These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#641 - 2013-10-18 10:33:55 UTC
To the people complaining this won't create conflict, the siphons will never generate conflict as long as the POS owner can use the guns to destroy them. APIs and notifications wouldn't increase conflict, only make it easier for people who don't monitor their space to maximize their profit.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#642 - 2013-10-18 10:36:35 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
To the people complaining this won't create conflict, the siphons will never generate conflict as long as the POS owner can use the guns to destroy them. APIs and notifications wouldn't increase conflict, only make it easier for people who don't monitor their space to maximize their profit.


I don't think the issue is 'they are bad because they won't create conflict', so much as it is 'hey, CCP, you're claiming these will create conflict, and they blatantly won't.' Which is a subtle thing, but it's not the lack of content being the source of irritation, but the blatant failure of CCP to see the blindingly obvious way this plays out.
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#643 - 2013-10-18 10:42:48 UTC
Dear goons

Please never, ever, ever change.


New update on the siphon stats:
Harvest 30 pages of goon tears per day .
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#644 - 2013-10-18 10:43:15 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
To the people complaining this won't create conflict, the siphons will never generate conflict as long as the POS owner can use the guns to destroy them. APIs and notifications wouldn't increase conflict, only make it easier for people who don't monitor their space to maximize their profit.


I don't think the issue is 'they are bad because they won't create conflict', so much as it is 'hey, CCP, you're claiming these will create conflict, and they blatantly won't.' Which is a subtle thing, but it's not the lack of content being the source of irritation, but the blatant failure of CCP to see the blindingly obvious way this plays out.



I think you both misunderstand the meaning of "conflict".
Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#645 - 2013-10-18 10:46:22 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Neave LaFontaine wrote:
Anyone else notice the high level of goon tears in this thread?


You know, it never ceases to amaze me that with GSF up over 10,000 people, to say nothing of the rest of the CFC, people see a half-dozen goons pointing out blatantly obvious flaws in mechanics (and/or trolling the people who inevitably crop up to defend anything purely because the goons say it's not a good idea) and decide that's a 'high level of goon tears'.

Really? One of the largest, most active groups in the game, with a history of delving into the mechanics of the game looking for the loopholes and problems CCP refuses to see until GSF goes ahead and rubs someone's nose in it, has multiple people posting in a thread about mechanics - the very same people who post on all of these mechanics threads, no less - and you think that's somehow significant?


Never underestimate the power of confirmation bias from the "elite PVP players who hate goons (which is most of them)" of eve.


Let me put this bluntly, in terms of Sov war the CFC is the elite of Eve.


Probably true.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#646 - 2013-10-18 10:50:12 UTC
Conflict driver 1

This should be blindingly obvious: very few people will destroy a siphon without checking/taking its contents first. Anchor a siphon, anchor a bubble, cloak just outside. Kill the POS gunner in an iteron who comes out to grab back his moon mins.


Conflict driver 2

Anchor a siphon, they destroy it with POS guns. When they go offline anchor another, they destroy it. Repeat. Sooner or later they will have to take proper precautions to stop you doing this, or give up and let you steal goo.


Conflict driver 3

Small gang X sets up siphons all over alliance Y's space. Prior to this mechanic, small gang X is essentially irrelevant to alliance Y, but now they are at least an annoyance and at best a many-hundred million isk a day sink that MUST be addressed by force

Conflict driver 4

Alliance X attacks alliance Y in a sov invasion. Alliance Y pays corp Z to go siphon EVERY R32/64 moon of Alliance X repeatedly. Alliance X loses income, or it's POS managers burn out. Alliance Y counterattacks.

Conflict driver 5

Alliance X RENTS moons in its space to Renter Y. Those moons get constantly siphoned. Either Renter Y gets pissed at Alliance X for not keeping the roaming siphon gangs out, or else it cant afford it's rent.




Theres an infinite number of other scenarios. This will be interesting!
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#647 - 2013-10-18 10:50:43 UTC
Miner Hottie wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Miner Hottie wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Neave LaFontaine wrote:
Anyone else notice the high level of goon tears in this thread?


You know, it never ceases to amaze me that with GSF up over 10,000 people, to say nothing of the rest of the CFC, people see a half-dozen goons pointing out blatantly obvious flaws in mechanics (and/or trolling the people who inevitably crop up to defend anything purely because the goons say it's not a good idea) and decide that's a 'high level of goon tears'.

Really? One of the largest, most active groups in the game, with a history of delving into the mechanics of the game looking for the loopholes and problems CCP refuses to see until GSF goes ahead and rubs someone's nose in it, has multiple people posting in a thread about mechanics - the very same people who post on all of these mechanics threads, no less - and you think that's somehow significant?


Never underestimate the power of confirmation bias from the "elite PVP players who hate goons (which is most of them)" of eve.


Let me put this bluntly, in terms of Sov war the CFC is the elite of Eve.


Probably true.


Only because in Eve sov war numbers and timezone coverage >>>>>> all
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#648 - 2013-10-18 10:53:50 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Quote:
Yeah I totally wish smugglers and thieves would send me an ETA. "Ohhey by the way we are going to start digging a tunnel in this section of the border. We'll both be there at noon."


You want a space empire, you have to actually patrol it. Sorry.


playing whack-a-mole with moles that only show up for seconds on a HUGE playing field is not exactly fun. a well designed feature would have introduced meaningful interaction for both parties. the currently planned implementation avoids every possible interaction between players. that's just plain stupid

Time to scrap moon mining then!

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#649 - 2013-10-18 10:56:20 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

Time to scrap moon mining then!


Moon mining is not, and has never been, a good kind of gameplay mechanic.
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#650 - 2013-10-18 10:57:34 UTC
Royaldo wrote:
How will this generate any sort of pvp when you have no idea **** is actually happening?


It wouldn't generate PVP if you did know it was happening, you'd blap them with POS guns and go back to doing whatever you were before.

If you're occupying the space where your towers are this be a problem.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#651 - 2013-10-18 11:01:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Marzetti
Lallante wrote:
Dear goons

Please never, ever, ever change.


New update on the siphon stats:
Harvest 30 pages of goon tears per day .


I never get tired of reading "lol goon tears!!!1" posts. You know, I don't pay a lot of attention to this dumb game, but I've seen this play out numerous times over the years exactly this way:

CCP: Smile Presenting new feature X!
Goons: Roll X is horribly unbalanced.
Pubbies: Lol Hahaha goonie tears goonie tears!!!!1
Goons: vSmilev Well okay then, we're going to exploit the hell out of X.
Pubbies: Cry Goons are exploiting X!
CCP: What? We're nerfing X.
Pubbies: Lol Hahaha goonie tears goonie tears!!!!1

I mean, y'all literally have the long term memory of that guy from Memento. Is it really any wonder that we have so little regard for the vast majority of you?
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#652 - 2013-10-18 11:02:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Speedkermit Damo
Helicity Boson wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

Time to scrap moon mining then!


Moon mining is not, and has never been, a good kind of gameplay mechanic.


At least not while it's AFK passive income.

Moon mining should be something a player has to get into a ship and undock for.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#653 - 2013-10-18 11:05:26 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Helicity Boson wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

Time to scrap moon mining then!


Moon mining is not, and has never been, a good kind of gameplay mechanic.


At least not whiles it's AFK passive income.

Moon mining should be something a player has to get into a ship and undock for.

Please explain to me how you take a moon from someone without undocking?

POSes are not passive income. POSes are PvP income. The only one CCP currently provides.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#654 - 2013-10-18 11:05:39 UTC
Quote:
Conflict driver 1

This should be blindingly obvious: very few people will destroy a siphon without checking/taking its contents first. Anchor a siphon, anchor a bubble, cloak just outside. Kill the POS gunner in an iteron who comes out to grab back his moon mins.


i actually see this as a pvp opportunity. you may kill a T1 Hauler. Awesome and exciting PVP content. especially the "wait for X hours for someone to log in" part

Quote:
Conflict driver 2

Anchor a siphon, they destroy it with POS guns. When they go offline anchor another, they destroy it. Repeat. Sooner or later they will have to take proper precautions to stop you doing this, or give up and let you steal goo.


both, the anchoring and the destruction are incredibly boring activities. Can you please tell me about those "proper precautions you plan to take ? an ocean of bubble around your pos ? Sounds exciting. Hint: there is no practical way to stop someone in a cloakie ship.

Quote:
Conflict driver 3

Small gang X sets up siphons all over alliance Y's space. Prior to this mechanic, small gang X is essentially irrelevant to alliance Y, but now they are at least an annoyance and at best a many-hundred million isk a day sink that MUST be addressed by force


please elaborate how you want to adress this ? by rapecaging the station this small gang stages from ? Sounds really exciting and fun.

Quote:
Conflict driver 4

Alliance X attacks alliance Y in a sov invasion. Alliance Y pays corp Z to go siphon EVERY R32/64 moon of Alliance X repeatedly. Alliance X loses income, or it's POS managers burn out. Alliance Y counterattacks.


Yes please, let's all **** of people in leadership positions even more. their life is way to easy nowadays.

Quote:
Conflict driver 5

Alliance X RENTS moons in its space to Renter Y. Those moons get constantly siphoned. Either Renter Y gets pissed at Alliance X for not keeping the roaming siphon gangs out, or else it cant afford it's rent.


there won't be roaming gangs. there will be roaming cloakie haulers.
We as landlords can do absolutely nothing against this. just like it is with AFK-Cloakies or roaming BLOPs gangs today.



Theres an infinite number of other scenarios. This will be interesting


no, it won't
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#655 - 2013-10-18 11:05:56 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Helicity Boson wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

Time to scrap moon mining then!


Moon mining is not, and has never been, a good kind of gameplay mechanic.


At least not whiles it's AFK passive income.

Moon mining should be something a player has to get into a ship and undock for.


Because belt mining is totally not an AFK mechanic.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#656 - 2013-10-18 11:09:14 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
SMT008 wrote:
I guess I'll just spam the hell out of them and see what happens/how much money I'll get/how much tears I'll get.

Happy times for everyone but the one who gets his stuff stolen.



so i heard TRI is reforming... you upset some of your brosefs are leaving?


My brosefs will be brosefs until death do us apart. Being in another internet space alliance is outside of my giving-a-damn zone.

Anyway. What I actually want to see is the other sorts of deployable. Especially the depot thing. Smile
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#657 - 2013-10-18 11:11:08 UTC
Lallante wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
To the people complaining this won't create conflict, the siphons will never generate conflict as long as the POS owner can use the guns to destroy them. APIs and notifications wouldn't increase conflict, only make it easier for people who don't monitor their space to maximize their profit.


I don't think the issue is 'they are bad because they won't create conflict', so much as it is 'hey, CCP, you're claiming these will create conflict, and they blatantly won't.' Which is a subtle thing, but it's not the lack of content being the source of irritation, but the blatant failure of CCP to see the blindingly obvious way this plays out.



I think you both misunderstand the meaning of "conflict".


People in EVE usually associate conflict with PVP, not with two opposing forces/interests.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#658 - 2013-10-18 11:18:50 UTC
The reality is few people will bother with siphons outside of null conflicts, once they realize you are unlikely to profit from them.

Why? Because smart players will just fly around and loot Siphons placed by someone else and save themselves the 10m investment.
KAT3
Cutting Edge Incorporated
#659 - 2013-10-18 11:22:13 UTC
I can remember when player owned stations where introduced. We had to fuel them with small industrial ships, and heavily guarded freighter fleets were used to go to empire to bring back the fuel necessary to keep them running. Then Poses became the tool by which an entity would challenge a corporation's sov holdings. Pos work was unbearably time consuming and 0.0 players wanted to pvp instead of putting up, taking down (which was painfully slow work) and tending to poses. CCP started to give some help - and then more help ! Challenging sov no longer required having the most poses in a given system. Jump freighters, fuel blocks, poses that only need to be fueled once every 30 days, and poses that can be set up and taken down relatively quickly compared to days of old. Now CCP feels a need to balance all the buffs they have given to Pos maintenance and upkeep. This seems to be a cyclical pattern not with just poses but with all aspects of the game. First we buff, then we nerf, then we buff, then we nerf, or we introduce some new content that is suppose to re-balance the unbalance we created in the past.. I guess it does keep a lot of programmers working in Iceland, and hey -- we all get free program upgrades full of buffs and nerfs.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#660 - 2013-10-18 11:22:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Lallante wrote:
Dear goons

Please never, ever, ever change.


New update on the siphon stats:
Harvest 30 pages of goon tears per day .


I never get tired of reading "lol goon tears!!!1" posts. You know, I don't pay a lot of attention to this dumb game, but I've seen this play out numerous times over the years exactly this way:

CCP: Smile Presenting new feature X!
Goons: Roll X is horribly unbalanced.
Pubbies: Lol Hahaha goonie tears goonie tears!!!!1
Goons: vSmilev Well okay then, we're going to exploit the hell out of X.
Pubbies: Cry Goons are exploiting X!
CCP: What? We're nerfing X.
Pubbies: Lol Hahaha goonie tears goonie tears!!!!1

I mean, y'all literally have the long term memory of that guy from Momento. Is it really any wonder that we have so little regard for the vast majority of you?


That is quite a naive comment when you actively cultivate your collective persona as griefers and scammers.

Tell me, what would the public goon response be to a change that was good for smaller groups but bad for CFC? Because whatever the truth, I guarantee that the vast majority of pubbies would say 'exactly the same'.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.