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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#441 - 2013-10-17 21:47:18 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

How long will you and your pilots be content becoming exactly what you despise? Farmers that spend large amounts of time grinding ISK... which is exactly what you will be.


Alright let's just play mythbusters here.

The pope ***** and trees make sound when they fall in the wods.

Goons already farm ISK and rat, and are exceedingly efficient at it.

Then we use that ISK to fund fun stuff.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#442 - 2013-10-17 21:47:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Sven Viko VIkolander
So far as I am understanding this issue :

1) It seems very unlikely that any use of the siphons, by itself, is going to cause a large rise in T2 ship cost. More likely, market speculation and direct manipulation of prices (e.g. by the goons) is going to cause fluctuation in the prices, if anything.

2) Why do people care if large entities like the goonsperg get massively richer off changes? Even the FW exploit didn't mess up the economy enough for the average player to notice/care much.

3) That said, the siphons seem like they could be most useful for very small and/or solo players living in fairly uninhabited space with a hostile moon mining POS in system. Pop a few siphons down overnight and collect a few dozen million isk before someone wastes some time coming out to the boonies to clean them up. That's not going to hurt most POS owners, but for the solo or small gang group it is a nice bit of isk, and it helps them.

Am I missing something?
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#443 - 2013-10-17 21:47:51 UTC
Zappity wrote:
A comment on the goon renter plans.

The plan to distribute the valuable moons to the renters and make it their problem seems like a knee-jerk reaction which is surprising. The value of moons in the presence of these new units will be devalued relative to current and I doubt that renters will pay 'whatever you tell them', at least after a couple of months have passed.

Second, this would leave you entirely open to economic attack. If you rely solely on rental income, what prevents PBLRD as a bloc from ceasing rental payments and pocketing the moon goo income? Their own revenue stream would be unaffected and I doubt you have the firepower, in the absence of both moon revenue and rental income, to subdue them all in time.


Say what. You really have no idea how renters work do you?

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#444 - 2013-10-17 21:49:01 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Second, this would leave you entirely open to economic attack. If you rely solely on rental income, what prevents PBLRD as a bloc from ceasing rental payments and pocketing the moon goo income? Their own revenue stream would be unaffected and I doubt you have the firepower, in the absence of both moon revenue and rental income, to subdue them all in time.



I don't know, the fact that we control PBLRD and will kick/remove docking rights/come down like the fist of an angry god on any corp that gets uppity and tries to be spartacus?

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#445 - 2013-10-17 21:49:22 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Zappity wrote:
A comment on the goon renter plans.

The plan to distribute the valuable moons to the renters and make it their problem seems like a knee-jerk reaction which is surprising. The value of moons in the presence of these new units will be devalued relative to current and I doubt that renters will pay 'whatever you tell them', at least after a couple of months have passed.

Second, this would leave you entirely open to economic attack. If you rely solely on rental income, what prevents PBLRD as a bloc from ceasing rental payments and pocketing the moon goo income? Their own revenue stream would be unaffected and I doubt you have the firepower, in the absence of both moon revenue and rental income, to subdue them all in time.


Say what. You really have no idea how renters work do you?


He seems to think that renters would, overnight, turn themselves into a unified cohesive bloc with all the normal organization, drive and tools that a real alliance does, and declare themselves independent from us.


So no, he really doesn't have any idea how renters work.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Courthouse
Perkone
Caldari State
#446 - 2013-10-17 21:49:40 UTC
Zappity wrote:
1. CCP, make the units percentage based and apply a stacking penalty. In their current iteration these will just be dropped to prevent harvesting rather than for theft.

2. CCP, you really need to fix AFK cloaking along with this.


You realize, of course, that at 100 units per hour production, arguing for a percentage adjustment is basically no different from saying "I think it should be X value instead of Y."

Because percent.


per centum - look it up.
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#447 - 2013-10-17 21:52:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Unforgiven Storm
another thing I also don't agree is the compression ratio used for the ciphon.

so a small siphon size is 20m3 and can fit 1200m3, but a pos silo size is 4000m3 and can fit 20000m3...

a pos silo is 1 to 5 ration a siphon is a 1 to 60 !!!!

c'mon this is totally wrong.

please review the syphon size so similar things have similar sizes vs cargo holds ratios! it doesn't need to have the same similar ratio to size number, but it should be more closer than it is at this moment.

I suggest 50m3 for siphons if you compromise dropping silos to 2000m3.

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#448 - 2013-10-17 21:54:20 UTC
Krios Ahzek wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

How long will you and your pilots be content becoming exactly what you despise? Farmers that spend large amounts of time grinding ISK... which is exactly what you will be.


Alright let's just play mythbusters here.

The pope ***** and trees make sound when they fall in the wods.

Goons already farm ISK and rat, and are exceedingly efficient at it.

Then we use that ISK to fund fun stuff.

Except now your troops will be spending their normal ratting time dropping siphons or collecting from them... and since most of the time they won't be collecting anything worthwhile even from those few siphons that survive they will have to spend what would have been their "fun" time trying to rat their daily bread.

Look, I'm hugely in favor of the goons being able to exploit this to one degree or another... but as much as you are insisting otherwise I'm pretty sure you'll find more effective ways to do it than what you are proposing.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#449 - 2013-10-17 21:54:41 UTC
For all those thinking that 'lol they'll have to check their towers', sure, we can do that. We have 10,000 other people to help too. And it can be anyone in our coalition too. It's not like jumping into system and dscanning is hard, especially with the interceptor changes.

Or we can just pay people to drop these, for nearly nothing, on different groups and then hot drop them when they're killing them. But if they use pos guns, and only controlling MAX 5 guns, that would take some time. And we know people hate grinding structures, but we generally love it.

It's a bad implementation and CCP should feel bad.
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#450 - 2013-10-17 21:54:52 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:


Still not seeing this working as an effective grief tool, or even as an effective market manipulation device.


This video will explain it.
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#451 - 2013-10-17 21:55:28 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Krios Ahzek wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

How long will you and your pilots be content becoming exactly what you despise? Farmers that spend large amounts of time grinding ISK... which is exactly what you will be.


Alright let's just play mythbusters here.

The pope ***** and trees make sound when they fall in the wods.

Goons already farm ISK and rat, and are exceedingly efficient at it.

Then we use that ISK to fund fun stuff.

Except now your troops will be spending their normal ratting time dropping siphons or collecting from them... and since most of the time they won't be collecting anything worthwhile even from those few siphons that survive they will have to spend what would have been their "fun" time trying to rat their daily bread.

Look, I'm hugely in favor of the goons being able to exploit this to one degree or another... but as much as you are insisting otherwise I'm pretty sure you'll find more effective ways to do it than what you are proposing.


Except alts.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#452 - 2013-10-17 21:55:35 UTC
mynnna wrote:

Contrary to all the whining from the poors about how moons are some hugely valuable and completely AFK wealth generator, they are in fact a wealth generator that would make a newbie in highsec laugh. A moon generates 100 units per hour. Right now, Dysprosium is the most valuable mineral in the game, at about 50k per unit. Go ahead, do the math on the hourly income, then calculate 60% of that. I'll wait. When you find that number, that's your take for dropping one.


Basically, I'm saying you ain't getting rich on these, kid.



yes one moon is worth not that much but many are... and from what i understand you guys have 100's of moon mining poses. so it does add up. though not as much as it used to be.

1. from what i understand you will tsf most of the moon poses to renters and leaving the defence in thier hands but increasing thier rent to offset. (a win win in your eyes)

2. I personally plan on syphoning your renters poses as i am making an assumption not all of them will protect thier poses. something goons said are fine with aslong as the bills are paid.

3. you guys stated that you will be setting up shyphon units in non cfc space to reduce output by 20%

4. you also said you have massive holding of said moon minerals and will be selling them for a healthy profit

5. i plan on slight margin trading that value from stolen pos mins thus taking advanatge of your plan and a healthy income.

6. personally i already have enough isk to sustain myself but will be more then happy to "chew the fat" and harass renters doing it. I mean renters can be babies and if they start loosing lots of isk they will want you guys to come and protect them... towhich you guys admit are reliant on renter income to continue your reinbursement policy. its going to be interesting how long the goon/renter dynamic lasts for before goons rage and purge said renters. Lather rinse repeat anyone?

7. if ccp just removed the 20% loss of units from the shyphon mechanic your plans would be eliminated.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#453 - 2013-10-17 21:56:54 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Krios Ahzek wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

How long will you and your pilots be content becoming exactly what you despise? Farmers that spend large amounts of time grinding ISK... which is exactly what you will be.


Alright let's just play mythbusters here.

The pope ***** and trees make sound when they fall in the wods.

Goons already farm ISK and rat, and are exceedingly efficient at it.

Then we use that ISK to fund fun stuff.

Except now your troops will be spending their normal ratting time dropping siphons or collecting from them... and since most of the time they won't be collecting anything worthwhile even from those few siphons that survive they will have to spend what would have been their "fun" time trying to rat their daily bread.

Look, I'm hugely in favor of the goons being able to exploit this to one degree or another... but as much as you are insisting otherwise I'm pretty sure you'll find more effective ways to do it than what you are proposing.



No seriously by you own ******** logic, wars and burn Jita couldn't ever happen.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#454 - 2013-10-17 21:58:27 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Zappity wrote:
A comment on the goon renter plans.

The plan to distribute the valuable moons to the renters and make it their problem seems like a knee-jerk reaction which is surprising. The value of moons in the presence of these new units will be devalued relative to current and I doubt that renters will pay 'whatever you tell them', at least after a couple of months have passed.

Second, this would leave you entirely open to economic attack. If you rely solely on rental income, what prevents PBLRD as a bloc from ceasing rental payments and pocketing the moon goo income? Their own revenue stream would be unaffected and I doubt you have the firepower, in the absence of both moon revenue and rental income, to subdue them all in time.


Say what. You really have no idea how renters work do you?


He seems to think that renters would, overnight, turn themselves into a unified cohesive bloc with all the normal organization, drive and tools that a real alliance does, and declare themselves independent from us.


So no, he really doesn't have any idea how renters work.


I think you are being wilfully blind to how the bloc could be gamed against you because you are desperate to find an easy solution which will maintain the status quo. I do not think they could turn themselves into a "unified cohesive bloc" anymore than highsec entities could. Not by themselves.

Much as I have enjoyed the coalition level tears in this thread I am in no hurry to see goons in particular fall. I make most of my isk by predicting mid term market responses to your long term manipulations.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#455 - 2013-10-17 21:59:02 UTC
Krios Ahzek wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Krios Ahzek wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

How long will you and your pilots be content becoming exactly what you despise? Farmers that spend large amounts of time grinding ISK... which is exactly what you will be.


Alright let's just play mythbusters here.

The pope ***** and trees make sound when they fall in the wods.

Goons already farm ISK and rat, and are exceedingly efficient at it.

Then we use that ISK to fund fun stuff.

Except now your troops will be spending their normal ratting time dropping siphons or collecting from them... and since most of the time they won't be collecting anything worthwhile even from those few siphons that survive they will have to spend what would have been their "fun" time trying to rat their daily bread.

Look, I'm hugely in favor of the goons being able to exploit this to one degree or another... but as much as you are insisting otherwise I'm pretty sure you'll find more effective ways to do it than what you are proposing.


Except alts.

Alts don't grant you more actual play time.

That's the point, it's not that you can't afford the effort. It's that the effort simply will take too much time better spent elsewhere on far less mindless (and profitable) activities.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#456 - 2013-10-17 21:59:07 UTC
mynnna wrote:


Look at all these goonie tea

wait I made that joke already.


I feel so bad for admiting you guys are usually correct in game design questions

i would much rather be like GRRR GOONS all the time :(
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#457 - 2013-10-17 21:59:23 UTC
I thought EVE Online was a skill-based RPG, but the word "skill" is not mentioned even once in the dev blog (I did a Ctrl+F search to make sure). I'm confused now...
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#458 - 2013-10-17 21:59:49 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
If you want siphons to promote PvP, and not terrible log-in-every-3-hours "gameplay", make them

a) invulnerable to POS guns (even manned)
b) send a mail to POS owner when anchored.

That way you know when an enemy sets them up in your space, and you have to put together a response fleet to take them down or lose income. As an attacker you can use them to bait defenders into a fight they can't just avoid (or they lose moongoo).


Nope

If you want the Siphon Unit to generate Fights you need a timer mechanic, so that the game dictates the time when the package full of juicy stuff can be picked up

a response fleet that just kills siphon units is nothing but smallscale structure grinding and incredibly boring.

a much better implementation of the siphon idea would be something like this:

1: deploy siphon unit
2: invulnerable siphon unit steals from tower for X hours. X can be influenced by the POS owner
3: after X hours, the siphon unit turns into a package full of juicy stuff after that time
4.1: only tower owner shows up - kills the unit, loots the package and gets his stuff (minus the waste) back
4.2: only siphon unit owner shows up - he loots the package and successfully stole from the tower owner
4.3: both partys show up - fight is possible
4.4: all the above + eventual third partys - multitude of possible scenarios

either way, the POS owner, the siphon owner and possible third parties all have strong incentives to actually show up.


man i hate timers... all they lead to is blob fights... please ccp do every thing you can to get rid of timers

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#459 - 2013-10-17 22:00:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Krios Ahzek
Zappity wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Zappity wrote:
A comment on the goon renter plans.

The plan to distribute the valuable moons to the renters and make it their problem seems like a knee-jerk reaction which is surprising. The value of moons in the presence of these new units will be devalued relative to current and I doubt that renters will pay 'whatever you tell them', at least after a couple of months have passed.

Second, this would leave you entirely open to economic attack. If you rely solely on rental income, what prevents PBLRD as a bloc from ceasing rental payments and pocketing the moon goo income? Their own revenue stream would be unaffected and I doubt you have the firepower, in the absence of both moon revenue and rental income, to subdue them all in time.


Say what. You really have no idea how renters work do you?


He seems to think that renters would, overnight, turn themselves into a unified cohesive bloc with all the normal organization, drive and tools that a real alliance does, and declare themselves independent from us.


So no, he really doesn't have any idea how renters work.


I think you are being wilfully blind to how the bloc could be gamed against you because you are desperate to find an easy solution which will maintain the status quo. I do not think they could turn themselves into a "unified cohesive bloc" anymore than highsec entities could. Not by themselves.

Much as I have enjoyed the coalition level tears in this thread I am in no hurry to see goons in particular fall. I make most of my isk by predicting mid term market responses to your long term manipulations.


Ok I'll spell it out of the mentally deficient.

Renters cannot rebel. If they did, they would lose station access. Renter alliance executor corps are not some sort of democratic publord senate, they are a tyrannic council of main alliance alts. Renters have very few capital ships. They do not work with other renter corps. Even if there WAS a mass rebellion, after every death they would have to go to the nearest NPC station to reship. This is not very different from fighting a regular nullsec war, except the enemies are bad and tiny.

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#460 - 2013-10-17 22:01:27 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
mynnna wrote:

Contrary to all the whining from the poors about how moons are some hugely valuable and completely AFK wealth generator, they are in fact a wealth generator that would make a newbie in highsec laugh. A moon generates 100 units per hour. Right now, Dysprosium is the most valuable mineral in the game, at about 50k per unit. Go ahead, do the math on the hourly income, then calculate 60% of that. I'll wait. When you find that number, that's your take for dropping one.


Basically, I'm saying you ain't getting rich on these, kid.



yes one moon is worth not that much but many are... and from what i understand you guys have 100's of moon mining poses. so it does add up. though not as much as it used to be.

1. from what i understand you will tsf most of the moon poses to renters and leaving the defence in thier hands but increasing thier rent to offset. (a win win in your eyes)

2. I personally plan on syphoning your renters poses as i am making an assumption not all of them will protect thier poses. something goons said are fine with aslong as the bills are paid.

3. you guys stated that you will be setting up shyphon units in non cfc space to reduce output by 20%

4. you also said you have massive holding of said moon minerals and will be selling them for a healthy profit

5. i plan on slight margin trading that value from stolen pos mins thus taking advanatge of your plan and a healthy income.

6. personally i already have enough isk to sustain myself but will be more then happy to "chew the fat" and harass renters doing it. I mean renters can be babies and if they start loosing lots of isk they will want you guys to come and protect them... towhich you guys admit are reliant on renter income to continue your reinbursement policy. its going to be interesting how long the goon/renter dynamic lasts for before goons rage and purge said renters. Lather rinse repeat anyone?

7. if ccp just removed the 20% loss of units from the shyphon mechanic your plans would be eliminated.


So you don't disagree with anything we have said. Great, now let me help you make the next leap of logic.

You could just skip all that and buy the r64s in Jita now and profit a lot more!

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.