18 11:26:32 UTC
Helicity Boson wrote:
The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.

Why? Because smart players will just fly around and loot Siphons placed by someone else and save themselves the 10m investment.

So what you're saying is that a bunch of players are going to put siphons on lots of moons and then lots of people are going to be flying around fighting each other for the loot?

That sounds like an excellent feature.

Nyan
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#664 - 2013-10-18 11:26:56 UTC
Did I hear Goons crying in my neighbourhood? Trollface.jpg

It's easy to say "adapt or die", until you have to adapt yourself. WTB Hypocrisy Twisted
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#665 - 2013-10-18 11:28:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Helicity Boson
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
Helicity Boson wrote:
The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.

Why? Because smart players will just fly around and loot Siphons placed by someone else and save themselves the 10m investment.

So what you're saying is that a bunch of players are going to put siphons on lots of moons and then lots of people are going to be flying around fighting each other for the loot?

That sounds like an excellent feature.


No... lots of people will fly cloaky haulers and nick the loot. And there will be no fighting, because there is a POS full of guns on grid which will indiscriminately blap ganker and gankee alike.

...and then no one will put up new siphons and the feature dies an ignoble death.
Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#666 - 2013-10-18 11:37:02 UTC
Helicity Boson wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
Helicity Boson wrote:
The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.

Why? Because smart players will just fly around and loot Siphons placed by someone else and save themselves the 10m investment.

So what you're saying is that a bunch of players are going to put siphons on lots of moons and then lots of people are going to be flying around fighting each other for the loot?

That sounds like an excellent feature.


No... lots of people will fly cloaky haulers and nick the loot. And there will be no fighting, because there is a POS full of guns on grid which will indiscriminately blap ganker and gankee alike.

...and then no one will put up new siphons and the feature dies an ignoble death.


Simple, we kill the batman

Come on, you can always go to another undefended and hardly visited nullsec to steal more moon goo
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#667 - 2013-10-18 11:53:10 UTC
This is totally unrelated, but my ADD forces me to tell everybody
that i have just realised why SoniClover capitalises the C in his name...

Awesome stuff, btw!
Callduron
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#668 - 2013-10-18 11:54:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Callduron
Zifrian wrote:
pmchem wrote:
For a moment, let us imagine the future equilibrium for this gameplay element:

Guy with cargo-expanded covert cloaking ship and a bunch of siphons is AFK cloaking in a system with a R32 or R64 moon. He un-AFKs at a random time once or twice a day, drops or scoops siphons. Meanwhile, random griefer with a bubble-immune fast-warp interceptor flies by a dozen moons dropping siphons, including this one.

POS owner has nothing to defeat AFK cloaking or interceptors. They detect unexpected silo levels as their real life schedule allows and log in an alt, gun the POS, and shoot the siphons. In the meantime he's lost all his goo production for a big chunk of the day because there were 8 siphons attached to the POS -- they're so cheap, they're just a fire-and-forget griefer tool. There's no 'timer' at which both forces must meet to determine the fate of the gameplay element, so it's entirely async and the two sides never interact in realtime.

Result: higher moon goo prices, more AFK cloaky alts (which honestly seems to be the sort of terrible gameplay CCP is encouraging these days), nobody particularly having fun unless you enjoy griefing (which, hey, it's EVE -- many do). But nobody is rewarded for spending time developing or living in a system ... only for random, short logins to push butan. It's poor gameplay.

Rubicon: burnt farms and salted fields.

Good point. Afk playing is getting to be really lame. This might make it worse :(


No it won't.

Currently a moon harvests all month with no player input. Nothing could make that worse short of being able to teleport the goo to Jita. Also for all moons are meant to be conflict drivers they rarely are as it's so prohibitively hard to get a fleet together capable of contesting a moon owned by a major bloc, eg Goons or PL.

When a siphon is placed that's a chance for a defender to decloak and point him. A defender in a stealth bomber could sit outside his pos all day holding thieves in place for the pos guns to kill.

When a siphon is in system it's content. People will scan them down, visit them empty them.

When a siphon is attacked it's content. Maybe the attacker has a hotdrop lined up for when the defenders send a couple of battleships to shoot down the silo.

Silos will draw attention to money moons. Just as people run a lot more hidden sites now that we see the red diamond flash when we enter a system so will people think about conquering a pos when our notice is drawn to the fact it's spewing out dyspro.

More defenders will undock to clear their space of silos. These people will inevitably tangle with roaming gangs. In fact roaming gangs can lay out silos as bait to draw defenders out of stations.

We're going to see a ton of extra fights generated over moon goo which is currently horribly boring. It's boring even to own money moons, just a chore. Changing it to something that needs to be defended and protected quite simply adds fights to the game.

And that adds up to more fun.

I write http://stabbedup.blogspot.co.uk/

I post on reddit as /u/callduron.
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#669 - 2013-10-18 11:55:03 UTC  |  Edited by: xttz
Lallante wrote:


Theres an infinite number of other scenarios. This will be interesting!


Scenario A

Null-sec alliances run around dropping cheap siphons on any r64 and r32 moons they don't control. They're rich enough to spam scores of cheap siphons per moon and not even care too much about collecting the contents.

R64 and R32 mineral supply drop off heavily, especially if some specific materials are focused on. R64 supply fluctuates between 25% and 75% of the current levels.
There are huge market shifts as T2 materials adjust to the reduced supply, resulting in doubled Tech 2 prices within a few days.

Eventually speculators run low on r64 material reserves and T2 prices continue to rise sharply after several months.

GoonSwarm engages in a series of market manipulation moves alongside Burn Jita-style events to ensure further disruption of the market. We'll probably even spam these on low-sec reaction farms solely to grief the owners.

The net result is very expensive T2 ships and mods, GoonSwarm gets richer, and a bunch of pubbies quit running reactions and whine to the forums about grrrrgoooons ruining the game.
Thus creating the next generation of posters who won't believe our warnings over CCP's next broken feature.

Scenario B

Just kidding, there are no other scenarios.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#670 - 2013-10-18 11:55:05 UTC
Oh and... couldn't you have chosen an even darker screenshot of it? /s
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#671 - 2013-10-18 11:55:08 UTC
In response to these siphons, the price of all moon goo has gone up.

Thanks everyone for even more free isk.
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#672 - 2013-10-18 11:55:24 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Lallante wrote:
Dear goons

Please never, ever, ever change.


New update on the siphon stats:
Harvest 30 pages of goon tears per day .


I never get tired of reading "lol goon tears!!!1" posts. You know, I don't pay a lot of attention to this dumb game, but I've seen this play out numerous times over the years exactly this way:

CCP: Smile Presenting new feature X!
Goons: Roll X is horribly unbalanced.
Pubbies: Lol Hahaha goonie tears goonie tears!!!!1
Goons: vSmilev Well okay then, we're going to exploit the hell out of X.
Pubbies: Cry Goons are exploiting X!
CCP: What? We're nerfing X.
Pubbies: Lol Hahaha goonie tears goonie tears!!!!1

I mean, y'all literally have the long term memory of that guy from Memento. Is it really any wonder that we have so little regard for the vast majority of you?


That is quite a naive comment when you actively cultivate your collective persona as griefers and scammers.

Tell me, what would the public goon response be to a change that was good for smaller groups but bad for CFC? Because whatever the truth, I guarantee that the vast majority of pubbies would say 'exactly the same'.


That is quite a dumb response when you consider that this has literally happened over and over in publicly accessible sites that you can still search and read.
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#673 - 2013-10-18 11:57:12 UTC
Zakhin Desver wrote:
Helicity Boson wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
Helicity Boson wrote:
The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.

Why? Because smart players will just fly around and loot Siphons placed by someone else and save themselves the 10m investment.

So what you're saying is that a bunch of players are going to put siphons on lots of moons and then lots of people are going to be flying around fighting each other for the loot?

That sounds like an excellent feature.


No... lots of people will fly cloaky haulers and nick the loot. And there will be no fighting, because there is a POS full of guns on grid which will indiscriminately blap ganker and gankee alike.

...and then no one will put up new siphons and the feature dies an ignoble death.


Simple, we kill the batman

Come on, you can always go to another undefended and hardly visited nullsec to steal more moon goo


See where I said "outside of null" ?

kthxbye
Callduron
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#674 - 2013-10-18 12:01:34 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Helicity Boson wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

Time to scrap moon mining then!


Moon mining is not, and has never been, a good kind of gameplay mechanic.


At least not while it's AFK passive income.

Moon mining should be something a player has to get into a ship and undock for.


If we see 2 siphons on every moon then it will be.

I write http://stabbedup.blogspot.co.uk/

I post on reddit as /u/callduron.
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#675 - 2013-10-18 12:05:16 UTC  |  Edited by: xttz
Helicity Boson wrote:
The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.


Helicity Boson wrote:

See where I said "outside of null" ?

kthxbye


We've been explicity telling you all over the last few pages that we're going to be spamming these things all over the map, including low-sec, solely to grief the owners. They're so cheap it's actually a more cost-effective method of griefing than suicide-ganking, which we currently sink billions of ISK a week into.

So yes, they are going to be used. Because they're the best griefing tool since Titan POS bumping, only this time they affect nearly everyone to some degree.
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#676 - 2013-10-18 12:08:38 UTC
xttz wrote:
Helicity Boson wrote:
The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.


Helicity Boson wrote:

See where I said "outside of null" ?

kthxbye


We've been explicity telling you over the last few pages that we're going to be spamming these things all over the map, including low-sec, solely to grief the owners. They're so cheap it's actually a more cost-effective method of griefing than suicide-ganking, which we currently sink billions of ISK a week into.

So yes, they are going to be used. Because they're the best griefing tool since Titan POS bumping, only this time they affect nearly everyone to some degree.


Feel absolutely free. If you had any idea who I was you'd know I celebrate this sort of thing. I will also gladly go around emptying the siphons you so generously put up for me. :)
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#677 - 2013-10-18 12:12:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Marzetti
Helicity Boson wrote:
xttz wrote:
Helicity Boson wrote:
The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.


Helicity Boson wrote:

See where I said "outside of null" ?

kthxbye


We've been explicity telling you over the last few pages that we're going to be spamming these things all over the map, including low-sec, solely to grief the owners. They're so cheap it's actually a more cost-effective method of griefing than suicide-ganking, which we currently sink billions of ISK a week into.

So yes, they are going to be used. Because they're the best griefing tool since Titan POS bumping, only this time they affect nearly everyone to some degree.


Feel absolutely free. If you had any idea who I was you'd know I celebrate this sort of thing. I will also gladly go around emptying the siphons you so generously put up for me. :)


I think you can consider it payment for the service you're providing by keeping our griefing tool running for another 24 hours.
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#678 - 2013-10-18 12:18:04 UTC
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Helicity Boson wrote:
xttz wrote:
Helicity Boson wrote:
The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.


Helicity Boson wrote:

See where I said "outside of null" ?

kthxbye


We've been explicity telling you over the last few pages that we're going to be spamming these things all over the map, including low-sec, solely to grief the owners. They're so cheap it's actually a more cost-effective method of griefing than suicide-ganking, which we currently sink billions of ISK a week into.

So yes, they are going to be used. Because they're the best griefing tool since Titan POS bumping, only this time they affect nearly everyone to some degree.


Feel absolutely free. If you had any idea who I was you'd know I celebrate this sort of thing. I will also gladly go around emptying the siphons you so generously put up for me. :)


I think you can consider it payment for the service you're providing by keeping our griefing tool running for another 24 hours.


I have a pretty good relationship with goons when it comes to griefing as you may recall :)

However my point stands, no entities outside of null will bother extensively putting them up because chances of a payoff are likely low.

If goons want to spend the investment to place them, and you certainly can as evidenced by your generous sponsoring of my last hulkageddon event, that's great for people like me.

Mechanically the system is bad of course, which is what you guys have been trying to say but the bears can't hear because they like to act like 3 year olds going "goon/pirate tears!" at every opportunity.

Perhaps if the material was not actually removed from the POS unless taken from the siphon, and returned if the siphon was destroyed it'd make a bit more sense... though I imagine the coding on that would be infernal.
Igor Nappi
Doomheim
#679 - 2013-10-18 12:22:10 UTC
I don't find it realistic for any single entity, not even the CFC, to seed these all over the universe and keep emptying the goo and replacing any destroyed ones for any sort of extended period. This would be a remarkable feat and I guess in this case it could be argued that the feature succeeded in providing a lot of content for a large group of players :)

Furthermore, I think that links must be removed from the game.
Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#680 - 2013-10-18 12:22:23 UTC
Kazanir wrote:
CCP Tuxford wrote:
Two step wrote:
Sounds pretty neat. One issue: Using the API, people can tell when stuff is missing from silos. Has this been thought about?


Yes we did. We do track how much is siphoned from what and where it would end up and the API then reports those numbers. It's a bit evil abusing the API in this way but I think it's for the good of the feature.


Having the asset API lie about the contents of silos is the wrong choice in 100% of cases. If you can't build a feature while returning accurate API data, then you need to design a better feature. I cannot believe anyone though that returning INACCURATE API DATA was ever an acceptable choice. Holy ******* ****.

Two step wrote:
I was talking about that you don't make it send notifications, but any large corp can have enough assets API keys to be able to detect siphoning within an hour.

Does the siphon show up in the lauching pilot's API as well?


The assets API doesn't work this way. It has a 6-hour cache timer which is shared across all corporation keys -- you can't make multiple corporate keys and have the assets API refresh more often.

sadly i would have to agree that having the api feedback lie to you is the wrong way to do it