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[Rubicon] Sisters of EVE faction ships

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1761 - 2013-10-17 21:35:43 UTC
William Clarque wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
well they need to lose a slot from somewhere ..

Well it has been brought up and the initial post does suggest that pirate ships are exempt from the slot loss.


but navy aren't .. that makes no sense at all


It makes perfect sense. Pirate faction ships are meta 8. Navy faction ships are only meta 7.



mm.. im not buying it they should be treated equally

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
William Clarque
Free Traders
#1762 - 2013-10-17 21:46:24 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
William Clarque wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
well they need to lose a slot from somewhere ..

Well it has been brought up and the initial post does suggest that pirate ships are exempt from the slot loss.


but navy aren't .. that makes no sense at all


It makes perfect sense. Pirate faction ships are meta 8. Navy faction ships are only meta 7.



mm.. im not buying it they should be treated equally


Whether you're buying it or not, it's simply the way the game is structured. Whether you're talking about ships or modules, higher meta level items are superior to lower meta level items.
Reiisha
#1763 - 2013-10-17 21:54:11 UTC
Tzar Sinak wrote:
Actually, it is suppose to be an exploration ship. Drones happen to be a primary weapons system. Also the premise of the ship is to be far from home for along time thus the ability to carry replacement drones.

It is meant to be an exploration ship. A pirate faction exploration ship.


Quoting this since people seem to be forgetting about it. Lasers on it because they don't need ammo, at least nowhere near as much as other weapon systems. Drones because it doesnt get a weapon bonus. Large bay because it will be far from home for a long time.

I don't see the problem with this. The limiting factor will be availability - Despite the Cynabal being what it is i don't see gangs of 50 of them roaming lowsec all day long, or nullsec even, so there's no real problem. The ship is also meant to go solo, unlike most other ships, but it being a drone ship it's not exactly very useful in fleets.

The only people who might have a problem with this is people who solo in t1 frigates...

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1764 - 2013-10-17 23:07:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Quote:
well they need to lose a slot from somewhere
Well it has been brought up and the initial post does suggest that pirate ships are exempt from the slot loss.

but navy aren't .. that makes no sense at all

It makes perfect sense. Pirate faction ships are meta 8. Navy faction ships are only meta 7.


mm.. im not buying it they should be treated equally

Whether you're buying it or not, it's simply the way the game is structured. Whether you're talking about ships or modules, higher meta level items are superior to lower meta level items.


well this is part of the problem its just promoting power creep like the OP officer/deadspace mods ... i thought CCP were taking a different direction toward role based system across the board ....

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1765 - 2013-10-17 23:14:33 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Quote:
well they need to lose a slot from somewhere
Well it has been brought up and the initial post does suggest that pirate ships are exempt from the slot loss.

but navy aren't .. that makes no sense at all

It makes perfect sense. Pirate faction ships are meta 8. Navy faction ships are only meta 7.


mm.. im not buying it they should be treated equally

Whether you're buying it or not, it's simply the way the game is structured. Whether you're talking about ships or modules, higher meta level items are superior to lower meta level items.


well this is part of the problem its just promoting power creep like the OP officer/deadspace mods ... i thought CCP were taking a different direction toward role based system across the board ....

The gila, worm, and rattlesnake all have a full slot layout. In terms of raw DPS they are about equal. The Guristas ships could tank forever, these get covert ops.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1766 - 2013-10-17 23:26:10 UTC
Harvey James wrote:

well this is part of the problem its just promoting power creep like the OP officer/deadspace mods ... i thought CCP were taking a different direction toward role based system across the board ....

While true they were trying to avoid power creep, that doesn't mean all levels of an item become different but equal. Infact the often reposted image in this very thread has stated that there is an intentional power difference between certain ship types, including pirate being superior to navy faction. That in itself isn't the power creep they were avoiding anyways. Rather they have referenced the need to nerf mechanics that fell out of place compared to their peers, not because they weren't effectively equal in power at all levels.
Weasel Leblanc
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1767 - 2013-10-17 23:49:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Weasel Leblanc
CCP Rise wrote:
Astero

Role Bonus: 100% reduction in CPU requiement for cloaks
Role Bonus: 37.5% increase Scan Prob Strength (maybe this should be a rounder number? right now it follows the t1 bonus)
Role Bonus: +5 Virus strength for Relic and Data Analyzers

Can fit Cover Ops Cloaking devices

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
4% bonus to Armor Resists

Gallente Frigate Bonus:
20% bonus to drone hitpoints

Slot layout: 2H, 4M, 4L; 2 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 32 PWG, 170 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 540 / 600 / 600
Capacitor (amount) : 430
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 312 / 2.87 / 975000 / 3.88s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 37km / 620 / 6
Sensor strength: 13
Signature radius: 35
Cargo Capacity: 210


Stratios

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Energy Turret capacitor need
Role Bonus: 37.5% increase Scan Prob Strength (maybe this should be a rounder number? right now it follows the t1 bonus)
Role Bonus: +5 Virus strength for Relic and Data Analyzers

Can fit Cover Ops Cloaking devices

Amarr Cruiser Bonus:
4% bonus to Armor Resists

Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

Slot layout: 5H, 5M, 5L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 920 PWG, 400 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1950 / 2400 / 2450
Capacitor (amount) : 1700
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 182 / .47 / 9350000 / 6.09s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 500
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km / 275 / 7
Sensor strength: 20
Signature radius: 150
Cargo Capacity: 550

PICTURES (Sorry don't have in-client shots yet)

These are wonderful and sexy machines which I will gleefully pilot around... but since we don't know what racial resist baseline their armor uses, maybe you could add that to the first post? Little tidbits like that are useful for obsessive must-know-alls like myself and EFT warriors, if nothing else.

This post has been edited for clarification. And, yes, even T1 ships have minor variations in armor resists.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1768 - 2013-10-17 23:57:00 UTC
Weasel Leblanc wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Astero

Role Bonus: 100% reduction in CPU requiement for cloaks
Role Bonus: 37.5% increase Scan Prob Strength (maybe this should be a rounder number? right now it follows the t1 bonus)
Role Bonus: +5 Virus strength for Relic and Data Analyzers

Can fit Cover Ops Cloaking devices

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
4% bonus to Armor Resists

Gallente Frigate Bonus:
20% bonus to drone hitpoints

Slot layout: 2H, 4M, 4L; 2 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 32 PWG, 170 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 540 / 600 / 600
Capacitor (amount) : 430
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 312 / 2.87 / 975000 / 3.88s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 37km / 620 / 6
Sensor strength: 13
Signature radius: 35
Cargo Capacity: 210


Stratios

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in Energy Turret capacitor need
Role Bonus: 37.5% increase Scan Prob Strength (maybe this should be a rounder number? right now it follows the t1 bonus)
Role Bonus: +5 Virus strength for Relic and Data Analyzers

Can fit Cover Ops Cloaking devices

Amarr Cruiser Bonus:
4% bonus to Armor Resists

Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

Slot layout: 5H, 5M, 5L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 920 PWG, 400 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1950 / 2400 / 2450
Capacitor (amount) : 1700
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 182 / .47 / 9350000 / 6.09s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 500
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km / 275 / 7
Sensor strength: 20
Signature radius: 150
Cargo Capacity: 550

PICTURES (Sorry don't have in-client shots yet)

These are wonderful and sexy machines which I will gleefully pilot around... but since we don't know what racial resist baseline their armor uses, maybe you could add that to the first post? Little tidbits like that are useful for obsessive must-know-alls like myself and EFT warriors, if nothing else.

This post has been edited for clarification. And, yes, even T1 ships have minor variations in armor resists.


Gallente resist profile.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1769 - 2013-10-18 01:05:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Harvey James wrote:
William Clarque wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Well it has been brought up and the initial post does suggest that pirate ships are exempt from the slot loss.


but navy aren't .. that makes no sense at all


It makes perfect sense. Pirate faction ships are meta 8. Navy faction ships are only meta 7.



mm.. im not buying it they should be treated equally


I have to post this again, don't I..

The above link should address your concerns regarding Navy/Pirate balance.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1770 - 2013-10-18 10:53:00 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
William Clarque wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Well it has been brought up and the initial post does suggest that pirate ships are exempt from the slot loss.


but navy aren't .. that makes no sense at all


It makes perfect sense. Pirate faction ships are meta 8. Navy faction ships are only meta 7.



mm.. im not buying it they should be treated equally


I have to post this again, don't I..

The above link should address your concerns regarding Navy/Pirate balance.


Improvement on T2 yes but in what direction is key, if they are exploration ships should they be better at exploration then yes but should they be as strong as or stronger than Tech 2 specialised combat vessels then possibly no.

There is more to balancing than slots, maybe remove a slot but this may just cause a further stack up of role bonuses.

While I concur with some earlier posts that the cruiser is very strong and perhaps could be shifted more towards lasers, 100% damage and two turrets would enable a focus on lasers while allowing a fittings reduction than may limit some extreme fits and have the benefit of less ammo consumption. The cruiser is strong but the medium ship class field is quite competitive and there are plenty of cruiser/battlecruiser class ships that will give this a run for its money.

It is the frigate that concerns me, again as an exploration ship how strong should it be?

It is stronger combat wise than most navy faction/pirate frigates, anything short of an assault ship is going to struggle engaging this ship and even then that fight will be highly fitting dependant, plus with its drone bay and hitpoint bonus it’s drones swill be very difficult to counter.

DPS is a little low but this tanks a bit like a dual rep Incursus (282dps with OH) with added web. This is just an example but I can see shield fits hitting over 200dps with 7.5k ehp and dual web scram range kiter fits being very effective.

[Astero, PVP Dual Rep]
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Small Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II

1MN Afterburner II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 200

Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Small Anti-Explosive Pump I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Hobgoblin II x5
Warrior II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5

It may be worth considering moving a low to a high, dropping a turret or maybe adjusting the drone bandwidth.
PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#1771 - 2013-10-18 11:55:52 UTC  |  Edited by: PopeUrban
I think the drone bonuses are really DPS friendly, but to be attractive at all as exploration platforms these are going to need better hack bonuses.

That laser cap bonus is kinda derpy already, and these boats have respectable drone damage output without the bonus... so how about swapping it for a more unique skill bonus, e.g.

Archaeology: +5 to relic analyzer strength
Hacking: +5 to data analyzer strength

Failing that, release some +hacking low modules alongside it (The new +scanning modules in mids make a nice compliment) that would allow pilots to sacrifice some tank (since it doesn't have highs to sacrifice) for more respectable hack output. This would also be interesting in its ability to ghetto-fit other ships for doing exploration, and more fitting options is always a good thing.

This would make it more skill intensive to get the same hacking output as its t1 brethren, and the t1s would still be superior scanners out of the box, while these ships would be better rounded due to combat bonuses, but less adept at scanning.

I feel like this would make it a lot more attractive as a general purpose exploration ship with some bite.

Keep the amarr armor bonus and gallente drone bonus, but leave off the turret weapon bonuses altogether. It's already strong in terms of damage with out it, and there's no funcional reason it should be limited when the forerunner SOE ship, the gnosis was so open ended.

I feel like weapon neutrality and drone bonuses should really remain the SOE "thing" while different ship models/classes might have ancillary bonuses from the non-weapon side of faction skills. After all isn't rubicon and beyond about moving AWAY from empire doctrines and limitations?
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1772 - 2013-10-18 12:42:15 UTC
Alticus C Bear wrote:
Improvement on T2 yes but in what direction is key, if they are exploration ships should they be better at exploration then yes but should they be as strong as or stronger than Tech 2 specialised combat vessels then possibly no.

There is more to balancing than slots, maybe remove a slot but this may just cause a further stack up of role bonuses.

While I concur with some earlier posts that the cruiser is very strong and perhaps could be shifted more towards lasers, 100% damage and two turrets would enable a focus on lasers while allowing a fittings reduction than may limit some extreme fits and have the benefit of less ammo consumption. The cruiser is strong but the medium ship class field is quite competitive and there are plenty of cruiser/battlecruiser class ships that will give this a run for its money.

It is the frigate that concerns me, again as an exploration ship how strong should it be?

It is stronger combat wise than most navy faction/pirate frigates, anything short of an assault ship is going to struggle engaging this ship and even then that fight will be highly fitting dependant, plus with its drone bay and hitpoint bonus it’s drones swill be very difficult to counter.

DPS is a little low but this tanks a bit like a dual rep Incursus (282dps with OH) with added web. This is just an example but I can see shield fits hitting over 200dps with 7.5k ehp and dual web scram range kiter fits being very effective.

[Astero, PVP Dual Rep]
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Small Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II

1MN Afterburner II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 200

Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Small Anti-Explosive Pump I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I

Hobgoblin II x5
Warrior II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5

It may be worth considering moving a low to a high, dropping a turret or maybe adjusting the drone bandwidth.

Indeed it's strong, but any destroyer would take care of it fastly. As for T1 frigates, navy ones should make a tough fight for the Astero. Comet, Hookbill and Slicer all have the same or more damage at scram range and should be able to break its tank ; and I think pirate frigates would all make a short work of it (even the Worm in fact).

In fact, the frigate will be very good for duels because of good tank and very good control, but not so much otherwise and even vulnerable to renforcements because of the lack of dps.
Coyote Laughing
#1773 - 2013-10-18 13:14:52 UTC
Coyote Laughing wrote:
Dislike.

Training for a cov ops hull is difficult - this has the smell of Pay to Win and the incense of Amarr loving scum all over it.


Okay, so I was more than a little harsh - but at the time I wasn't sure if this was going to be a "limited" or special edition ship, not an LP store purchase.

In any case, could I suggest instead some kind of reduction in the severity of awakened sleepers, rather than an easy train cov ops hull ?

l8r \o/
Markku Laaksonen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1774 - 2013-10-18 14:09:28 UTC
(I'm super stoked for these ships)

Just for a technical clarification, will these ships be classified Navy ships or Pirate ships?

I would assume Pirate since they require two racial ship command skills to fly, but then SoE aren't necessarily a piratical group, are they? I ask because the general pattern is that Pirate ships outperform Navy ships in combat.

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Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#1775 - 2013-10-18 15:00:05 UTC
Power creep is bad, don't release this overpowered ships.

The Tears Must Flow
Markku Laaksonen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1776 - 2013-10-18 15:39:40 UTC
The Tears Must Flow, release this overpowered ships for Vaju Enki's Tears.

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Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#1777 - 2013-10-18 15:51:13 UTC
Markku Laaksonen wrote:
The Tears Must Flow, release this overpowered ships for Vaju Enki's Tears.


I don't think you understand, it's not my tears that will flow if this ships are released like this, i will only fly this two ships, no point in flying anything else.

Powercreep is bad in sandbox mmo-rpg games, this is not a themepark game.

The Tears Must Flow
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1778 - 2013-10-18 16:01:01 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Markku Laaksonen wrote:
The Tears Must Flow, release this overpowered ships for Vaju Enki's Tears.


I don't think you understand, it's not my tears that will flow if this ships are released like this, i will only fly this two ships, no point in flying anything else.

Powercreep is bad in sandbox mmo-rpg games, this is not a themepark game.

How about some details on how this ship is OP and then suggest some constructive solutions as to how to correct it.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#1779 - 2013-10-18 16:07:01 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Markku Laaksonen wrote:
The Tears Must Flow, release this overpowered ships for Vaju Enki's Tears.


I don't think you understand, it's not my tears that will flow if this ships are released like this, i will only fly this two ships, no point in flying anything else.

Powercreep is bad in sandbox mmo-rpg games, this is not a themepark game.

How about some details on how this ship is OP and then suggest some constructive solutions as to how to correct it.


Why would anyone fly any other frigate/cruiser classe ship if you can fly this two powerfull combat ships that can also be cloaked ?

What's the downside of this overpowered ships? The price? The frigate costs 50b and 100b for the cruiser? You lose SP if you lose the ships?

The Tears Must Flow
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1780 - 2013-10-18 16:23:25 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

How about some details on how this ship is OP and then suggest some constructive solutions as to how to correct it.


Why would anyone fly any other frigate/cruiser classe ship if you can fly this two powerfull combat ships that can also be cloaked ?

What's the downside of this overpowered ships? The price? The frigate costs 50b and 100b for the cruiser? You lose SP if you lose the ships?


Merely re-stating your point does not answer his question at all. I, too, am curious for the requested information.

Please actually answer the question instead of merely ignoring or attempting to deflect it.

Additionally, the aforementioned "constructive solutions" are also missing from your reply.